29 réponses à ce sujet

[Akai San Kaku Tou]

I have thought of some way of balancing Cryo skills through all levels of difficulty. The current problem with them is they are overpowerful in Veteran and below and extremely useless in Hardcore and above. I make the following suggestions:

-Make them capable of only freezing organic enemies with a health bar. So they will lose the ability to freeze FENSIR/LOKI/YMIR mechs and the Geth. At lower levels of difficulty Cryo Ammo is better than Distruptor Ammo against FENSIR/LOKI mechs which should not be the case in my oppinion.

-Reduce Improved Cryo Ammo and Deep Cryo Blast freeze duration to 5 from 7. In exchange make these advanced versions capable of freezing organic enemies who happen to have armor at half freeze duration (2.5 secs). So overall Cryo Ammo will be a better choice against minions whereas Warp and Armor Piercing Ammo will be much better against the elites and bosses (Scions, Praetorians, Gun Ships, Harbinger,  and the Thresher Maw)

Also ath higher difficulties husks and varren will still protected from biotics which happen to have extremely large areas of effect but will be vulnerable to these precise crowd control skills.

These adjustments will make them return to the game without breaking it. What are your thoughts?

Modifié par Akai San Kaku Tou, 17 février 2010 - 09:20 .

[Darnalak]

oh man, put on your flame suit Thisisme's gunna getcha.

[Akai San Kaku Tou]

Who is Thisisme, a moderator?

[thisisme8]

Darnalak wrote...

oh man, put on your flame suit Thisisme's gunna getcha.

I'll reply to this once I finish wiping the coffee off my monitor.  Holy crap, that's funny!

[Jaekahn]

thisisme8 wrote...

Darnalak wrote...

oh man, put on your flame suit Thisisme's gunna getcha.

I'll reply to this once I finish wiping the coffee off my monitor.  Holy crap, that's funny!

This should be interesting.

[Hailcloud]

Darnalak wrote...

oh man, put on your flame suit Thisisme's gunna getcha.

Hahaha! That's hilarious because I was just reading his Vanguard Insanity guide and I thought the exact same thing when I read this thread.

Also, to Akai :  He might as well be a moderator, at least on this topic.  I suggest reading Thisisme's guide to Vanguard on Insanity (linked in his sig) about how he utilizes squad Cryo Ammo.

I'm not saying Cryo Ammo is the best ammo power in the world, but it certainly isn't useless.  I think it all depends on each individual's playstyle.

[Hailcloud]

Jaekahn wrote...

thisisme8 wrote...

Darnalak wrote...

oh man, put on your flame suit Thisisme's gunna getcha.

I'll reply to this once I finish wiping the coffee off my monitor.  Holy crap, that's funny!

This should be interesting.

lol, yes.

[Akai San Kaku Tou]

I did not play the Vanguard; maybe the Squad Cryo Ammo complements the class; I would not know. But I finished the game with the Infiltrator and the Sentinel on Hardcore both. Cryo skills lose a lot of usefulness for these 2 classes; mine is only a suggestion to remedy the situation.

[Jaekahn]

Akai San Kaku Tou wrote...

I did not play the Vanguard; maybe the Squad Cryo Ammo complements the class; I would not know. But I finished the game with the Infiltrator and the Sentinel on Hardcore both. Cryo skills lose a lot of usefulness for these 2 classes; mine is only a suggestion to remedy the situation.

Thisisme8 is currently posting videos of his Infiltrator and you could see first hand how cryo ammo benefits his playstyle. Let me find the link. social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/128/index/1238419

[Hailcloud]

Akai San Kaku Tou wrote...

I did not play the Vanguard; maybe the Squad Cryo Ammo complements the class; I would not know. But I finished the game with the Infiltrator and the Sentinel on Hardcore both. Cryo skills lose a lot of usefulness for these 2 classes; mine is only a suggestion to remedy the situation.

Yea I'm sorry bud, I didn't mean to come across as jumping all over you and throwing your idea in the mud.  What you said is actually a pretty interesting idea.  It would be interesting to see the ability with some type of modifier against armor, etc.

[Darnalak]

Hailcloud wrote...

Akai San Kaku Tou wrote...

I did not play the Vanguard; maybe the Squad Cryo Ammo complements the class; I would not know. But I finished the game with the Infiltrator and the Sentinel on Hardcore both. Cryo skills lose a lot of usefulness for these 2 classes; mine is only a suggestion to remedy the situation.

Yea I'm sorry bud, I didn't mean to come across as jumping all over you and throwing your idea in the mud.  What you said is actually a pretty interesting idea.  It would be interesting to see the ability with some type of modifier against armor, etc.

Hah, wasn't my intent to blast the post either, I can understand the idea that it doesn't seem very useful  but there's alot of very Cryo-centric threads here showing just how useful it is    

[Akai San Kaku Tou]

ME2 - CQC Infiltrator 1 - Prof. Okeer I have watched this one before. Well it is doable but doable is different from optimal. If all the infiltrators are talking about whether to get AP Ammo or Warp as the 7th skill this clearly means Cryo Ammo a skill that can only be acquired by first investing another skill is subpar. thisisme8 can be a good player or like the concept freezing enemies but if he tried get rid of his enemies in a faster way I am sure he would accept that the Cryo path is not the best way to do it. After all anything is possible if you have talent.

Modifié par Akai San Kaku Tou, 17 février 2010 - 09:51 .

[RamsenC]

What if freeze abilities worked as a slow on protected enemies. So if they have a shield/armor they will just run and aim slowly,

[GCreature]

RamsenC wrote...

What if freeze abilities worked as a slow on protected enemies. So if they have a shield/armor they will just run and aim slowly,

That is a pretty cool idea.

But are freeze abilities so bad that they need to be patched? I'm not so sure. 

[thisisme8]

Wow, I don't even have to post anything... follow the links, check out some of the different ways it can be used. I'm a huge fan of Cryo but it's obviously not for everyone or every playstyle.



I use Squad Cryo in conjunction with Inferno Ammo on my Vanguard for great results since I can still get the damage bonus from Inferno while my Squadmates freeze other mobs while doing what they would be doing anyway: Shooting.



My Infiltrator only has 1 point in Cryo Ammo right now, but it has been enormously beneficial to me. I find it takes care of locking enemies down so I can get back into cover and heal up a bit before I get killed.

[Akai San Kaku Tou]

Freeze working as slow on armored enemies -> This is also a good idea to balance.

[rumination888]

Cryo Blast doesn't compliment anyone that can finish off an enemy in 4 seconds once theyre unprotected. It takes roughly 2 seconds for Cryo to freeze its target once it hits. If you're not up close, it takes 1-2 seconds for Cryo Blast just to reach its target. And if you are up close, your weapons gain a bonus to damage meaning you'll kill enemies even faster.

Cryo Ammo is meh on a Vanguard as much as it is on a Soldier/Infiltrator. If you want CC against unprotected synthetics, just bring Zaeed with you and turn his ammo into the squad version. If you want CC against unprotected organics, turn your own Incendiary Ammo into the squad version while using AP ammo for yourself. Both ways are a helluva lot more effective than Cryo Ammo.

I like RamsenC's idea. Always wondered why there were no abilities that actually slowed down enemies. That type of mechanic is classic.

Modifié par rumination888, 17 février 2010 - 09:59 .

[RamsenC]

GCreature wrote...

RamsenC wrote...

What if freeze abilities worked as a slow on protected enemies. So if they have a shield/armor they will just run and aim slowly,

That is a pretty cool idea.

But are freeze abilities so bad that they need to be patched? I'm not so sure. 

I don't even think they are bad, I just thought it was an interesting idea. In fact I use squad cryo ammo all the time. I'm not a fan of cryo blast though, but it does have a place on the engineer. 

Modifié par RamsenC, 17 février 2010 - 09:59 .

[Akai San Kaku Tou]

Darnalak wrote...

Hailcloud wrote...

Akai San Kaku Tou wrote...

I did not play the Vanguard; maybe the Squad Cryo Ammo complements the class; I would not know. But I finished the game with the Infiltrator and the Sentinel on Hardcore both. Cryo skills lose a lot of usefulness for these 2 classes; mine is only a suggestion to remedy the situation.

Yea I'm sorry bud, I didn't mean to come across as jumping all over you and throwing your idea in the mud.  What you said is actually a pretty interesting idea.  It would be interesting to see the ability with some type of modifier against armor, etc.

Hah, wasn't my intent to blast the post either, I can understand the idea that it doesn't seem very useful  but there's alot of very Cryo-centric threads here showing just how useful it is    

No probs; just wanted to post so thatI see whether I am alone in this. Well it seems some people incorporated the Cryo stuff into their game play. Some will say its useless on Hardcore and above and some will say it has its uses. Both can be true; but the thing everybody will agree on I guess is nobody will go all the way to maximize the skill. So the threads that are out there usually discuss whether to put 1 point in it or not. This is a problem the developers should know of in my humblest of oppinions hence the thread...

Modifié par Akai San Kaku Tou, 17 février 2010 - 10:01 .

[thisisme8]

Akai San Kaku Tou wrote...

ME2 - CQC Infiltrator 1 - Prof. Okeer I have watched this one before. Well it is doable but doable is different from optimal. If all the infiltrators are talking about whether to get AP Ammo or Warp as the 7th skill this clearly means Cryo Ammo a skill that can only be acquired by first investing another skill is subpar. thisisme8 can be a good player or like the concept freezing enemies but if he tried get rid of his enemies in a faster way I am sure he would accept that the Cryo path is not the best way to do it. After all anything is possible if you have talent.

Hehe, I should take that video down.  It was more of a test than anything else.  The other two are much better if you ask me.

Also, After my initial Vanguard run (and on all my new characters) I stopped using bonus powers so AP and Warp aren't going to help me unless I get the squad version from Garrus or Jack.  It might not be Über, but it's the way I play.

[D.Shepard]

Akai San Kaku Tou wrote...


-Make them capable of only freezing organic enemies with a health bar. So they will lose the ability to freeze FENSIR/LOKI/YMIR mechs and the Geth. At lower levels of difficulty Cryo Ammo is better than Distruptor Ammo against FENSIR/LOKI mechs which should not be the case in my oppinion.

I think the effectiveness of cryo ammo against syntetic targets is intentional and personally I really appreciate it. It's logical to suppose that such technology can affect both organic and syntetic targets.

The in-game explanation of this technology says: "A cooling laser collapses the ammunition into Bose-Einstein condensate, a mass of super-cooled subatomic particles capable of snap-freezing impacted objects."

Thus there should not difference between organic and syntetic targets because a Bose-Einstein condensate is, in very few and simple words, a state of matter near to absolute zero. Organic or Syntetic targets should be both  snap-freezed.

This the most common definition if anyone is interested:  Bose-Einstein condensate (BEC) is a state of matter of a dilute gas of weakly interacting bosons confined in an external potential and cooled to temperatures very near to absolute zero (0 K, -273.15 °C, or -459.67 °F).

[Akai San Kaku Tou]

The technology is so advanced that you can shoot it in an extreme velocity and it does not evaporate and snap freeze upon contanct (just joking ). Honestly a real BEC is so fragile that it is very hard to keep it from turning into gas much less shoot it at such velocity.

[Atmosfear3]

Cryo ammo, in my personal opinion, is used mainly as flavor. There is nothing cryo ammo can do that other ammo types can't do better. It definitely could use a buff of some sort, perhaps an accuracy modifier against affected targets so they don't shoot as accurately back at you (before defenses are stripped of course).

[WillieStyle]

I think Squad Cryo Ammo is very useful actually. If 33-50% of your enemies' total defenses are health it provides an almost 33% bonus to dps. And this dps bonus needn't come at the expense of your personal ammo bonus. You can put Tungsten ammo on your weapon, put cryo on your squad-mates' and reap the best of both worlds. It also crowd controls enemies once they are down to health reducing the damage they deal to you and stopping them from ducking behind cover. The prerequisite skills needed to get it are a bit of a pain, but it actually is a very powerful ability.

It does seem however, that cryo ammo is best for those using automatic weapons (SMGs and ARs). The chance to apply the effect doesn't seem to be normalized by attack speed or weapon damage, meaning a fast firing weapon will apply it faster and keep it on longer.



-Cryblast, on the other hand, does really seem to suffer in comparison to Pull. It provides a +100% damage bonus but so does Pull. On the other hand, it takes a couple seconds for the freeze effect to take hold, whereas Pull is near instantaneous. I think if they made Cryoblast freeze enemies faster, it would be fairly balanced.

[rumination888]

WillieStyle wrote...

I think Squad Cryo Ammo is very useful actually. If 33-50% of your enemies' total defenses are health it provides an almost 33% bonus to dps. And this dps bonus needn't come at the expense of your personal ammo bonus. You can put Tungsten ammo on your weapon, put cryo on your squad-mates' and reap the best of both worlds. It also crowd controls enemies once they are down to health reducing the damage they deal to you and stopping them from ducking behind cover. The prerequisite skills needed to get it are a bit of a pain, but it actually is a very powerful ability.
It does seem however, that cryo ammo is best for those using automatic weapons (SMGs and ARs). The chance to apply the effect doesn't seem to be normalized by attack speed or weapon damage, meaning a fast firing weapon will apply it faster and keep it on longer.

-Cryblast, on the other hand, does really seem to suffer in comparison to Pull. It provides a +100% damage bonus but so does Pull. On the other hand, it takes a couple seconds for the freeze effect to take hold, whereas Pull is near instantaneous. I think if they made Cryoblast freeze enemies faster, it would be fairly balanced.

Cryo Ammo suffers from the same thing as Cryo Blast: It takes time for the enemy to freeze once they're unprotected. They can shatter before they turn into a "ragdoll"(and most people who play with cryo ammo will see this), but that doesn't mean you were dealing more damage to them.