538 réponses à ce sujet

[Elite Midget]

I don't mind how the DA team handled it. It made it fair for everyone. If you wanted to romance so and so than they were open since everyone was Hawke-Sexual.

[Mr0TYuH]

Yes it was fan service, and, personally, I could have done without it. In ME1, you could influence Garrus to be either paragon or renegade. In ME2, that influence was dismissed with a single line. In its place you get a character that had virtually no interaction outside of his loyalty quest and romance. In ME1, Garrus was sort of my protege. In ME2, since I didn't romance him, he was a lump that was too busy calibrating the weapons to talk.

I'll admit that Tali was cute, but that mostly just means I felt bad about rejecting her. I'm annoyed that selecting "It's too dangerous," which I considered a "let her down easy" option to elicit a response of, "So, you are interested. Good to know."

Personally, I think the romances, overall, ended being a disservice to both characters, but more so to Garrus than Tali.

Of course, that is just my opinion.

[MrSwizleSticks]

I believe that it was fan service. Rather unneccassary fan service if anything. 

Modifié par MrSwizleSticks, 22 avril 2011 - 09:24 .

[Zubie]

Obvious fanservice. Not sure if it was the romance or just the general direction they took Tali but I used to really like her in ME1 but now I just cannot stand her. Really, when I first heard Garrus and Tali were going to be LIs I thought it was just a stupid rumor. Not to say Garrus' romance is poorly written though.

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]Ye Olde Gamer wrote...

[/quote]
Engineer Adams considers Tali "amazing."  Coming from the chief engineer of the most advanced starship in the Alliance Navy, that sounds like fairly high praise to me.  Obviously, Tali isn't a combat monster, but she's still more of a combatant than most engineers.   So I'd say her case for "best of the best" status seems solid.  It's at least as good as Thane, Jacob, or Okeer, IMHO.  Combine that with the fact that she's already worked with Shepard and is familiar with the Reapers, and I have a hard time imagining what Shepard would be looking for in a "better" techie.

[/quote]Engineer Adams is a mechanic. When Engineer Adams commends her, I well accept her capability as a mechanic. I wouldn't carry over the expectation towards 'best of the best' on a combat team any more than I would presume that an an excellent aircraft carrier mechanic makes a superb combat engineer.

Thane, Jacob, and even Okeer all share that they have superb histories and capabilities in combat. Recruiting Tali to polish the Normandy's handle, and possibly Shepard's handle if that's what Shepard wants? Sure. But that's back-row support, unlike the depiction of pretty much everyone else, who are special forces equivalents all the way down.

[quote]
You're rushing to save Tali's team, yes, but Tali herself never seems to be in any danger; she's just busy treating the wounded.  That seems fine to me; Tali doesn't have to leap into combat at every opportunity just to prove how badass she is.[/quote]Not being helpless in her own situations, however, would do infinitely more to actually support her being a strong, self-supporting character who doesn't need Shepard continually as a crutch. Which, from a 'best of the best' team, we should reasonably expect: it's not a bad thing when Shepard comes in to give someone a hand, but when that pretty much all that provides that character's characterization, that's a problem.

I mean, look at what we have on Lazarus station. Epic Cerberus failure, total disaster, etc. YMIR's and mechs rampant. And what are our exposures to Jacob and Miranda? Miranda is taking charge, assertive, and makes an impressive entrance when we aren't sure if we need to rescue her or not. Jacob is trading shots with mechs, and his introductory combat sequence has him taking down most of them with biotics. Yes, Shepard had to help them, but they were definitely making a stand of their own. Compare that to, say, hiding in a shed, or hiding in a bunker, and Tali loses a lot of standing vis-a-vis the crew already. Most companions recruitments and intros had them being active characters: Tali is incredibly passive, unlike her own introduction in ME1.

This is carried even more to their loyalty missions, when the entire point is that Shepard is around to help people. Jacob doesn't need Shepard to resolve his life issues: Shepard barely qualifies as the Taxi driver in that quest. Miranda's mission is indisputably a matter of Miranda asserting and driving the pace: Shepard's just a component in HER private fight.

Tali? Tali gets relegated to Shepard's shadow. In her own trial. Many characters require Shepard's help to succede in the mission, but they are the ones who drive the plot. Mordin's loyalty mission may require Shepard's help, but it's fundamentally about Mordin's involvement in the genophage. Samara may need Shepard to be bait, but it's a mission about her and Morinth.

Tali's? Shepaqrd is the defense, Shepard drives the assault on the ship, and even in the conclusion Tali's barely a footnote to Shepard's own suggestion of the direction of the Flotilla. The Biggest Choice Tali was ever related to, the entire basis behind her own trial, has precisely zero Tali involvement.

That is a sad, sad state to be in.



(I realize I'm ranting in exasperation here: please don't think I'm arguing too much at you, personall.)

[Centauri2002]

I'm not a huge Tali fan but I didn't dislike her either. I didn't find her weak and helpless in comparison to the other ME2 squad members. She just had a different role to play. She's an engineer first and foremost. Her tech abilities are what make her stand out. She's not a combatant like Jacob or a leader like Miranda. So I don't see her role in certain situations as diminishing her as a character.

They each have their part to play, as I see it.

Modifié par centauri2002, 22 avril 2011 - 11:14 .

[Mylene]

All the romances are just fan service imo.

[Centauri2002]

Mylene wrote...

All the romances are just fan service imo.

The entire game is there to service the fans, which in turn services BioWare's wallets.

I think most parts of a game can be argued to be fan service. But I don't necessarily see anything wrong with wanting to please the fans, as long as it doesn't detract from the integrity of the game itself. 

Modifié par centauri2002, 22 avril 2011 - 11:26 .

[Dean_the_Young]

centauri2002 wrote...

Mylene wrote...

All the romances are just fan service imo.

The entire game is there to service the fans, which in turn services BioWare's wallets.

I think most parts of a game can be argued to be fan service. But I don't necessarily see anything wrong with wanting to please the fans, as long as it doesn't detract from the integrity of the game itself. 

Fanservice is a distinction term between a general story's progress (which, as a work of fiction, is for the fans), and additions whose only purpose isn't to help the story but rather to please some aspect of the fanbase.

It's the equivalent of the cleavage or pany shot: does showcasing the massive bosom-canyon of Samara in any way advance the story, aid in characterization, or any other distinct purpose? Are the numerous Miranda ass-shots anything but appeals to hormones?  Just why does Jacob's uniform showcase his abs just so?

If, say, Miranda (or Jacob) were revealed to have been selected, and their appearances chosen, in an attempt to try and seduce Commander Shepard (and if, to reflect that, either one would make moves on Commander Shepard), then their sexualized appearance would have a point. Mirand would be a seductress who, in attempting to trick Shepard, win his heart, and twist his loyalty to Cerberus, might (or might not) actually fall in love with Shepard. Something similar with Jacob.

But there was no such point, or part, for them. Their sexualization is just that, and for no other point.

That's the sort of thing people point towards when using 'fanservice' as a derogatory term.

[Destroy Raiden_]

No I don't I think it was a natural progression of their characters. Weather Garrus chooses to stay a LI with shep is another matter.


EDIT: and I agree with dean Miranda's ass shots = fanservice

Tali and Garrus romances are not.

Modifié par Destroy Raiden , 22 avril 2011 - 04:48 .

[Clonedzero]

absolutely. 100% fan service.
i didnt even get the impression that taurians could be attracted to humans in the first place in ME1. i play male shepard a majority of the time so i never really encounter the possible romance so it bothers me less. but still it seems really forced.

and a romantic relationship with a quarian is so impractical it doesnt even make sense. tali was more of a walking codex page in ME1 than anything else. she's completely neutral to you all of ME1 and then in ME2 she's like all over you, its really really weird. personally i thought it was rather forced and out of character. also i find her being a squadmate rather than a pure engineer on the ship to be kinda dumb as well. no combat training, is a member of a species that can easily get infected in a combat situation and is a fairly large liability in the field because of it. i dont hate tali, i just feel her character is really forced.

[Gyroscopic_Trout]

Every character, whether they be party members or random npcs, in every Bioware game has some fan group demanding a romance for them.  Everyone.  Except Jacob. 

My point is, they could have made the Volus ambassador a love interest in ME2 and we'd still be sitting here debating whether or not it was fan service.

[Ye Olde Gamer]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Ye Olde Gamer wrote...
Engineer Adams considers Tali "amazing."  Coming from the chief engineer of the most advanced starship in the Alliance Navy, that sounds like fairly high praise to me.  Obviously, Tali isn't a combat monster, but she's still more of a combatant than most engineers.   So I'd say her case for "best of the best" status seems solid.  It's at least as good as Thane, Jacob, or Okeer, IMHO.  Combine that with the fact that she's already worked with Shepard and is familiar with the Reapers, and I have a hard time imagining what Shepard would be looking for in a "better" techie.

Engineer Adams is a mechanic. When Engineer Adams commends her, I well accept her capability as a mechanic. I wouldn't carry over the expectation towards 'best of the best' on a combat team any more than I would presume that an an excellent aircraft carrier mechanic makes a superb combat engineer.

Thane, Jacob, and even Okeer all share that they have superb histories and capabilities in combat. Recruiting Tali to polish the Normandy's handle, and possibly Shepard's handle if that's what Shepard wants? Sure. But that's back-row support, unlike the depiction of pretty much everyone else, who are special forces equivalents all the way down.

Adams is the Chief Engineer of a the Normandy; that's more than just a mechanic.

But as to her combat credentials, who cares?  She's not on the team to shoot at things, she's on the team to solve tech problems.  The fact that she's at all combat capable is already putting her well above average.  It's like Mordin; he's a decent combatant, but he's mostly reliant on people underestimating him.  In a serious firefight (like the suicide mission), he's pretty fragile - even more so than Tali.

The team is supposed to be the "best of the best" at what they do.  For some of them, that's combat.  For others (like Mordin, Kasumi, or Okeer), it's non-combat stuff.  Tali's supposed to be our tech expert, and she certainly fits that bill.  She gives the CBT shield upgrades for the Normandy 2, and she can safely bypass the locked doors on the collector base.  What more would she have to do to qualify as the 'best' tech in the galaxy in your eyes?

You're rushing to save Tali's team, yes, but Tali herself never seems to be in any danger; she's just busy treating the wounded.  That seems fine to me; Tali doesn't have to leap into combat at every opportunity just to prove how badass she is.

Not being helpless in her own situations, however, would do infinitely more to actually support her being a strong, self-supporting character who doesn't need Shepard continually as a crutch. Which, from a 'best of the best' team, we should reasonably expect: it's not a bad thing when Shepard comes in to give someone a hand, but when that pretty much all that provides that character's characterization, that's a problem.

I mean, look at what we have on Lazarus station. Epic Cerberus failure, total disaster, etc. YMIR's and mechs rampant. And what are our exposures to Jacob and Miranda? Miranda is taking charge, assertive, and makes an impressive entrance when we aren't sure if we need to rescue her or not. Jacob is trading shots with mechs, and his introductory combat sequence has him taking down most of them with biotics. Yes, Shepard had to help them, but they were definitely making a stand of their own. Compare that to, say, hiding in a shed, or hiding in a bunker, and Tali loses a lot of standing vis-a-vis the crew already. Most companions recruitments and intros had them being active characters: Tali is incredibly passive, unlike her own introduction in ME1.

Tali isn't "passive," she's just not participating in combat.  She's trying to do her job, which is leading and protecting the quarian team.  You could, I suppose, say she did a terrible job of it, since Prazza wasted no time in defying her.  That's a fair criticism.  But I'm not sure how much we should read into that, either.  Tali is new at command, and the quarians are supposed to be extremely distrusting of Cerberus.

This is carried even more to their loyalty missions, when the entire point is that Shepard is around to help people. Jacob doesn't need Shepard to resolve his life issues: Shepard barely qualifies as the Taxi driver in that quest. Miranda's mission is indisputably a matter of Miranda asserting and driving the pace: Shepard's just a component in HER private fight.

Tali? Tali gets relegated to Shepard's shadow. In her own trial. Many characters require Shepard's help to succede in the mission, but they are the ones who drive the plot. Mordin's loyalty mission may require Shepard's help, but it's fundamentally about Mordin's involvement in the genophage. Samara may need Shepard to be bait, but it's a mission about her and Morinth.

Tali's? Shepaqrd is the defense, Shepard drives the assault on the ship, and even in the conclusion Tali's barely a footnote to Shepard's own suggestion of the direction of the Flotilla. The Biggest Choice Tali was ever related to, the entire basis behind her own trial, has precisely zero Tali involvement.

That is a sad, sad state to be in.

Hold on.  Tali is every bit as active in the assault on the Alarei as Jacob or Miranda were in their loyalty missions.  Shepard always drives the assault, because he's the PC.  But it's not like Tali was imprisoned on the Neema, waiting for Shepard to finish the fight for her.

As to Tali's passivity, I think there are two separate issues here.  The first is if her behavior is out of character based on ME1.  The second is if the writers are deliberately making her the victim to emphasize how weak and helpless she is.

On the first issue, I'd have to say her character seems pretty consistent to me; she's always been somewhat deferential to authority.  In ME1, Tali will *ask* Shepard to give her a copy of the Geth data for her Pilgrimage.  She won't take a copy on her own initiative, nor will she insist she be brought along on to fight the Geth (the way Garrus and Wrex do on their own plot mission).  If you refuse to give her a copy of the data, she'll more or less stop talking to you, but she'll still follow your lead until you beat Saren.

So I don't see her behavior in the Trial as out of character.  She tells you explicitly what she wants, but she won't *demand* that you do it.  Besides, it's not clear that she has any choice in the matter: quarians are represented by their captain in trials.  Unless she has the option to represent herself (which is never mentioned), there's no way she could override your actions.  Even if she could, forgoing her captain's help would make it hard to lose the case without making people wonder why she didn't defend herself.  That risks having the secret come out anyway.  So all in all, I think her actions are consistent with what ME1 Tali would have done.

Now the second issue is much more complex, since only the writers can know for sure why they did something.  That said, I do think there was a conscious effort to put Tali through the wringer in ME2.  She sees most/all of her squad killed on Freedom's Progress and again on Haestrom, and the whole Treason story heaps so much misfortune on Tali it plays out almost like a Don Bluth film.  So Tali is certainly much less stoic and reserved than in ME1.

The reason I find this acceptable, however, is that I don't think the vulnerability she shows comes across as weakness of character.  Tali's squads are killed, but only due to ignoring her orders or plain bad luck.  No one (other than the Shadow Broker) ever implies that Tali screwed up.  I liked the next-of-kin letter she was working on in LotSB, too.

To me, Tali seems stronger for being able to endure all that emotional stress.  She comes to her own decision on what to do about the trial, and she's quite willing to accept exile in order to protect her father and the fleet.  Shepard doesn't make that decision for her.  Yes, the circumstances give you the option to defy her wishes or use your super-special-awesome-Shepard powers to get her off the hook anyway, but the fact remains that Tali could have handled this all on her own. 

Moreover, I find Tali's story in ME2 dovetails nicely with her story from ME; namely, that Tali is growing up.  In ME1 she's young and brash, and we see that she's able to handle danger.  In ME2 she's less brash and confident, because we see her coming to terms with the harder aspects of adulthood; responsibility, loss, and the general knowledge that the universe can have a cruel sense of humor at times.  But by the end, she seems  comfortable in her new role.  In short, I felt like Tali's story continued in ME2, which is something I can't say about the VS, Garrus, or (especially) Shepard.

Now the story isn't perfect, and I wish they'd shown her growth a little more clearly;  as I said before, I think they dropped the ball a bit on Haestrom and Legion was a criminally wasted opportunity.  But there's enough there that I can enjoy it as is.  Obviously, YMMV, but I found Tali's story in ME2 quite effective.

(I realize I'm ranting in exasperation here: please don't think I'm arguing too much at you, personall.)

No problem; I do see where you're coming from.  And I'll admit, I'll feel worse about ME2 if they don't continue the development and show Tali as an even more experienced, confident woman in ME3.

But honestly, that goes for a lot of the ME2 characters.  Whose insane idea was it to make the entire squad killable in the middle of the trilogy?!? *headdesk*

[thatguy212]

Were Garrus and Tali romances fan service? Yes, But the real question is will bioware be able to make it more than that in ME3

[Seboist]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

centauri2002 wrote...

Mylene wrote...

All the romances are just fan service imo.

The entire game is there to service the fans, which in turn services BioWare's wallets.

I think most parts of a game can be argued to be fan service. But I don't necessarily see anything wrong with wanting to please the fans, as long as it doesn't detract from the integrity of the game itself. 

Fanservice is a distinction term between a general story's progress (which, as a work of fiction, is for the fans), and additions whose only purpose isn't to help the story but rather to please some aspect of the fanbase.

It's the equivalent of the cleavage or pany shot: does showcasing the massive bosom-canyon of Samara in any way advance the story, aid in characterization, or any other distinct purpose? Are the numerous Miranda ass-shots anything but appeals to hormones?  Just why does Jacob's uniform showcase his abs just so?

If, say, Miranda (or Jacob) were revealed to have been selected, and their appearances chosen, in an attempt to try and seduce Commander Shepard (and if, to reflect that, either one would make moves on Commander Shepard), then their sexualized appearance would have a point. Mirand would be a seductress who, in attempting to trick Shepard, win his heart, and twist his loyalty to Cerberus, might (or might not) actually fall in love with Shepard. Something similar with Jacob.

But there was no such point, or part, for them. Their sexualization is just that, and for no other point.

That's the sort of thing people point towards when using 'fanservice' as a derogatory term.

I always found it weird that Morinth is more modestly dressed than Samara. She's supposed to be this "hedonist" degenerate but yet she dresses less provacatively than her mother who's supposed to be the strict conservative type.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Mass Effect has fan service?

OH NOES! D:

Whatever shall we do?!

Seriously, people, every game ever made is fan service. EVERY sequel to anything is fan service.

[M8DMAN]

I thought Tali's romace route was well written.

[Altered Idol]

I think it was definitely fan service but so what, serving the fans is what they are meant to do.

Its not something that is mandatory so I don't have a problem with it.

I liked having the choices presented to us in terms of romance options. The Tali romance was well executed in my opinion and is very believable. I've got a few different playthroughs with different romances in each of them.

I can't wait to see how they all play out in ME3.

[88mphSlayer]

fan service that ended up working pretty well

[lyssalu]

yes, they were purely fanservice. but all bioware romances are fanservice.

[TheBull]

Wasn't there a reply from Casey Hudson that went like: "I never expected people to have the desire to romance the guy with the chicken legs, so we gave it to them".
Personally i think in terms of the characters they are great.

[magnuskn]

Tali's romance was great and a natural progression from ME1. Fanservice? Only in the sense that "writing a story which makes your costumers happy" is that. Which should be what every publisher of stories should aspire to.