50 réponses à ce sujet

[Venatio]

I was considering making a Human Noble Rogue and making him King by marrying Anora (hoping that we can tweak the current epilogue ending of how badly that goes in Awakening) and what I wanted to do to accommodate that setup was spare Loghain. Despite his crimes its rather hard not to respect the guy, hell I can even understand his motivations. Alistair is his own man, if he chooses to desert the Grey Wardens and become a wandering drunkard then, well, I did my best but it is not really my fault.

I would have suggested a wandering poet, or even a jester.
 
But anyways there’s still the matter of Highever. Although Howe will lie dead by my blades there’s still the issue of Loghain; how responsible was he? Did he order the sacking of Highever for fear of the Couslands siding against him or was he unaware of Howe’s treachery until too late when he was forced to accept his ally’s machinations? If he is responsible I simply can’t allow him to live - if he is only connected by relation to Howe I can perhaps let him slide.

And no I don’t need people telling me off by comparing the sacking of Highever to the treachery at Ostagar and lambasting me about how if it were Howe I wouldn’t even consider such a decision... and how Alistair wouldn’t turn on me like that.

Anyways here the epilogue I referenced earlier which I hope to alter in Awakening:

 "Anora weds The Warden; establishing many trade contracts with surrounding countries, and together with The Warden begins what could be a new golden age for Ferelden if they do not end up fighting for control. "

The subject matter at hand: was Loghain responsible or early on aware of Highever's sacking?  

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

No. His alliance with Howe came well after, according to David Gaider. By then, it was really to late, and he needed Howe.



But to answer your question, Loghain was not involved. he was only involved with redcliffe and Eamon's poisoning/Jowan escape before Ostagar.So you can marry his daughter and keep him as your wet-blanket father-in-law with a clean conscience, that you aren't sparing a man who helped kill your family.

[Addai]

Well, consider that Loghain has the gonads to harp at a Cousland warden in front of the Landsmeet about Rendon Howe needing to be brought before a seneschal to answer for his crimes rather than be murdered. In lieu of a dialogue option where we ask when he was going to get around to bringing Howe to a seneschal for butchering the men, women and children of Highever Castle, an option to spit in Loghain's face right there would have been nice.

I really think something should have been said about Highever in the Landsmeet. Every noble in there should have been told to fear that on false accusations of treason, their wives, children and grandchildren could be slaughtered in the night and nothing would be done about it.

Modifié par Addai67, 18 février 2010 - 04:20 .

[Venatio]

Wow, thanks for the info - it was more than I expected on such short notice.

heh, wet-blanket, now thats a funny word. Just have to find the time to use it...

Addai67 wrote...

....I really think something should have been said about Highever in the Landsmeet. Every noble in there should have been told to fear that on false accusations of treason, their wives, children and grandchildren could be slaughtered in the night and nothing would be done about it.

You're right, considering the Cousland family rivaled the King in power, the sacking of Highever got very little coverage.

Modifié par Venatio, 18 février 2010 - 03:58 .

[Venatio]

Double post  

Modifié par Venatio, 18 février 2010 - 04:01 .

[Monica21]

Venatio wrote...

Wow, thanks for the info - it was more than I expected on such short notice.

heh, wet-blanket, now thats a funny word. Just have to find the time to use it...

Addai67 wrote...

....I really think something should have been said about Highever in the Landsmeet. Every noble in there should have been told to fear that on false accusations of treason, their wives, children and grandchildren could be slaughtered in the night and nothing would be done about it.

You're right, considering the Cousland family rivaled the King in power, the sacking of Highever got very little coverage.

Yeah, but it wouldn't have made sense for the other origins, not to mention that Howe's already dead and you're there to name a ruler. What really could be said anyway? "Howe killed my family and now he's dead." "Can we put that on the After The Blight agenda? Thanks."

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Addai67 wrote...

Well, consider that Loghain has the gonads to harp at a Cousland warden in front of the Landsmeet about Rendon Howe needing to be brought before a seneschal to answer for his crimes rather than be murdered. In lieu of a dialogue option where we ask when he was going to get around to bringing Howe to a seneschal for butchering the men, women and children of Highever Castle, an option to spit in Loghain's face right there would have been nice.

Or an option to headbutt him. Been hanging around Oghren too much.

I really think something should have been said about Highever in the Landsmeet. Every noble in there should have been told to fear that on false accusations of treason, their wives, children and grandchildren could be slaughtered in the night and nothing would be done about it.

While it would have been nice, Highever was the sole work of a lunatic rogue noble who did so illegally well before the king died. Once cailan was dead, Howe simply brought his half baked charges up to cover up his crimes for the sake of formality. By then, the country was at civil war, and people had more pressing matters.

The murder of the Couslands had no direct bearing on the purpose of the Landsmeet: get rid of Loghain, one way or another, and get people to unite and fight the Blight. Loghain had nothing to do with Highever, and Howe was already worm food by Landsmeet. It added nothing to your case in nailing Loghain with stuff that could be directly nailed on him: Eamon, Jowan, Elven Slavery,

[Addai]

But the murder of the Cousland household does bear on Loghain.  He kept Howe as his right-hand man and obviously he not only had no intention of bringing him to justice, he was going to reward him.

For me, when Loghain announces Howe as Teyrn of Highever to your face at Eamon's estate, his fate is pretty much sealed in my HN games.  If you want to both spare him and have him at your family Saturnalia dinners, that's up to you, OP. 

Modifié par Addai67, 18 février 2010 - 04:28 .

[Addai]

Monica21 wrote...

Yeah, but it wouldn't have made sense for the other origins, not to mention that Howe's already dead and you're there to name a ruler. What really could be said anyway? "Howe killed my family and now he's dead." "Can we put that on the After The Blight agenda? Thanks."

Howe's other crimes already are a Landsmeet issue, and as I said above, it really goes to Loghain.

[Monica21]

Addai67 wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Yeah, but it wouldn't have made sense for the other origins, not to mention that Howe's already dead and you're there to name a ruler. What really could be said anyway? "Howe killed my family and now he's dead." "Can we put that on the After The Blight agenda? Thanks."

Howe's other crimes already are a Landsmeet issue, and as I said above, it really goes to Loghain.

Your job at the Landsmeet is to name a ruler and end a civil war, not to get justice for your family. You have very specific evidence of Loghain's crimes, of which the events at Highever is not one. There's enough evidence to condemn him to death without bringing up what is, at best, a murky relationship.

[Addai]

There is as much evidence of what happened at Highever as anything else. Namely, your testimony, and in establishing the murder of the Couslands, the fact that Howe has claimed the Teyrnir of Highever in the name of an absent Bryce Cousland is a wee bit suspicious, no? Like I said, it all goes to who should be the ruler. It is no small event when the country's only other teyrn and his family are murdered and the regent not only is not doing anything about it, he's profiting from it.

Another thought for the OP: You don't really believe Anora's soppy words about your family, do you? The little fly in that ointment is that right before she was captured by Howe, she was going to Howe for advice. Oh yes, she was really broken up about her BFF Eleanor.

Modifié par Addai67, 18 février 2010 - 05:15 .

[AuraofMana]

I don't care what Loghain's motives were. He may have believed he was doing the right thing, and that's fine. Everyone is entitled to his or her opinions. However, since he killed my family and screwed things up so far, why would I want him around? I can do a better job without him around, and I want anyone to mess with me to suffer. He's going to be exposed and executed like the traitorous dog he is. People will remember him as a traitor, not a hero. And if Anora doesn't like it, then she can die too.

[Monica21]

AuraofMana wrote...

I don't care what Loghain's motives were. He may have believed he was doing the right thing, and that's fine. Everyone is entitled to his or her opinions. However, since he killed my family and screwed things up so far, why would I want him around? I can do a better job without him around, and I want anyone to mess with me to suffer. He's going to be exposed and executed like the traitorous dog he is. People will remember him as a traitor, not a hero. And if Anora doesn't like it, then she can die too.

Loghain didn't have anything to do with killing the Couslands.

[ervanol]

Monica21 wrote...

AuraofMana wrote...

I don't care what Loghain's motives were. He may have believed he was doing the right thing, and that's fine. Everyone is entitled to his or her opinions. However, since he killed my family and screwed things up so far, why would I want him around? I can do a better job without him around, and I want anyone to mess with me to suffer. He's going to be exposed and executed like the traitorous dog he is. People will remember him as a traitor, not a hero. And if Anora doesn't like it, then she can die too.

Loghain didn't have anything to do with killing the Couslands.

Not true. Howe committed the crime(s) but he is backed up by Loghain in a way that incriminates him totally. Could there be any justification for Howes acts?

Let's say Howe finds out that Cousland, a good friend of his, is a traitor. Cousland wants to kill Howe so the information dies with him. Howe can act out of self defense. But do these circumstances also have to lead to the killing of Couslands wife, his daughter in law and his grandson?

Howe knew he had a free hand in committing his acts or was certain Loghain would justify his acts. This tells us were Loghain stands.

[melkathi]

ervanol wrote...

Not true. Howe committed the crime(s) but he is backed up by Loghain in a way that incriminates him totally. Could there be any justification for Howes acts?

Let's say Howe finds out that Cousland, a good friend of his, is a traitor. Cousland wants to kill Howe so the information dies with him. Howe can act out of self defense. But do these circumstances also have to lead to the killing of Couslands wife, his daughter in law and his grandson?

Howe knew he had a free hand in committing his acts or was certain Loghain would justify his acts. This tells us were Loghain stands.

I agree.
If it had only been the Teyrn Cousland and his msot trusted soldiers killed, I could have been convinced that Loghain was innocent. But they butchered everyone.
And the fact that he made Howe teyrn on the spot - no waiting till after the civil war. Loghain is a calculating bastard, he should have been able to promise Howe the title without actually giving it to him just yet. Thus it could have been brought up before the Landsmeet after the darkspawn were defeated and at least some sort of enquiry could have been made.

Truth is, Loghain didn't care. And for someone who justified all his actions, his entire life, through what happened to his own family...

[mousestalker]

The main reason I think the HN doesn't mention what Howe did at Highever is that it's self-serving. Doing so turns the "let's replace Loghain, he's either batty or dangerous" into "I want revenge". I think most of the nobles there would understand that you really don't appreciate what Howe did and that Loghain promoted Howe either despite or because of what happened at Highever.



That news has already done its work. What's needed is additional ammunition. Which is what you supply when you mention Howe's other misdeeds and Arl Eamon's poisoning. Selling elves is bad, but those two have witnesses in the Landsmeet (Alfstanna, the head priestess and Bann Sighard). Those deeds are also against nobles. If Loghain can have the nobility poisoned, abducted and tortured, what noble is safe? More to the point, the Loghain everyone knows is the Loghain that meets you face to face and stabs you in the gut. This sneaky and two-faced Loghain is someone they don't know.

[melkathi]

Very true, mousestalker.

After all, Alfstanna for example already promisses you troops to retake Highever if need be.

Personally I think the poisoning of Arl Eamon is the best ammuntion. It's a three in one: an arl poisoned, a bann's brother locked up in Howe dungeon, a templar locked up in Howe's dungeon (even though its the same person, its a sepparate crime) and aiding a malificar escape Chantry justice. That's enough for a death sentence right there.



But it would have been nice if my noble could have whispered a personal little comment into his ear

[Bratt1204]

Addai67 wrote...

Well, consider that Loghain has the gonads to harp at a Cousland warden in front of the Landsmeet about Rendon Howe needing to be brought before a seneschal to answer for his crimes rather than be murdered. In lieu of a dialogue option where we ask when he was going to get around to bringing Howe to a seneschal for butchering the men, women and children of Highever Castle, an option to spit in Loghain's face right there would have been nice.

I really think something should have been said about Highever in the Landsmeet. Every noble in there should have been told to fear that on false accusations of treason, their wives, children and grandchildren could be slaughtered in the night and nothing would be done about it.

I agree.

[Bratt1204]

Monica21 wrote...

AuraofMana wrote...

I don't care what Loghain's motives were. He may have believed he was doing the right thing, and that's fine. Everyone is entitled to his or her opinions. However, since he killed my family and screwed things up so far, why would I want him around? I can do a better job without him around, and I want anyone to mess with me to suffer. He's going to be exposed and executed like the traitorous dog he is. People will remember him as a traitor, not a hero. And if Anora doesn't like it, then she can die too.

Loghain didn't have anything to do with killing the Couslands.

I'm not so certain about that.

[maxernst]

I don't care what David Gaider says, my Aedan will go to his grave believing that Loghain was responsible. The timing is just too suspicious. We know that he was already working on removing potential opposition to his coup before Ostagar (Eammon poisoning), so why shouldn't he attack another powerful family with claims on the throne and historic ties to the Grey Wardens? He not only backs up Howe's story, he rewards him for his treachery and makes him his right hand man. I have no proof, but the circumstantial evidence is compelling enough for me.

[Addai]

maxernst wrote...

I don't care what David Gaider says, my Aedan will go to his grave believing that Loghain was responsible. The timing is just too suspicious. We know that he was already working on removing potential opposition to his coup before Ostagar (Eammon poisoning), so why shouldn't he attack another powerful family with claims on the throne and historic ties to the Grey Wardens? He not only backs up Howe's story, he rewards him for his treachery and makes him his right hand man. I have no proof, but the circumstantial evidence is compelling enough for me.

Exactly.  If the game gods tell us it is so, it must be so, but barring strong evidence to the contrary, your character has to assume that it was all part of Loghain's plan.  To do otherwise is to entirely strain credulity.  At the very least Loghain approves of what Howe did after the fact and must have been prepared to telegraph his false accusations towards your family in order to cover up the murders, unless Loghain planned to throw Howe under the bus once he had secured the rest of the nobility.

I'm sure someone could find an RP reason why a Cousland warden would excuse Loghain for not only selling elves and all the rest, but also for his complicity in your family's downfall (after the fact if not in concert with Howe or directing him), but the only way I can think to do that is that such a Cousland is a ruthless and power-hungry mofo himself and admires such handiwork.  And maybe has a secret hatred of his parents or something.

[Addai]

mousestalker wrote...

The main reason I think the HN doesn't mention what Howe did at Highever is that it's self-serving. Doing so turns the "let's replace Loghain, he's either batty or dangerous" into "I want revenge". I think most of the nobles there would understand that you really don't appreciate what Howe did and that Loghain promoted Howe either despite or because of what happened at Highever.

But I didn't say that it would be your character who would bring it up as a charge.  That would certainly be within rights, of course.  I just mean the fact that it is not mentioned by anyone at all, even as an aside, is a curious ommission.  If you're going to appeal to the nobles, appeal to their lily-livered instincts.  The fact that Loghain is willing to either order or excuse an entire noble family- another teyrn, no less- being liquidated should make some of those spineless bastards quail, if not get angry enough to do anything about it.

[Monica21]

I'm all for "hey, let's get revenge" but I don't think it's justified in Loghain's case, at least not when it comes to the events at Highever. Just because Howe acted alone doesn't mean that Loghain approved of his actions. He had very few people willing to support him when he arrived in Denerim, and Teagan speaking against him hurt him that much more.

To give proper credit to Howe, we're still talking about a rather barbaric society and he did conquer Highever, even if he cheated to do so. Howe didn't need to be named a Teryn, he won it by virtue of killing your father. It wouldn't have been allowed during a time of peace, but the rest of the country is a bit busy taking care of other matters.

I still maintain that Loghain needed all the friends he could get and Howe is a sycophant who latched on.

[melkathi]

Addai67 wrote...

maxernst wrote...

I don't care what David Gaider says, my Aedan will go to his grave believing that Loghain was responsible. The timing is just too suspicious. We know that he was already working on removing potential opposition to his coup before Ostagar (Eammon poisoning), so why shouldn't he attack another powerful family with claims on the throne and historic ties to the Grey Wardens? He not only backs up Howe's story, he rewards him for his treachery and makes him his right hand man. I have no proof, but the circumstantial evidence is compelling enough for me.

Exactly.  If the game gods tell us it is so, it must be so, but barring strong evidence to the contrary, your character has to assume that it was all part of Loghain's plan.  To do otherwise is to entirely strain credulity.  At the very least Loghain approves of what Howe did after the fact and must have been prepared to telegraph his false accusations towards your family in order to cover up the murders, unless Loghain planned to throw Howe under the bus once he had secured the rest of the nobility.

I'm sure someone could find an RP reason why a Cousland warden would excuse Loghain for not only selling elves and all the rest, but also for his complicity in your family's downfall (after the fact if not in concert with Howe or directing him), but the only way I can think to do that is that such a Cousland is a ruthless and power-hungry mofo himself and admires such handiwork.  And maybe has a secret hatred of his parents or something.

I just restarted my FHN. Once she talks to Loghain at Ostagar, I'll take a screenshot of the one line of dialogue that was the first nail in his coffin

[Addai]

Monica21, I think you're still missing that the Cousland murders are not just a matter of personal revenge on the part of your character, but a national event. If such things as the poisoning of Arl Eamon and the torture of Bann Sighard's son by Howe are worthy of the Landsmeet's consideration, then the unlawful takeover of Highever certainly is as well. The fact that it is a barbaric society is also beside the point. Loghain doesn't have any shame in calling you barbaric for killing Howe.

It's not really a question that Loghain is willing to do whatever he needs to do to gain and hang onto power.  It's obvious that he is.  The question is how much your character and the rest of the nobles are willing to let him get away with. The OP wants to know how a Cousland could justify letting Loghain off the hook. His concern seems to be only with whether Loghain planned it or knew about it early on. My point is that even if he didn't, your Cousland is not worth his name if he can excuse Loghain profiting from it afterwards.

Modifié par Addai67, 18 février 2010 - 04:16 .