538 réponses à ce sujet

[Leonia]

Aye, that tends to be a trend with Bioware games though. The various LIs seem to be there not only for "fanservice" but also to encourage replayibility. It's just a shame that some people will miss out on so much dialogue as a result of it because not everyone wants to make a new Shepard just to have a decent chat with their squad-mates. Let's hope they do better in that regard with ME3.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Someone With Mass wrote...

I've noticed that people are using the word "fanservice" in such a negative tone sometimes.

I don't think there is anything wrong with fanservice, by the way. I only believe it shouldn't used so excessively that the quality of the actual game is declined due to it.

[Eudaemonium]

leonia42 wrote...

Aye, that tends to be a trend with Bioware games though. The various LIs seem to be there not only for "fanservice" but also to encourage replayibility. It's just a shame that some people will miss out on so much dialogue as a result of it because not everyone wants to make a new Shepard just to have a decent chat with their squad-mates. Let's hope they do better in that regard with ME3.

I don't know about "Bioware games". I felt DAO and to an extent DA2 managed to balance it quite well with its friendship and friendship/rivalry system. I felt like I got to know Morrigan, Leliana, Zevran, Alistair, Fenris, Anders, and Isabela well without needing to get any of them into bed. I think this was what bothered me most about Jack - I felt she needed a friend far, far more than she needed a boyfriend.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

leonia42 wrote...

Aye, that tends to be a trend with Bioware games though. The various LIs seem to be there not only for "fanservice" but also to encourage replayibility. It's just a shame that some people will miss out on so much dialogue as a result of it because not everyone wants to make a new Shepard just to have a decent chat with their squad-mates. Let's hope they do better in that regard with ME3.

I'm kinda... I don't know.

DA:O had so much more dialogue per character, but sometimes I felt like they were just being exposition faeries. "Yes, Alistair, tell me more about the history of the Grey Wardens. That's fascinating." Other times it was really good and juicy. A compromise between the two would be ideal, but Bioware's the main company that's even trying any of this, at this point. (There are a couple others, but I don't want to start that here.)

The problem is that apparently a lot of people who play Mass Effect don't bother to go back and talk to their squad very often, so the number of resources that can go into that stuff is lower. In conclusion - we need to hire ninjas to break into the houses of everyone who owns a copy of ME2, and have them walk around the ship and go through all the character dialogue. That'll mess up their demographics, and good!

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 21 avril 2011 - 12:32 .

[lovgreno]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Miranda's whole appearance is fanservice. Renegade Shepard's badass lines are fanservice. Recurring characters are fanservice. Seth Green is fanservice. Lair of the Shadow Broker is fanservice. Punching al'Jilani is fanservice. Paragon kiss interrupt is fanservice.

And all of it is bad, and detracted from ME2, making it super-cheesy. Except for Seth Green, who isn't exactly fan service, but a comic relief.

That is your personal opinion and point of wiev. Obviously the writers thought differently when they were thinking about what would make people pay money for the next game in the series. Unfourtunately for you it's the writers opinion that matters, not your or any single voice among all the opinions about ME around these parts of the internets.

[Alienmorph]

And even if they're just both fanservice? They ruin your gaming experience? They ruin the characterization of them? Basically the whole romance feature is fanservice... and there are characters like Liara and Thane that were made specifically for being romanced. At least G&T were first made as characters with a full background and/or some interesting subplots that involved them at first, and then made romanceable on hudge fans demand. So basically, yes... their romances ARE fanservice, but not more than any other romance option.

Also... when it has became an awful thing that BW tried to please two of the greatest groups of fans of the ME's saga? It's not like that BW put on a second layer the other romances in terms of quality to push to 'mance Garrus or Tali or so... the overall quality is the same.

[Someone With Mass]

Fiery Phoenix wrote...
I don't think there is anything wrong with fanservice, by the way. I only believe it shouldn't used so excessively that the quality of the actual game is declined due to it.

Yeah, I think the company giving the fans what they want in the game is a very good thing. Shows that they're paying attention to their fans.

[Barquiel]

Alienmorph wrote...

And even if they're just both fanservice? They ruin your gaming experience? They ruin the characterization of them? 

The gaming experience? no...

But Tali's romance ruined the character for me.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

lovgreno wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Miranda's whole appearance is fanservice. Renegade Shepard's badass lines are fanservice. Recurring characters are fanservice. Seth Green is fanservice. Lair of the Shadow Broker is fanservice. Punching al'Jilani is fanservice. Paragon kiss interrupt is fanservice.

And all of it is bad, and detracted from ME2, making it super-cheesy. Except for Seth Green, who isn't exactly fan service, but a comic relief.

That is your personal opinion and point of wiev. Obviously the writers thought differently when they were thinking about what would make people pay money for the next game in the series. Unfourtunately for you it's the writers opinion that matters, not your or any single voice among all the opinions about ME around these parts of the internets.

Also, writers and devs aren't always thinking about money (gasp!) they're often trying to balance marketability, plot and character. Once that's under control, a lot of the rest of the things they write are determined by what they want to write. If I really like a character, I'll stay two hours late every day for a week putting in a few more lines of dialogue for them. Now, they may get cut at the recording studio, but I'll try, and I'll do it for nothing.

I've done stuff "just for me" in the past that has gotten a lot of attention as being fanservice. But no, those five obscure nerdy references I snuck into that story arc? Those were for my own amusement. (Usual disclaimer: do not and have not worked for Bioware.)

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 21 avril 2011 - 12:41 .

[Leonia]

Eudaemonium wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

Aye, that tends to be a trend with Bioware games though. The various LIs seem to be there not only for "fanservice" but also to encourage replayibility. It's just a shame that some people will miss out on so much dialogue as a result of it because not everyone wants to make a new Shepard just to have a decent chat with their squad-mates. Let's hope they do better in that regard with ME3.

I don't know about "Bioware games". I felt DAO and to an extent DA2 managed to balance it quite well with its friendship and friendship/rivalry system. I felt like I got to know Morrigan, Leliana, Zevran, Alistair, Fenris, Anders, and Isabela well without needing to get any of them into bed. I think this was what bothered me most about Jack - I felt she needed a friend far, far more than she needed a boyfriend.

Eh, I don't know. For some characters the romance subplot added a lot (like Zevran) but others that were really important for the story (Morrigan and Alistair) had lots of exposition dialogue and friendly dialogue in addition to the romance stuff. The problem in Origins was that you ran out of dialogue once you "completed" the romances (or if you chose not to romance someone, you ran out earlier). DA2 helped a bit in that regard with the rivalry/friend system but I doubt we'll be getting anything that robust in ME3. 

I guess it's all a juggling act, isn't it? And with so many characters to keep track of in ME now, it's going to be hard to treat them all fairly. Hopefully the fan-favourites get the most attention though (in an ideal world, everyone would get the same amount but we know that ideal worlds don't truly exist).

Modifié par leonia42, 21 avril 2011 - 12:45 .

[Eudaemonium]

leonia42 wrote...

Eudaemonium wrote...

I don't know about "Bioware games". I felt DAO and to an extent DA2 managed to balance it quite well with its friendship and friendship/rivalry system. I felt like I got to know Morrigan, Leliana, Zevran, Alistair, Fenris, Anders, and Isabela well without needing to get any of them into bed. I think this was what bothered me most about Jack - I felt she needed a friend far, far more than she needed a boyfriend.

Eh, I don't know. For some characters the romance subplot added a lot (like Zevran) but others that were really important for the story (Morrigan and Alistair) had lots of exposition dialogue and friendly dialogue in addition to the romance stuff. The problem in Origins was that you ran out of dialogue once you "completed" the romances (or if you chose not to romance someone, you ran out of earlier). I guess it's a juggling act, isn't it? And with so many characters to keep track of now, it's going to be hard to treat them all fairly. Hopefully the fan-favourites get the most attention though.

You have a point. Though aside from the earing and a few dialogue lines you basically got the same dialogue from Zevran. My point was really that either way you learn about his past and form a close bond with him. Alistair and Morrigan have way more dialogue, though, you're right. But yeah, it's a juggling act. Like a lot of people I exhausted a lot of the DAO dialogues early in the game. Both DA2 and ME2 added pacing elements that made this impossible to do, either through the story structure or another mechanic (in ME2, for example, dialogues become available after missions and/or 24 hours).

A lot of the characters in ME2 had about as much individual dialogue as the companions in DAO: Awakening. Given the party banter, Awakening's might have even had more. Granted, there were 12/13 of them and a VA'd protagonist as opposed to 6 and a silent one, but still its kinda sad.

EDIT: I think fan-favourites getting more screen-time is pretty certain. I just hope it doesn't actually detract from the narrative. That said, characters like Mordin, Wrex, Tali and Legion all seem to have the potential to be major characters, so we'll wait and see.

Modifié par Eudaemonium, 21 avril 2011 - 12:52 .

[Alienmorph]

Barquiel wrote...

Alienmorph wrote...

And even if they're just both fanservice? They ruin your gaming experience? They ruin the characterization of them? 

The gaming experience? no...

But Tali's romance ruined the character for me.

In part I can agree... I mean, if you treated her in a neutral or a renegade way it IS odd that you find out she had a secret crush for you. BW should have fixed a bit that part... like when they made Garrus unromancealbe if he wasn't recruited in ME1. Other than that, I don't big flaws in Tali's characterization... at least not bigger than the Horizon's chat with the VS, or than turning Liara from a timid nerdy asari into a killing machine thirsty of the SB's blood.  

[CroGamer002]

Barquiel wrote...

Alienmorph wrote...

And even if they're just both fanservice? They ruin your gaming experience? They ruin the characterization of them? 

The gaming experience? no...

But Tali's romance ruined the character for me.

How?

[LadyJaneGrey]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I'm kinda... I don't know.

DA:O had so much more dialogue per character, but sometimes I felt like they were just being exposition faeries. "Yes, Alistair, tell me more about the history of the Grey Wardens. That's fascinating." Other times it was really good and juicy. A compromise between the two would be ideal, but Bioware's the main company that's even trying any of this, at this point. (There are a couple others, but I don't want to start that here.)

Oh, come on.  Who doesn't want to hear Leliana's incredilby long stories every time they play?  

[Merchant2006]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

This was a problem for everybody in ME2.

"There's a lot to do, Shepard, maybe another time."
"Already? I'm not big on forcing these talks."
"I'm not interested in joining your little girl club, Shepard."
"I would like to reflect on our previous conversation."
"I have to clean the engines."
"CALIBRATIONS!!!!"

Meanwhile, Grunt prefers the tank, Samara is meditating, Legion is building consensus, and Mordin is getting into epic shenanigans in his lab.

I think Bioware underestimated how much people would talk to certain characters...

You're right there, I suppose every character on the Normandy suffered from "Lackofchat-itis" and as much as fanservice goes, it was irritating knowing that the only way to speak to a character more was by way of romance. And even then the chat was just awkward "Hey Shepard I installed XXX programs into my suit lol" or "Uhhh I like supple bodies... I mean... uh... wait that came out wrong... NO NOT THAT WAY, oh man" with Tali and Garrus respectively.

Sure we learnt about them, but talking to them about 2 times for conversation sake... the rest was linked to Loyalty/Romance, and the latter being inaccessible if you did not persue it. Atleast if they do a fanservice, they should do it properly. Not being annoyed at garrusfans and talimancers but rather that they asked for this and.. well... yeah, we got fanservice. We learnt more about them characters but DAMMIT GARRUS, CALIBRATIONS ARE NOT COOL.

Well I think we have all built a consensus that fanservice did actually limit the dialogue. No Romance = no chat, but look at the romance dialogue.. it was just "hubba hubba" chat and nothing else to it.

[GodWood]

Mesina2 wrote...

Barquiel wrote...
But Tali's romance ruined the character for me.

How?

I personally think Tali's crush on Shepard became an overly defining aspect of her personality and thus ruined her character for me.

[Leonia]

Merchant2006 wrote...

Well I think we have all built a consensus that fanservice did actually limit the dialogue. No Romance = no chat, but look at the romance dialogue.. it was just "hubba hubba" chat and nothing else to it.

I'm not so sure of that. I'd wager that the limit on dialogue was due to the addition of 11 new squad-mates and the pacing of the game.

Modifié par leonia42, 21 avril 2011 - 01:25 .

[Dean_the_Young]

GodWood wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Barquiel wrote...
But Tali's romance ruined the character for me.

How?

I personally think Tali's crush on Shepard became an overly defining aspect of her personality and thus ruined her character for me.

The fact that they decided to go back and put her as an 'always crushing on the Commander' character, even in ME1, more or less did away with her independence as a character. Instead of 'the kickass ME1 Tali who would argue with Shepard if he ever contrasted with her views', she became to 'accept Shepard's view in all things, and only get angry in one of them.' Having all three Tali missions revolve around saving her from danger really didn't help her status as a nominally action-girl who could stand on her own.

[jellobell]

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

I've noticed that people are using the word "fanservice" in such a negative tone sometimes.

I don't think there is anything wrong with fanservice, by the way. I only believe it shouldn't used so excessively that the quality of the actual game is declined due to it.

I seriously doubt that Garrus and Tali returning had any significant effect on the amount of resources spent on character dialogue. You could argue that without Garrus and Tali, Zaeed and Kasumi may have been upgraded to "full squaddie" status, but that's neither here nor there.

As for the other complaint that their return was too forced and that they weren't plot-relevant enough, remember that the plot of ME2 is basically "Shepard needs a team. This team must be badass. Shepard goes out and collects badasses". Garrus, having become the Mass Effect equivalent of Batman, is very suited to being part of this plot. The fact that he is a much-loved character from ME1 is extra. Fanservice, if you will. Same goes for Tali. 

Modifié par jellobell, 21 avril 2011 - 01:32 .

[Chewin]

Wans't ME2 heavily directed to build up your relationship with your crew? Yeah, adding loyalty missions and few dialogs really 'builds up' the relationship, doesn't it?

[Redhot_1]

^Says the one who said a few days back that he would do anything to the one that rescued his sister from a couple of mercs...

[Naltair]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

]The fact that they decided to go back and put her as an 'always crushing on the Commander' character, even in ME1, more or less did away with her independence as a character. Instead of 'the kickass ME1 Tali who would argue with Shepard if he ever contrasted with her views', she became to 'accept Shepard's view in all things, and only get angry in one of them.' Having all three Tali missions revolve around saving her from danger really didn't help her status as a nominally action-girl who could stand on her own.

The very first time you meet Tali in ME1 you are rescuing her, that isn't to say she isn't an independent woman but she has a history of getting in over her head.

Modifié par Naltair, 21 avril 2011 - 01:56 .

[Chewin]

Redhot_1 wrote...

^Says the one who said a few days back that he would do anything to the one that rescued his sister from a couple of mercs...

You have a good memory.

That's a bad thing...

[Dean_the_Young]

Naltair wrote...

The very first time you meet Tali in ME1 you are rescuing her, that isn't to say she isn't an independent woman but she has a history of getting in over her head.

Yes, you're there to rescue her. And what is she doing at that point? She's fighting, and while she might go down she isn't just abiding it, and she wasn't simply sitting back to let other people fight her battles for her.

And really, that's the only point in ME1 when she needs rescuing from herself, and as far as introductions go that's fair. Once isn't a pattern. The rest of the time, she'll help and share but she'll stand up for her views, and she isn't dependent on Shepard.

Tali only gained a 'history' of getting in over her head and needing to be saved when Mass Effect 2 invented it.

[Naltair]

Freedom's Progress: Hardly a rescue you pretty much work together and then she tends to the wounded while you take out the Mech.

Haelstrom: Is a rescue mission but she helps you along the way and the mission was already known to be highly dangerous to begin with.

The Trial: You assist Tali in clearing her name, or not, and she fights alongside you every step of the way. Being her "captain" your word has a ton of weight on the outcome but she isn't just some damsel.

Tali fights constantly, she may get in over her head at times but I think you are simplifying her role in these missions. The only one where you outright rescue her is Haelstrom.