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[Leonia]

Which is ironic because in ME1 she is still on her Pilgrimage and supposedly less experienced than she is in ME2. To her credit though, Tali says she can take care of herself in ME1..they did sort of change her personality a bit between games. Even FemShep gets a bit of fangurlism from Tali.

[Zulu_DFA]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

lovgreno wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Miranda's whole appearance is fanservice. Renegade Shepard's badass lines are fanservice. Recurring characters are fanservice. Seth Green is fanservice. Lair of the Shadow Broker is fanservice. Punching al'Jilani is fanservice. Paragon kiss interrupt is fanservice.

And all of it is bad, and detracted from ME2, making it super-cheesy. Except for Seth Green, who isn't exactly fan service, but a comic relief.

That is your personal opinion and point of wiev. Obviously the writers thought differently when they were thinking about what would make people pay money for the next game in the series. Unfourtunately for you it's the writers opinion that matters, not your or any single voice among all the opinions about ME around these parts of the internets.

Also, writers and devs aren't always thinking about money (gasp!) they're often trying to balance marketability, plot and character. Once that's under control, a lot of the rest of the things they write are determined by what they want to write. If I really like a character, I'll stay two hours late every day for a week putting in a few more lines of dialogue for them. Now, they may get cut at the recording studio, but I'll try, and I'll do it for nothing.
I've done stuff "just for me" in the past that has gotten a lot of attention as being fanservice. But no, those five obscure nerdy references I snuck into that story arc? Those were for my own amusement. (Usual disclaimer: do not and have not worked for Bioware.)

There are tons of games with under 20% fan service and over 80% of good game. I could make a list, but suffice it to say, ME1 is one of those.

ME2 is just about made of fan service. There are, of course, remnants of the original Mass Effect ideas and the overarching story, and even some genuine characters, but they just drown in the fan service.

[Naltair]

Opinions and made up statistics are not facts.

Modifié par Naltair, 21 avril 2011 - 02:39 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Imperium Alpha wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

lovgreno wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Miranda's whole appearance is fanservice. Renegade Shepard's badass lines are fanservice. Recurring characters are fanservice. Seth Green is fanservice. Lair of the Shadow Broker is fanservice. Punching al'Jilani is fanservice. Paragon kiss interrupt is fanservice.

And all of it is bad, and detracted from ME2, making it super-cheesy. Except for Seth Green, who isn't exactly fan service, but a comic relief.

That is your personal opinion and point of wiev. Obviously the writers thought differently when they were thinking about what would make people pay money for the next game in the series. Unfourtunately for you it's the writers opinion that matters, not your or any single voice among all the opinions about ME around these parts of the internets.

Also, writers and devs aren't always thinking about money (gasp!) they're often trying to balance marketability, plot and character. Once that's under control, a lot of the rest of the things they write are determined by what they want to write. If I really like a character, I'll stay two hours late every day for a week putting in a few more lines of dialogue for them. Now, they may get cut at the recording studio, but I'll try, and I'll do it for nothing.
I've done stuff "just for me" in the past that has gotten a lot of attention as being fanservice. But no, those five obscure nerdy references I snuck into that story arc? Those were for my own amusement. (Usual disclaimer: do not and have not worked for Bioware.)

There are tons of games with under 20% fan service and over 80% of good game. I could make a list, but suffice it to say, ME1 is one of those.

ME2 is just about made of fan service. There are, of course, remnants of the original Mass Effect ideas and the overarching story, and even some genuine characters, but they just drown in the fan service.

Isn't the point of a sequel to put more fan service in ? [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/policeman.png[/smilie][smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/cool.png[/smilie]

If this was true, we would be expecting to see Alyx Vance wearing bikini in the Arctic in HL2 Ep.3. Yet Gordon Freeman would be scrogging not her, but G-Man, every time he made an appearence. And instead of the Rocket Launcher there would be a Vortigont Poop Thrower on "5".

[jellobell]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
There are tons of games with under 20% fan service and over 80% of good game. I could make a list, but suffice it to say, ME1 is one of those.

ME2 is just about made of fan service. There are, of course, remnants of the original Mass Effect ideas and the overarching story, and even some genuine characters, but they just drown in the fan service.

ME2 definitely does have more fanservice than ME1, but it's a sequel, what do you expect? ME1's job was to draw people into the world, give them a starting point and get them aquainted with the IP. In ME2, you don't have to do that anymore, which leaves room for subtle nods towards stuff that fans enjoyed in the first one, or jokes that only the fans would get. This is all a form of fanservice, but it also serves to flesh out the world. Was the return of refund guy essential to the plot? No, but it was fun.

Once Bioware had the chance to read and respond to fan feedback, pretty much all of the changes are fanservice in one way or another, because it's what the fans wanted. Listening to fan feedback is what let Bioware make ME2 better than ME1. People wanted better combat, no inventory management, more dynamic cutscenes, etc. I'd rather have fanservice and get a better game as a result.

[Siansonea]

Ah, the age-old "fanservice" thread. You were sorely missed.

To answer the question posed by the thread title: Yes. Or, more accurately, "well duh".

To answer the unspoken question implied by the thread title: No, that's not necessarily a bad thing.

Now don't get me wrong, I am a card-carrying Tali Hater Extraordinaire. Never liked her in the first game, and continued to dislike her in the second game. Would never pursue a romance with her except as a joke. But a lot of people did like the character, and even though I have other issues with her fanbase, I don't begrudge them the fact that they got something they wanted. And I would even say that BioWare did a good job of implementing the Tali romance, for what it is, it could have been done a lot worse. It made a lot of players happy, and that helps my favorite game thrive, so yay Tali romance. And the fact that you have the option to choose Tali in the game makes your decision NOT to choose Tali all the more meaningful. My point? Giving me options that I didn't ask for and that I don't want actually enhances my gaming experience by reinforcing the options that I do actively choose.

So yeah, it's fanservice, whatever that means. So are a lot of things. Whatever. What's your point?

I think the point of threads like this is to fight over who's a bigger nerd for liking this or that character or whatever. Well, I'll settle that once and for all, I'm the biggest nerd, so the rest of you are just playing for second place.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled flame war.

[Leonia]

Siansonea II wrote...

Giving me options that I didn't ask for and that I don't want actually enhances my gaming experience by reinforcing the options that I do actively choose.

This comment.. love it so much.

Modifié par leonia42, 21 avril 2011 - 03:22 .

[AdmiralCheez]

Siansonea II wrote...

We now return you to your regularly scheduled flame war.

I know I'm not adding anything to the discussion, but this made me giggle.

*ahem*

Anyway, I'll admit that I did not like how Tali devolved into a damsel in distress in ME2. However, she really didn't have much of a personality in ME1 (really, she was a bit of a walking codex entry), and in ME2 she could still very much disagree with Shepard. I mean, boy did she get pissed at me when I told her that taking back the homeworld was a stupid idea...

I hope she gets her strength back in ME3. Not only does it seem like a logical turn for her to take now that all her personal baggage has been dealt with, but my loathing of damsels in distress is the reason I didn't consider romancing Liara until I played LotSB.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

This thread is still here since I last posted? Who brought this year old thread back up? Smh.....

Sometimes this forum really lets me down.....

[CroGamer002]

Why are you guys still posting at necro thread?!

[AdmiralCheez]

Mesina2 wrote...

Why are you guys still posting at necro thread?!

Why make a new one to discuss the same damn thing?

[Zulu_DFA]

jellobell wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

There are tons of games with under 20% fan service and over 80% of good game. I could make a list, but suffice it to say, ME1 is one of those.

ME2 is just about made of fan service. There are, of course, remnants of the original Mass Effect ideas and the overarching story, and even some genuine characters, but they just drown in the fan service.

ME2 definitely does have more fanservice than ME1, but it's a sequel, what do you expect? ME1's job was to draw people into the world, give them a starting point and get them aquainted with the IP. In ME2, you don't have to do that anymore,

... that's why half the lore went straight to the trash bin (and this is not about the thermal clips, this is about talimance, no less). Right?

jellobell wrote...

which leaves room for subtle nods towards stuff that fans enjoyed in the first one, or jokes that only the fans would get. This is all a form of fanservice, but it also serves to flesh out the world. Was the return of refund guy essential to the plot? No, but it was fun.

Once Bioware had the chance to read and respond to fan feedback, pretty much all of the changes are fanservice in one way or another, because it's what the fans wanted. Listening to fan feedback is what let Bioware make ME2 better than ME1. People wanted better combat, no inventory management, more dynamic cutscenes, etc. I'd rather have fanservice and get a better game as a result.

I'm glad that you're happy with the result. But people like me, who are kind of fans too, and who were pretty much OK with everything and only wanted some tweaking here and there, are not. Therefore I can't but come to the conclusion that ME1 was so good because, naturally, there had been no feedback to listen to.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 21 avril 2011 - 03:28 .

[Avissel]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
... that's why half the lore went straight to the trash bin (and this is not about the thermal clips, this is about talimance, no less). Right?

wait..so now a romance with tali  is against lore?

"The Normandy 2 has a Bathroom, Normandy 1 did not! LORE RUINED"

[Almostfaceman]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Why are you guys still posting at necro thread?!

Why make a new one to discuss the same damn thing?

Exactly.  I actually like the idea of necro threads - shows someone is paying attention and reading what's in the forum instead of just mindlessly bulldozing their way into the forum and posting a thread to feed their ego or whatever.

[Schattenkeil]

What you call fan service is what I call choice. The existances of the possibility to make good choices implies the existance of options to make bad once. To decide which is which is up to the individual player. The reason why there is so much "fan service" - and I guess to the previous speaker that includes all paragon paths - is because the game let's you choose.

However, the existance of a merely optional romance with Tali or Garrus does not make the game less enjoyable for anyone at all. In my concrete instance of the game there was no romance with either of them. But you must realize that this belongs to very concept of all recent Bioware games.

If you like a game less because, after you played through, you realize that there would have been options you didn't like and didn't take, that would have had consequences you hadn't liked you should play it, because that lies in the very nature of things.

Modifié par Schattenkeil, 21 avril 2011 - 03:47 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Avissel wrote...

wait..so now a romance with tali  is against lore?

That's right. Or, more precisely, it was always against the lore. Because in terms of science fiction (which this IP has been always advertised as) an ostrich is a more suitable "love interest" for a human, than an alien cyborg.

Granted, ME1 had this one exception with the Asari race, but it was at least "scientifically" explained, and it was a case when enough is enough.

But in ME2, it has T&A, therefore it must be had sex with. What kind of science fiction is that?

As to the bathrooms on the Normandy, I don't mind them, but I think SR-1 was just as all right without them.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 21 avril 2011 - 03:49 .

[Zen]

All I have to say is.. I would have never gotten with my boyfriend if we were incompatible as friends.

Garrus and I were bros for life.

In my opinion, they metered the conversations just fine. When he started talking about dat reach and flexibility, I literally found myself wondering what that would have looked like and actually blushed IRL. Because he was my friend, how can I be thinking of that ohmygod.

What would have made it better, is if they'd saved the do me line for the next conversation. Give Shepard some time to reflect on what was just said and come back after thinking about it.

Tali's was metered perfectly. My response to her quip about linking suits with someone she trusts felt natural.

Yes, they're fanservice. Every relationship was fanservice. The difference is in the pacing. I find more meaning in drawn out friendships that make you go wait a minute, you're actually not that ugly AND we get along great. WHOA.

Joker's the next logical LI for me.

:>

[MajesticJazz]

 My whole point is that it was wasted space to bring Garrus and Tali be simply for the idea that they can be romanced.

Yes, all of the romances in ME1 and ME2 and for every videogame for that matter IS fan service. That is not my arguement. My arguement is that those romances were always planned on being there.

Going back to Garrus/Tali. Bioware didn't bring them back because they were physically the best squadmembers in ME1 and they would give Shepard a better chance at fighting the Collectors. Bioware didn't bring them back because it was always planned for them to be in the 2nd game. Bioware didn't bring them back because it fit perfectly with the story. NO, the ONLY and I mean ONLY reason why Garrus/Tali are in the game as squad mates is because Bioware wanted to allow the Garrus/Tali ME1 fans to experience a romance for them and that is a very sad reason to bring them back.

From my perspective, I always believed that ALL ME1 squadmates would serve as a cameo in ME2 and then come back in ME3 for a much more larger and impactful role. Out of all the ME2 cameos, Liara got most of the attention but she was still a cameo, just like Wrex, and just like Ashley/Kaiden. I believe Garrus/Tali were to be the the same but were only sliced in there as squadmates because they won the Bioware forums Mass Effect Idol contest.

With that being said, had Garrus/Tali not been in ME2 as squadmates, those two roles probably were meant for other interesting characters that we'll never know. Perhaps we were to have a new Turian or new Quarian with their own unqiue and interesting story. 

Also unlike Garrus, Tali does not fight within the overall theme of all the squadmembers which is also interesting. The theme of ME2 was that Shepard must ally herself/himself with some of the galaxy's most dangerous and darkest people in order to accomplish a mission that is all but impossible. 

- Shepard is allied with Cerberus, a human-centric group who will do anything to put humanity on top, even if it means the eradication of all alien species. (Miranda/Jacob)
-Shepard is allied with a trained assassin for hire.
-Shepard is allied with a merc for hire
-Shepard is allied with a theft for hire
-Shepard is allied with an ex-convict who has destroyed entire space stations and killed many others
-Shepard is allied with a scientist who deals with work that is morally unethical and kills without remorse.
-Shepard is allied with an Asari Justicar that lives by a strict code which in many ways, can lead to morally unethical decision making such as killing a police officer just for detaining her for a crime.
-Shepard must ally himself with a rogue vigilante.
-Shepard must ally himself with an out of control Krogan who is made up of pure rage.

Then we get to the Tali character:
-Shepard must ally himself with.....a Quarian that is a technical genius? Where is the badass in that?

Simply put, there isn't, which is why Tali is very inconsistent with all the other ME2 squadmates. She isn't "badass" or "dangerous" in the sense like the rest of the ME2 squadmates. She is trained in combat and good with tech, but so is thousands of other Quarians. I believe a Quarian character like Golo from Acension would have been a nice type of Quarian to have on your squad as he has that "Dangerous and possibly cannot be trusted" edge to him.

Which leads me to my next point about Garrus/Tali not fitting in with the rest of the ME2 squad. For the most part, initially most squadmembers are seen as if you cannot trust them. They were written with such edge that while they are with you, they still have that sense of danger to them in a way that they could not be trusted. However, Garrus and Tali are the only two that do not have that quality about them. Most people wouldn't find that bad but for me it is because it destroyed what ME2 was supposed to be about. The whole idea was that you must work with people that are in some ways bad and cannot be trusted, but you still need them because they are the only ones who have the skills you need to defeat the Collectors. In a sense, you or sort of selling your soul to the devil for a greater cause, such as working with Cerberus. Or course by the end of the game you developed their trust and so on but you had to work at it. Having Garrus/Tali there sort of "kills the mood" and constantly reminds me that they aren't there naturally but there because they were the most popular.

As much as I like the Ashley Williams character (A strong minded female who doesnt need a man) I am glad that she had a VERY minor role in ME3 because being with her in ME3 is going to be that much more interesting. Ashley didn't fit the role for a ME2 squadmate because I already have her trust and she really isn't bad/dangerous, just a well trained soldier.

This is why the notion to bring Garrus/Tali back just so that they can be romanced was just silly and very weak by Bioware. 

[Avissel]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
But in ME2, it has T&A, therefore it must be had sex with. What kind of science fiction is that?

Captain Kirk would like a word with you.

[Zen]

"Bioware didn't bring them back because it was always planned for them to be in the 2nd game."

I doubt this. On some level, they have to know what they want to do with their own game or it takes longer to actually pen the story.

The romance being an afterthought, I can understand. But I think they planned to have them back in regardless.

Avissel wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
But in ME2, it has T&A, therefore it must be had sex with. What kind of science fiction is that?

Captain Kirk would like a word with you.

BROFIST

Modifié par ZenX, 21 avril 2011 - 03:53 .

[Annie_Dear]

Avissel wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
But in ME2, it has T&A, therefore it must be had sex with. What kind of science fiction is that?

Captain Kirk would like a word with you.

This.

Modifié par Annie_Dear, 21 avril 2011 - 03:56 .

[Leonia]

@MajesticJazz: I think my Shepard would have refused to cooperate at all if she couldn't have at least one trusworthy team-mate on her team. As for Bioware not planning it.. I'd like to see proof of that.

Modifié par leonia42, 21 avril 2011 - 03:55 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Avissel wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

But in ME2, it has T&A, therefore it must be had sex with. What kind of science fiction is that?

Captain Kirk would like a word with you.

Charles Darwin would like a word with Captain Kirk.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 21 avril 2011 - 03:56 .

[Avissel]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Charles Darwin would like a word with Captain Kirk.

So...your arguemnt is that the theory of evolution means humans would never be attracted to none humans?

Or purely from the concept of "I cant produce off spring with this, so I must not do the freak nasty with it." ?

Ethier way, the real world proves both of those ideas to be false.