123 réponses à ce sujet

[Snoopies]

medlish wrote...



Define real intelligence. Proof that you have free will. Actually I can reason that you only do what your evolution / your DNA tells you. There is no proof that we're different from a complex biological machine.
Also, you don't need to pull the "I have been a programmer" card on me because I am a programmer, I am bachelor of science and I'm active in the field of robotics.
I agree with your last part tough. Right now computers are not even partly capable of doing what we can do. But I can't say if this is because of the computer's nature of because if we humans are not capable of writing an intelligent program.

Not true that you only do what your DNA tells you to do, for instance people take the intellectual decision not to reproduce.  The ability to reason means that humans have become more than just code and chemical reactions.  But I believe you are correct with the complex biological machine, this certainly gives us limitations.

[Snoopies]

Dble post

Modifié par Snoopies, 18 février 2010 - 11:40 .

[FlintlockJazz]

Luc0s wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Anyone else notice that husks have four eyes? And that the reaper also had four eyes (well three actually but mostly because it just wasn't finished yet)?

Husks have four eyes?

Oh and Harbinger himself had four eyes too so...

I think they do, I noticed it in the cutscene on Eden Prime when you first fight them, but of course they could be something else entirely, or it could be that four eyes are a reaper trait (in which case are husks just smaller reapers in that case?).

[Pannamaslo]

Snoopies wrote...

medlish wrote...



Define real intelligence. Proof that you have free will. Actually I can reason that you only do what your evolution / your DNA tells you. There is no proof that we're different from a complex biological machine.
Also, you don't need to pull the "I have been a programmer" card on me because I am a programmer, I am bachelor of science and I'm active in the field of robotics.
I agree with your last part tough. Right now computers are not even partly capable of doing what we can do. But I can't say if this is because of the computer's nature of because if we humans are not capable of writing an intelligent program.

Not true that you only do what your DNA tells you to do, for  instance people take the intellectual decision not to reproduce.  The ability to reason means that humans have become more than just code and chemical reactions.  But I believe you are correct with the complex biological machine, this certainly gives us limitations.

From what I know you don't do only what DNA tells you, because it would totally ignore enviromental varaibles. DNA is a starting point which then is mold by enviromental factors. At leat this is what contemproray psychology believes. 

As far inteligence is conerned, it is wrong tu assume that inteligance are solely cognitive functions. There are also emotions, basic and complex. Emotions are a praimary source of motivation and motivation is a source of a growth. I can't imagine "inteligent" machines succsefull in evolution as human beings without concept of emotions. IMO component that is lacking to create real AI is comprehensionof emotions and motivation.

Modifié par Pannamaslo, 18 février 2010 - 12:11 .

[Arijharn]

Talogrungi wrote...
Interesting moral choice; if each Reaper is the last remnants of an entire civilization, would destroying the fleet account to genocide on a massive scale?

I don't believe there is a 'moral choice' when each Reaper represents the extinction of not just your species, but that of galactic civilisation.

As told by Legion, each Reaper is its own identity, and it was formed by millions of the species that spawned it, unvoluntarily. Even if they were individualistically aware, then surely they'd be aware of their actions and would want it stopped, and even if they didn't, who cares? You want to stop them because you don't want to become extinct.

[Talogrungi]

Arijharn wrote...

Talogrungi wrote...
Interesting moral choice; if each Reaper is the last remnants of an entire civilization, would destroying the fleet account to genocide on a massive scale?

I don't believe there is a 'moral choice' when each Reaper represents the extinction of not just your species, but that of galactic civilisation.

As told by Legion, each Reaper is its own identity, and it was formed by millions of the species that spawned it, unvoluntarily. Even if they were individualistically aware, then surely they'd be aware of their actions and would want it stopped, and even if they didn't, who cares? You want to stop them because you don't want to become extinct.

Hmm. I'm thinking in terms of what the moral choice for ME3's ending (we all know there'll be one) might be. What if it comes down to "destroy the reapers" or "redeem the reapers" .. ? .. if each Reaper is its own identity, then it's possible that they are merely pawns, controlled by indoctrination.

If one could break that indoctrination and free the Reapers instead of merely destroying them, would that not be the Paragon thing to do? .. it seems comparable to the "Free/Kill the Geth" choice from Legion's loyalty mission.

If we have the power to destroy them, and the ability to give them independance to coexist peacefully, then they are no longer a threat.

[Arijharn]

Exactly how would one 'free' a Reaper though? The idea is like destroying a geth mobile platform would liberate all the tiny geth programs.



Individually the Reaper 'components' are basically just minor AI processes (at least, that's how I interpreted it) but that doesn't mean they are individually 'aware' like you or I though. They have no body's they are sheets of organic metal wielded into each other basically.

[Talogrungi]

Arijharn wrote...

Exactly how would one 'free' a Reaper though? The idea is like destroying a geth mobile platform would liberate all the tiny geth programs.

Individually the Reaper 'components' are basically just minor AI processes (at least, that's how I interpreted it) but that doesn't mean they are individually 'aware' like you or I though. They have no body's they are sheets of organic metal wielded into each other basically.

I'm not talking about freeing the individual organics that went into the Reapers construction, I'm referring to the Reaper itself. Sovereign refers to himself as "I", as does Harbinger. If they are mere puppets, then it may be possible to cut their strings.

[Chromie]

"Assuming the Reapers are at least 37 million years old, and that they make a new Reaper every 50,000 years, Their minimum fleet size would be 738 ships (740 - Sovereign and the Derelict Reaper). However, there may be many more, as more than one Reaper could be created per cycle, the Reapers could be much older than 37 million years, and the cycle seems to be based on how fast organic life evolves rather than a fixed period between extinction events."



How many different races can Bioware think of?

[It IS Lupus]

[It IS Lupus]

Also, i wonder if we'll get to spend time inside of a live reaper in the 3rd game. it would be awesome fighting your way thru a reaper trying to get to its mass effect core and destroy it all the while having to fight collectors/husks/heretics(geth whatever ya wanna call them)/main enemy of me3 and being timed because spending too much time inside you'll become indoctrinated and die

[parthos27406]

Legion said that sovereign had many programs running that is why when you talk to sovereign in ME1 he says "we are many each a nation ...." my theory is that humans dna was not only required for the blueprint of the superstructure but provides the basis for the programs that run the reaper there is a theory that says ancestral knowledge is past through DNA maybe the reapers think using a more diverse genetic background means more knowledge.

or maybe they just wanted to use the DNA from the species that killed sovereign. the strong will survive. maybe that is the reward for the strongest species they live on through the reaper that is made from their DNA. which is why Harbinger said i am your destiny..... just thought i would throw that out there

[FlintlockJazz]

Well, considering that they really really wanted Shepard's body they obviously think that Shepard must have some qualities they want to take for themselves (rather like the borg), and are taking humans because they hope to at least distill some of the Shepmanliness out of them.

[Chrisimo79]

Snoopies wrote...

medlish wrote...



Define real intelligence. Proof that you have free will. Actually I can reason that you only do what your evolution / your DNA tells you. There is no proof that we're different from a complex biological machine.
Also, you don't need to pull the "I have been a programmer" card on me because I am a programmer, I am bachelor of science and I'm active in the field of robotics.
I agree with your last part tough. Right now computers are not even partly capable of doing what we can do. But I can't say if this is because of the computer's nature of because if we humans are not capable of writing an intelligent program.

Not true that you only do what your DNA tells you to do, for instance people take the intellectual decision not to reproduce.  The ability to reason means that humans have become more than just code and chemical reactions.  But I believe you are correct with the complex biological machine, this certainly gives us limitations.

No, the ability to reason just lets us act against our DNA programming. It doesn't mean we are more than just code.
I don't know if we have free will. Some scientists believe that our free will lies in the quantum world. I don't know if we have a free will. For now, I assume we do, because I don't want to think about the implications that we don't. But it is possible that everyhing in the universe is deterministic and could be predicted, our decisions included.

[Jimbe2693]

It goes inside a big reaper shell

[anmiro]

I made this Thread because I didn't understand the Collectors Logic behind building a giant human Reaper. And I think that at the end of my first play through that I got so hung up on that aspect of the story I missed some pretty important dialogue, which Sina84 pointed out earlier in the thread: 

Sina84 wrote...

There seems to be something more to it than just procreation, given what Harbinger says during the game. "We are your salvation through destruction", "We are the harbingers of your ascension". Implying that they concider the act of turning a species into a Reaper something of a blessing, like reaching a higher tier of existance for that species, as if turning the human race into a Reaper is humanities ascension into something greater, something eternal, a way for a species to be preserved forever at its full potential.

Sovereign was pretty clear that Reapers concider themselves the apex of existance, and all Reapers are converted civilisations.

I think this gives players a pretty good idea of the Reapers intentions. And it is backed by actual dialogue from the game.

Another issue that was brought up is to what end are the Collectors building this Human Reaper? Are they building it  so it can finish Sovereigns task and activate the Citadel Relay? Or were they simply building a new Reaper?

My answer to that is the Collectors are called the Collectors for a reason. The purpose of the Collectors is to collect information on the different races of the Galaxy and find a suitable candidate to create more Reapers. It logical to assume that before the Protheans were wiped out, there was another race who filled the role of the Collectors.

Modifié par anmiro, 18 février 2010 - 01:02 .

[UnAffectedFiddle]

I think the theory that each Reaper is made form the DNA of each cycles top dog is canon by now. Also consider Mordins view on the Collectors, they do not evolve or move forward any longer and essentially that is the whole purpose of the Reapers eating a new race. Without it they cannot move forward as a race as they dont appear to reproduce in the typical fashion of two giant ships hanging out behind a seedy porno bar having a quickie for a few credits.



How often is a Reaper killed during harvests is another question, we see a derelict one left to rot which suggests Reapers are shackled with technological limits i.e. didnt pick up the ship while tracking it, didnt mop up very well etc. It may also explain why they suddenly want human DNA, they just got their million year old plan thrown out by the newest race on the block.



Harbinger might very well be the Prothean Reaper. His incrediable control over the race may be another reason they harvest a races genetic material. Mental control may be stronger for each parents race. Whats intriguing is that TIM mentions Harbinger may have access to a better information source than either Cerberus or The Broker has access too.



Remember also, the Collectors have been buying species and using them as experiments for as long as people can remember. It wasnt until humanity kicked butt that they moved into the whole sale market.



What question I think we should look at now is if this is how the race evolves and grows, where the hell did these bastards start? Why do they also have very strong human referenced names?



Slight tangent. Huamnity is an agressive race, continual hints at some kind of unsual genetic combinations, observed and studied by Protheans. Which leads to an interesting hypothesis. Did the original Protheans desperately seek to make Humans diverse with altered gene stock they found/synthesised based off species from each cycle? In essence, a purely organic based new form of reapers to combat the reaper cycles? I mean, werent the Protheans supposedly wiped out long before we even hit the cave man state?



It just seems odd that the Reapers are being shown as a(now, theoretically) genetically diverse race while scientists and aliens are claiming Humanity is unique in its hugely diverse genetics as well? I believe Mordin says its simply more than speech, culture, art etc. Humanity can be used as a control point for many inter species testing, does that mean Humanity has the potential to splice strong characteristics from each race into its genetic make up?



This is why I save the Collectors Ship, with our supposed strange genetic make up can we follow Reaper technology to splice traits we want? Krogan regenerative propeties, Asari lifespan, Salarian intelligence etc.

[atheelogos]

anmiro wrote...

Does anyone have anything intelligent to add about why the Reapers want the Collectors to build a giant human Reaper? And why did it have to be made from real humans?

Thats like saying I'm going to grow a giant organic car and in order to do it, I need hundreds of thousands of cars.

The reason why? It sounds like a form of reproduction.
Why did it have to be made from real human?
Well Like EDI said Reapers are a mix of organic and non organic parts. So you need people to build one. Simple.

[atheelogos]

anmiro wrote...

I made this Thread because I didn't understand the Collectors Logic behind building a giant human Reaper. And I think that at the end of my first play through that I got so hung up on that aspect of the story I missed some pretty important dialogue, which Sina84 pointed out earlier in the thread: 

Sina84 wrote...

There seems to be something more to it than just procreation, given what Harbinger says during the game. "We are your salvation through destruction", "We are the harbingers of your ascension". Implying that they concider the act of turning a species into a Reaper something of a blessing, like reaching a higher tier of existance for that species, as if turning the human race into a Reaper is humanities ascension into something greater, something eternal, a way for a species to be preserved forever at its full potential.

Sovereign was pretty clear that Reapers concider themselves the apex of existance, and all Reapers are converted civilisations.

I think this gives players a pretty good idea of the Reapers intentions. And it is backed by actual dialogue from the game.

Another issue that was brought up is to what end are the Collectors building this Human Reaper? Are they building it  so it can finish Sovereigns task and activate the Citadel Relay? Or were they simply building a new Reaper?

My answer to that is the Collectors are called the Collectors for a reason. The purpose of the Collectors is to collect information on the different races of the Galaxy and find a suitable candidate to create more Reapers. It logical to assume that before the Protheans were wiped out, there was another race who filled the role of the Collectors.

Also this. What Sina84 said is correct in my opinion.

On a side note I wonder if the expansion of the universe has anything to do with their motives.

[atheelogos]

anmiro wrote...

Kerberus88 wrote...

anmiro wrote...

Does anyone have anything intelligent to add about why the Reapers want the Collectors to build a giant human Reaper? And why did it have to be made from real humans?

Thats like saying I'm going to grow a giant organic car and in order to do it, I need hundreds of thousands of cars.

Your analogy makes no sense. I need to melt down thousands of a non-organic object in order to make a giant organic object?
A better analogy is: I want to make a giant hamster car, let me melt down thousands of hamsters and put it in the shell of a car.

The reason the Collectors needed to melt down the humans is for their DNA. The DNA needs to be incorporated into the metal in order for the Reaper to be alive. DNA is very hard to make in a lab, so they just liqufied some humans.

P.S. Reapers aren't just machines, they are a machine organic hybrid. Hence the organic material.

I intentionally reversed the biological and mechanical parts. As you just did with this statement .

I want to make a giant hamster car, let me melt down thousands of hamsters and put it in the shell of a car. 

My point is, it doesnt make sense.

It doesn't make sense yet. We don't have all of the facts yet. And as[/b] Sovereign said " My kind transcends your very understanding". So we may never fully understand them.

[Snoopies]

Pannamaslo wrote...

From what I know you don't do only what DNA tells you, because it would totally ignore enviromental varaibles. DNA is a starting point which then is mold by enviromental factors. At leat this is what contemproray psychology believes. 

As far inteligence is conerned, it is wrong tu assume that inteligance are solely cognitive functions. There are also emotions, basic and complex. Emotions are a praimary source of motivation and motivation is a source of a growth. I can't imagine "inteligent" machines succsefull in evolution as human beings without concept of emotions. IMO component that is lacking to create real AI is comprehensionof emotions and motivation.

By DNA I also mean how you are coded to react to the environment and chemicals (emotions), I agree with you that a human has more that one set of motivations, and sometimes clearly conflicting ones exist.

As for Free will surely being able to act outside of what you are coded to do would suggest free will, even if someone/thing can predict exactly what you are going to do (we are going into the realms of God here, someone with perfect knowledge, and for the record I don't believe) does not mean you don't have free will.  Free will does not mean random, and if something is not truely random then in theory you can predict it.

[nitefyre410]

anmiro wrote...

Tandemir wrote...

Some of you people are looking into these things waaaaay too much. It's getting quite a bit ridiculous with the arguments about what is logical and what isn't. This is science fiction. Note the word "fiction". If it was science fact, NASA would be at Bioware asking them how to build a ship to fly to pluto to find the mass relay.

I'm going to state it once more, just in case it wasn't clear enough the first time.

SCIENCE ***********************FICTION***********************

The purpose of this thread was not to determine the "how", but the "why". My problem with end of the story is not how did the collectors build a giant human reaper, but why would they. I thought the questions was important because if  people can't give me a logical explanation as to  why, than the story really falls apart for me.

 


Why the Reapers wanted to build a human Reaper, several reasons, but only one sticks out to me.   Humans are very good a one thing, we excel at  it and that is killing... If it can be killed we will find a way to do it. the last  Reaper that any species disabled was the 37 million year old Reaper you got the IFF from.  It took 37 million years before Shepherd   killed Sovereign..I think the Reapers are looking at Humans as the next  species to ascend  in to being Reapers. 

[Vaenier]

I want to see the human reaper doing the back stroke through space and shooting lasers from its... uh nvm about the laser part... it really needs some underwear. X(

[Vaenier]

Snoopies wrote...
 Free will does not mean random, and if something is not truely random then in theory you can predict it.

The universe is one giant computer. every action can be predicted based on two simple things, position and velocity. think of it as a frictionless pool table. you hit a ball so it slide back and forth between two walls. you can always figure out where it will be because you know of its current position and velocity. add another ball. and another. it gets more complicated, but is still 100% predictable.
We dont have the power to see the position of everything and its velocity, but that does not mean it cant be done ever.
There is no free will, our existance has been determined when the universe first was created. The illusion of choice is made because we are blind to the forces around us.
I hit a pool ball, and now you will either hit back or miss completely based on your position. You can not change how you will reply to this, its been determined before anything even existed.
[/emo rant]