538 réponses à ce sujet

[Saber Wolf]

Chewin3 wrote...

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Haha, yep. That's what I call fan service

[magnuskn]

MajesticJazz wrote...

magnuskn wrote...

MajesticJazz wrote...

Thats just the thing I find interesting about the Tali romance. Unlike Miranda and Jack which offers some sort of resistance at first, Tali doesn't offer ANY challenge for Shepard. She basically implied that she always wanted to spread her legs for Shepard.

This is why I think a lot of guys like the Tali romance because she strokes Shepard's ego. This is where the "Shepard Cheerleader" notion comes from because she is like a male Shepard lap dog not to mention that she comes across as VERY emotionally/sexually submissive.

OR because Tali is an actual nice person ( being fictional nonwithstanding ), while Jack and Miranda are... not.

WRONG!

Mirand and Jack ARE nice people with a soft side, the thing is you as the man (male Shepard) has to find that soft spot....just like in a real relationship. I have known many women that initally seem like they have a block of ice around them, but after getting to know them and learning more about them, I find out that in actuallity, they aren't bad at all and have a really good personality.....it just took me some time to better understand them. Miranda and Jack's romances are the same. They might resist you at first or put up a wall, but eventually you learn more about them and this is where the romance is able to initiate.

With Tali, there was NEVER that wall. She basically just tells you to come on on. Being a nice person has nothing to do with it. I've known many nice, sweet, kind, and soft-spoken women but they never were "easy". They still had a wall that men had the break through before they were willing to take things to the next level. So Tali being nice is irrelevant.

You or anyone else can argue with me all you want but it is a FACT that Tali DOES NOT offer any resistance  to Shepard's advances just like Liara didn't offer any in ME1 but Ashley did. Hell, Ashley even makes fun of you when you try to say something romantic. She says something like "Damn, is that the best you can do?" or something to that nature. That is why I like the Ashley romance because she subtly lets it be known that she has some type of interest in Male Shepard, but she isn't obvious about it and as the man, you have to keep working at it because she fully commits and lets her emotions out to you. 

Going back to Tali, she pretty much serves as the Damsel in Distress. The male Knight in the shiny armor there to save the beautiful princess from the threat of danger and he does in her recruitment mission and again in ME1 when she was in trouble with Fist. 

There is nothing wrong with that because you like what you like. What I like doesn't mean that everyone else has to like. I am just saying that from my perspective, Tali came across as too....easy without any real resistance which as a guy, I find as a turn off as it makes the female looks needy.

Yeah, but you were expressing it in a way which made it sound like all Tali romance fans like Tali because you suppose her to be an "ego-stroke". I did like Tali because of her personality, that is why I chose the romance with her.

And, sorry, but I personally just don't like the ice queen and psycho bint archetypes that much, even if there is a nice person underneath somewhere.

Also, both are pretty much cold murderers.

Modifié par magnuskn, 23 avril 2011 - 09:23 .

[AngelicMachinery]

mrsph wrote...

Jack's romance screams "SHE JUST NEEDS A MAN TO FIX ALL OF HER PROBLEMS"

And I, well, I just don't like that.

I've never romanced her,  so maybe I'm missing something.

[Nashiktal]

Jack's romance is pretty much what mrsph just said, however you can distill ALL the romances into a one line stereotype. Which is fine, the three choices offer someone different for everyone.

Some people like Tali, some like Jack, and other like Miranda. I wouldn't have it any other way, as competition breeds improvement, for ALL the LI.

[AngelicMachinery]

Nashiktal wrote...

Jack's romance is pretty much what mrsph just said, however you can distill ALL the romances into a one line stereotype. Which is fine, the three choices offer someone different for everyone.

Some people like Tali, some like Jack, and other like Miranda. I wouldn't have it any other way, as competition breeds improvement, for ALL the LI.

Too bad,  I thought it was nice to have a hard as nails and destructive woman for her own sake instead of someone who needed to be fixed.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

Jack's romance is pretty much what mrsph just said, however you can distill ALL the romances into a one line stereotype. Which is fine, the three choices offer someone different for everyone.

Some people like Tali, some like Jack, and other like Miranda. I wouldn't have it any other way, as competition breeds improvement, for ALL the LI.

Too bad,  I thought it was nice to have a hard as nails and destructive woman for her own sake instead of someone who needed to be fixed.

Here's the thing - I love that kind of character too, but Jack gives off signals of having actual mental illness along with her "I'm crazy in a fun way" antics. If she had been a Deadpool-style happy, unfixable madman, I would have been upset if they "fixed" her in any way. But the kid clearly has PTSD, and a bunch of other actual psychological problems, so I'm a bit more understanding about the "therapy romance." It certainly doesn't come out of nowhere.

That said, you can treat someone's PTSD and still have them come out the other side tough as nails. I was kinda hoping for a way to do that, as a friendly, non-romantic Femshep. No dice, though.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 23 avril 2011 - 10:10 .

[Nashiktal]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

Jack's romance is pretty much what mrsph just said, however you can distill ALL the romances into a one line stereotype. Which is fine, the three choices offer someone different for everyone.

Some people like Tali, some like Jack, and other like Miranda. I wouldn't have it any other way, as competition breeds improvement, for ALL the LI.

Too bad,  I thought it was nice to have a hard as nails and destructive woman for her own sake instead of someone who needed to be fixed.

To be fair, jack is pretty much like that until shep forces her shell open.

[AngelicMachinery]

Nashiktal wrote...

AngelicMachinery wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

Jack's romance is pretty much what mrsph just said, however you can distill ALL the romances into a one line stereotype. Which is fine, the three choices offer someone different for everyone.

Some people like Tali, some like Jack, and other like Miranda. I wouldn't have it any other way, as competition breeds improvement, for ALL the LI.

Too bad,  I thought it was nice to have a hard as nails and destructive woman for her own sake instead of someone who needed to be fixed.

To be fair, jack is pretty much like that until shep forces her shell open.

Which I'm greatful for,  I'm kind of glad I didn't have the option of playing lover/shrink with her now.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

mrsph wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
That said, you can treat someone's PTSD and still have them come out the other side tough as nails. I was kinda hoping for a way to do that, as a friendly, non-romantic Femshep. No dice, though.

The only way you can fix problems in Mass Effect is with sex. No sex? Too bad! 

Look, all of us girls want a complex social links system where we can build friendships and progress each individual squadmates character development in a way that influences their performance in battle. But this ain't Sakura Taisen (this is a joke), and until we convince western male gamers to admit that they want this too, we're pretty well screwed as far as resources devoted to friendship simulation go.

[Nashiktal]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

mrsph wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
That said, you can treat someone's PTSD and still have them come out the other side tough as nails. I was kinda hoping for a way to do that, as a friendly, non-romantic Femshep. No dice, though.

The only way you can fix problems in Mass Effect is with sex. No sex? Too bad! 

Look, all of us girls want a complex social links system where we can build friendships and progress each individual squadmates character development in a way that influences their performance in battle. But this ain't Sakura Taisen (this is a joke), and until we convince western male gamers to admit that they want this too, we're pretty well screwed as far as resources devoted to friendship simulation go.

So you want to do what the japanese have been doing for a few decades now?

[Almostfaceman]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

mrsph wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
That said, you can treat someone's PTSD and still have them come out the other side tough as nails. I was kinda hoping for a way to do that, as a friendly, non-romantic Femshep. No dice, though.

The only way you can fix problems in Mass Effect is with sex. No sex? Too bad! 

Look, all of us girls want a complex social links system where we can build friendships and progress each individual squadmates character development in a way that influences their performance in battle. But this ain't Sakura Taisen (this is a joke), and until we convince western male gamers to admit that they want this too, we're pretty well screwed as far as resources devoted to friendship simulation go.

I'd like to hop aboard the "friendship is good" train as well - not attracted to Jack but felt the need as a fellow human to show her some decency and friendship.  Alas, yes, there is only so much Bioware can cram into the game it seems.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Nashiktal wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

mrsph wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
That said, you can treat someone's PTSD and still have them come out the other side tough as nails. I was kinda hoping for a way to do that, as a friendly, non-romantic Femshep. No dice, though.

The only way you can fix problems in Mass Effect is with sex. No sex? Too bad! 

Look, all of us girls want a complex social links system where we can build friendships and progress each individual squadmates character development in a way that influences their performance in battle. But this ain't Sakura Taisen (this is a joke), and until we convince western male gamers to admit that they want this too, we're pretty well screwed as far as resources devoted to friendship simulation go.

So you want to do what the japanese have been doing for a few decades now?

No. I want to do it better.

[AngelicMachinery]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

mrsph wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
That said, you can treat someone's PTSD and still have them come out the other side tough as nails. I was kinda hoping for a way to do that, as a friendly, non-romantic Femshep. No dice, though.

The only way you can fix problems in Mass Effect is with sex. No sex? Too bad! 

Look, all of us girls want a complex social links system where we can build friendships and progress each individual squadmates character development in a way that influences their performance in battle. But this ain't Sakura Taisen (this is a joke), and until we convince western male gamers to admit that they want this too, we're pretty well screwed as far as resources devoted to friendship simulation go.

Can I use the power of friendship to summon demons?

[CulturalGeekGirl]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

mrsph wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
That said, you can treat someone's PTSD and still have them come out the other side tough as nails. I was kinda hoping for a way to do that, as a friendly, non-romantic Femshep. No dice, though.

The only way you can fix problems in Mass Effect is with sex. No sex? Too bad! 

Look, all of us girls want a complex social links system where we can build friendships and progress each individual squadmates character development in a way that influences their performance in battle. But this ain't Sakura Taisen (this is a joke), and until we convince western male gamers to admit that they want this too, we're pretty well screwed as far as resources devoted to friendship simulation go.

Can I use the power of friendship to summon demons?

Heck yes you can. And you can play a game inside a game to make friends with a gamer.

Seriously though, Japanese emotional and frienship sims are often heavily linear and trope based. That's not to say that all the Bioware romances and characters are beautiful unique flowers, but they do have some interesting depth and variety. I think a lot of guys would be grateful for the ability to expand their bromance with Garrus, and I want to stay up late drinking with Kasumi. But unless/until the majority of people playing these games are using these features and liking them, they're not going to get a larger dev budget than they have now.

And we'll all have to use our goddam imaginations, instead. And that's bull****. I sold my imagination for a Playstation back in 1998.

[AVPen]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

mrsph wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
That said, you can treat someone's PTSD and still have them come out the other side tough as nails. I was kinda hoping for a way to do that, as a friendly, non-romantic Femshep. No dice, though.

The only way you can fix problems in Mass Effect is with sex. No sex? Too bad! 

Look, all of us girls want a complex social links system where we can build friendships and progress each individual squadmates character development in a way that influences their performance in battle. But this ain't Sakura Taisen (this is a joke), and until we convince western male gamers to admit that they want this too, we're pretty well screwed as far as resources devoted to friendship simulation go.

Can I use the power of friendship to summon demons?

Couldn't hurt. 

Joking aside, it'd be nice if the ME series could adopt a feature where you can interact with squad members of the opposite sex and not have to romance with them in order to progress that character's development  - one of the many reasons why I greatly prefered Persona 4 over its predecessor Persona 3 was the simple fact that I could interact with the female characters and choose whether or not to be a friend or a romantic interest with them (unlike P3 where you have to be a girl's boyfriend in order to progress her character development and improve her social link stats, basically meaning that you have to cheat on numerous girls and have a freaking harem just to progress farther in the gameplay  )

Modifié par AVPen, 24 avril 2011 - 12:19 .

[Dean_the_Young]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

AngelicMachinery wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

Jack's romance is pretty much what mrsph just said, however you can distill ALL the romances into a one line stereotype. Which is fine, the three choices offer someone different for everyone.

Some people like Tali, some like Jack, and other like Miranda. I wouldn't have it any other way, as competition breeds improvement, for ALL the LI.

Too bad,  I thought it was nice to have a hard as nails and destructive woman for her own sake instead of someone who needed to be fixed.

Here's the thing - I love that kind of character too, but Jack gives off signals of having actual mental illness along with her "I'm crazy in a fun way" antics. If she had been a Deadpool-style happy, unfixable madman, I would have been upset if they "fixed" her in any way. But the kid clearly has PTSD, and a bunch of other actual psychological problems, so I'm a bit more understanding about the "therapy romance." It certainly doesn't come out of nowhere.

That said, you can treat someone's PTSD and still have them come out the other side tough as nails. I was kinda hoping for a way to do that, as a friendly, non-romantic Femshep. No dice, though.

Frankly, the only female love interest in ME2 who doesn't have a 'only Shepard can make me a happy, emotionally healthy person' is... Kelly. Who really isn't even a love interest as recognized by the game.

Individually none of them would be too outrageous: Tali's a fangirl, Miranda's an ice queen, Jack's... Jack. But the way that they emphasize how 'only Shepard', who is pretty much a Marty Stu self-projection character for the fanbase, has the character to make those girls happy really mitigates it to Commander Shepard having the healing male-testicle to solve all a woman's problems.

Which, in a lot of ways, is just part of the larger problem of a series of rather sexist, borderline mysoginist romances in ME2.

[Seboist]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

AngelicMachinery wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

Jack's romance is pretty much what mrsph just said, however you can distill ALL the romances into a one line stereotype. Which is fine, the three choices offer someone different for everyone.

Some people like Tali, some like Jack, and other like Miranda. I wouldn't have it any other way, as competition breeds improvement, for ALL the LI.

Too bad,  I thought it was nice to have a hard as nails and destructive woman for her own sake instead of someone who needed to be fixed.

Here's the thing - I love that kind of character too, but Jack gives off signals of having actual mental illness along with her "I'm crazy in a fun way" antics. If she had been a Deadpool-style happy, unfixable madman, I would have been upset if they "fixed" her in any way. But the kid clearly has PTSD, and a bunch of other actual psychological problems, so I'm a bit more understanding about the "therapy romance." It certainly doesn't come out of nowhere.

That said, you can treat someone's PTSD and still have them come out the other side tough as nails. I was kinda hoping for a way to do that, as a friendly, non-romantic Femshep. No dice, though.

Frankly, the only female love interest in ME2 who doesn't have a 'only Shepard can make me a happy, emotionally healthy person' is... Kelly. Who really isn't even a love interest as recognized by the game.

Individually none of them would be too outrageous: Tali's a fangirl, Miranda's an ice queen, Jack's... Jack. But the way that they emphasize how 'only Shepard', who is pretty much a Marty Stu self-projection character for the fanbase, has the character to make those girls happy really mitigates it to Commander Shepard having the healing male-testicle to solve all a woman's problems.

Which, in a lot of ways, is just part of the larger problem of a series of rather sexist, borderline mysoginist romances in ME2.

Femshep has the magical vagina for Thane and Garrus too.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

While it's pretty explicitly stated for Thane, whether or not Garrus+Shepard = sexual healing is debatable. It's certainly a possibility, but the closest he has to acknowledging any real solid emotion is that one line, "I just wanted something to go right, just once." While that's dramatic, it's not exactly a "You saved me from myself!" kind of situation.

It's similar to the best/worst line I ever heard, which was this "I'm just glad to be dating a girl who isn't evil, for once." Yeah, great! That's some high standard you got there, bucko. So Garrus is just saying he's a huge screw up and hopefully he won't screw this one thing up. That's not saying "everything in my life will be perfect if you bone me."

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 24 avril 2011 - 12:38 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Seboist wrote...

Femshep has the magical vagina for Thane and Garrus too.

Actually, I don't quite agree. Perhaps it's because I just haven't seen those romances as many times as some of the others, but the Male LI's are far more independent of Shepard. Yes, they're just as happy with Shepard as any of the female LI's, but their happiness isn't dependent on it.

Thane, for example, considers you Siha regardless of whether you reciprocate. He's made his peace with his life, and death, and really the only 'problem' he has is if he falls in love with Shepard rather than keep it professional. Which is really a problem of Shepards own creation... and 'fixed' in the course of the romance as well. If you don't return the interest, there's nothing sad or miserable or disappointed about the last monthes of his life: he has his family, and his own identity.

Garrus's state isn't dependent on Shepard: he's recovering from Sidonis regardless of romance, and he wasn't fixated or crushing on Shepard beforehand either. Not romancing Garrus leaves him as a trusted friend who's overcoming his own problems and moving on with his life regardless.


And Jacob... well, the Prize is the most emotionally stable, functional human being on the ship.


The Male LI's are an example of 'independent' romance interests, even if they do all share a tendency to be ultimately submissive to Shepard. Maybe strong men submitting is attractive: certainly not what I've heard and seen IRL. But their happiness and mental well-being, immediate or long term, isn't dependent. None of them is Tali, who's been crusing on (either) Shepard since forever, or Miranda and unable to genuinely smile, or Jack and being... Jack.

In ME2, women are only at their happiest and healthiest if they're about to screw Shepard. [/hyperbole]

[PrinceLionheart]

mrsph wrote...

When you try to fix Jacob he breaks up with you.

Jacob is immune.

Yeah, and people got pissing over that and started moaning over how Jacob was the worst romance ever. 

I agree with Dean's assessment of the Female LI. Personally I couldn't stand any of the romances for MaleShep. Miranda and Tali were ego-stroking and Jack....well was poorly rushed.

Modifié par PrinceLionheart, 24 avril 2011 - 12:49 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

I also got into the Garrus relationship because he promised a casual hookup, and then things suddenly got real.

Which is... well... startlingly realistic, when you think about it.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 24 avril 2011 - 12:47 .

[Seboist]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Femshep has the magical vagina for Thane and Garrus too.

Actually, I don't quite agree. Perhaps it's because I just haven't seen those romances as many times as some of the others, but the Male LI's are far more independent of Shepard. Yes, they're just as happy with Shepard as any of the female LI's, but their happiness isn't dependent on it.

Thane, for example, considers you Siha regardless of whether you reciprocate. He's made his peace with his life, and death, and really the only 'problem' he has is if he falls in love with Shepard rather than keep it professional. Which is really a problem of Shepards own creation... and 'fixed' in the course of the romance as well. If you don't return the interest, there's nothing sad or miserable or disappointed about the last monthes of his life: he has his family, and his own identity.

Garrus's state isn't dependent on Shepard: he's recovering from Sidonis regardless of romance, and he wasn't fixated or crushing on Shepard beforehand either. Not romancing Garrus leaves him as a trusted friend who's overcoming his own problems and moving on with his life regardless.


And Jacob... well, the Prize is the most emotionally stable, functional human being on the ship.


The Male LI's are an example of 'independent' romance interests, even if they do all share a tendency to be ultimately submissive to Shepard. Maybe strong men submitting is attractive: certainly not what I've heard and seen IRL. But their happiness and mental well-being, immediate or long term, isn't dependent. None of them is Tali, who's been crusing on (either) Shepard since forever, or Miranda and unable to genuinely smile, or Jack and being... Jack.

In ME2, women are only at their happiest and healthiest if they're about to screw Shepard. [/hyperbole]

It seemed to me that the whole romance with Thane implied that femshep was giving him more reason to go on and that she was fulfilling the empty void left by his wife's death(maybe even fulfill the mother role for Kolyat?). This is probably the best ME2 romance for femshep come to think of it....

With Garrus, femshep provides him with something that finally "goes right".

Granted yes, there's more independance from femshep than the male romances but she provides them with the ideal relationships they're unable to get otherwise.