50 réponses à ce sujet

[Monica21]

Addai67 wrote...

Monica21, I think you're still missing that the Cousland murders are not just a matter of personal revenge on the part of your character, but a national event. If such things as the poisoning of Arl Eamon and the torture of Bann Sighard's son by Howe are worthy of the Landsmeet's consideration, then the unlawful takeover of Highever certainly is as well. The fact that it is a barbaric society is also beside the point. Loghain doesn't have any shame in calling you barbaric for killing Howe.

I'm not missing that it's a national event, what I'm saying is that by the time you get to the Landsmeet you have new information to be used against Loghain and that information involves him directly, not just by association. You need direct evidence to remove him from power.

It's not really a question that Loghain is willing to do whatever he needs to do to gain and hang onto power.  It's obvious that he is.  The question is how much your character and the rest of the nobles are willing to let him get away with. The OP wants to know how a Cousland could justify letting Loghain off the hook. His concern seems to be only with whether Loghain planned it or knew about it early on. My point is that even if he didn't, your Cousland is not worth his name if he can excuse Loghain profiting from it afterwards.

I agree that it is a question of what you can let him get away with, but Loghain's only crime concerning Highever was letting Howe get away with it. But then again, he couldn't really afford to lose the support of a noble by refusing his services.

I don't know, I guess it just boils down to how you view Loghain. I don't think he would lower himself to associating with Howe under normal circumstances. I see him as terribly misguided and paranoid, but that's about it.

[mousestalker]

Addai67 wrote...

Monica21, I think you're still missing that the Cousland murders are not just a matter of personal revenge on the part of your character, but a national event. If such things as the poisoning of Arl Eamon and the torture of Bann Sighard's son by Howe are worthy of the Landsmeet's consideration, then the unlawful takeover of Highever certainly is as well. The fact that it is a barbaric society is also beside the point. Loghain doesn't have any shame in calling you barbaric for killing Howe.

It's not really a question that Loghain is willing to do whatever he needs to do to gain and hang onto power.  It's obvious that he is.  The question is how much your character and the rest of the nobles are willing to let him get away with. The OP wants to know how a Cousland could justify letting Loghain off the hook. His concern seems to be only with whether Loghain planned it or knew about it early on. My point is that even if he didn't, your Cousland is not worth his name if he can excuse Loghain profiting from it afterwards.

In my HN playthroughs, Loghain always dies. In fact, only my dwarves allow him to go through the Joining. There are two separate issues here. The complicity of Loghain in the massacre at Highever and obtaining the best political advantage at the Landsmeet to get him deposed. If you want vengeance or justice, then it may be worthwhile not bringing up your own personal grievances. That's what Alistair doesn't understand when he has his hissy fit if you let Loghain live.

It's also why my elves never bring up his slavery operation. The human nobles are upset by it, but Loghain's dealings with their own kind are what get them fired up.

[Addai]

melkathi wrote...

I just restarted my FHN. Once she talks to Loghain at Ostagar, I'll take a screenshot of the one line of dialogue that was the first nail in his coffin

Oh?  Do tell.  I don't recall anything particularly.  He will tell a female Warden not to let anyone push her around, which is actually a nice line.  Just as an aside, I was startled that he told my city elf that she was pretty.  Of course, she being fresh from the hospitality of Vaughn Urien, that line from another human lord went over like a lead balloon with her.

Modifié par Addai67, 18 février 2010 - 04:41 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

mousestalker wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Monica21, I think you're still missing that the Cousland murders are not just a matter of personal revenge on the part of your character, but a national event. If such things as the poisoning of Arl Eamon and the torture of Bann Sighard's son by Howe are worthy of the Landsmeet's consideration, then the unlawful takeover of Highever certainly is as well. The fact that it is a barbaric society is also beside the point. Loghain doesn't have any shame in calling you barbaric for killing Howe.

It's not really a question that Loghain is willing to do whatever he needs to do to gain and hang onto power.  It's obvious that he is.  The question is how much your character and the rest of the nobles are willing to let him get away with. The OP wants to know how a Cousland could justify letting Loghain off the hook. His concern seems to be only with whether Loghain planned it or knew about it early on. My point is that even if he didn't, your Cousland is not worth his name if he can excuse Loghain profiting from it afterwards.

In my HN playthroughs, Loghain always dies. In fact, only my dwarves allow him to go through the Joining. There are two separate issues here. The complicity of Loghain in the massacre at Highever and obtaining the best political advantage at the Landsmeet to get him deposed. If you want vengeance or justice, then it may be worthwhile not bringing up your own personal grievances. That's what Alistair doesn't understand when he has his hissy fit if you let Loghain live.

It's also why my elves never bring up his slavery operation. The human nobles are upset by it, but Loghain's dealings with their own kind are what get them fired up.

My human noble would have killed Loghain had she not given the honor to Alistair. In her mind, even though he had nothing to do with her family's murder, he was Howe's ally, which for her, is an automatic death sentance for just about anyone unless they are prepared for a large amount of scraping and groveling, bowing and submission. My mage wanted Loghain to die because like Alistair, she sort of hero worshipped Duncan and felt that crime and the betrayal of the wardens unforgivable. My dwarf noble didn't care, and spared him because she was cunning and ruthless and saw him as a potentially useful tool.

A noble could spare Loghain, justifiably. If one is willing to look past his alliance with Howe as an understanable political necessity, he is still looked upon as a hero and savior of the Therin line, and given your family's history, your grandfather and father probably fought along side him. I've never played it that way, but it certainly is a reasonable possibility.

[maxernst]

Monica21 wrote...


I still maintain that Loghain needed all the friends he could get and Howe is a sycophant who latched on.

I can't buy this argument.  Loghain is the most famous hero in Ferelden.  Even after all the dirt you dig up on him, even after southern Ferelden is laid waste by the blight, he still has supporters.  I can't believe that when he first gets to Denerim that he can't find better supporters among the nobility than Howe.  Howe is not well liked or well respected, so he just isn't that useful asa political ally. 

[maxernst]

What's the evidence that he's powerful, prior to becoming Loghain's henchman?

[Monica21]

maxernst wrote...
I can't buy this argument.  Loghain is the most famous hero in Ferelden.  Even after all the dirt you dig up on him, even after southern Ferelden is laid waste by the blight, he still has supporters.  I can't believe that when he first gets to Denerim that he can't find better supporters among the nobility than Howe.  Howe is not well liked or well respected, so he just isn't that useful asa political ally. 

Loghain has almost no support, and Teagan speaking against him in Denerim is likely what started the revolt. Banns were fighting him and burning their own crops to prevent Loghain's men from taking them. Yes, he has supporters, but he clearly doesn't have enough or there wouldn't be civil war.

And no, it doesn't matter if Howe is well-liked. He is however, a teryn and the Arl of Denerim which puts his forces in Loghain's command. (At least the one's who didn't desert.) Loghain doesn't need someone he likes, he needs troops.

[Monica21]

maxernst wrote...

What's the evidence that he's powerful, prior to becoming Loghain's henchman?

Troops. He's sworn to support Loghain, so his troops are Loghain's. That's all he wants and what he thinks he needs.

[ejoslin]

Howe isn't a Teyrn until Loghain makes him one. He is an arl, though.

[maxernst]

He's only Arl of Denerim after Loghain makes him Arl of Denerim. Highever's troops are gone (what wasn't with the king was killed at Highever), so really all he has is the troops from Amaranthine. Loghain still has some support, even when you arrive--I'm sure he had far more when he first got to Denerim.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

maxernst wrote...

What's the evidence that he's powerful, prior to becoming Loghain's henchman?

he's an Arl, for a start, and Arls are more powerful than mere Banns, though not as much as a Teyrn.

Howe's popularity, or lack of it, had nothing to do with his usefulness as an ally. Howe is very much a behind the scenes/cloak and dagger man. What Howe had was ruthlessness, cunning, and political savy, which Loghain lacked, hence why Howe wasn't Loghain PR man, but his closest advisor. That's why Loghain needed him: Howe could help him maneuver the tricky political minefield, a battle that alone, Loghain is poorly equipped to deal with. Which was a stupid choice. His daughter would have made a far better advisor. She was both cunning and charasmatic, and knew how to drawn flies in with honey as opposed to vinegar.

but perhaps that's why loghain saw Howe as the best bet: He knew Howe had little moral or ethical problems getting in the way of his choices, and would offer choices and solutions that would make even Anora cringe.

[Monica21]

ejoslin wrote...

Howe isn't a Teyrn until Loghain makes him one. He is an arl, though.

Did Loghain name him Teryn or did Howe assume the title?

[Addai]

Monica21 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Howe isn't a Teyrn until Loghain makes him one. He is an arl, though.

Did Loghain name him Teryn or did Howe assume the title?

Both, I think.  And Loghain confirms the "appointment" to your face, despite you being a surviving Cousland.

I have no quibble with the idea that Loghain accepted Howe as a ruthless ally because he was seeking just such people.  Is this supposed to be an excuse for him, though?  Maybe Cauthrien can accept it as one, but anyone else who is not either a blind worshipper of Loghain or a similar scumbag to Howe?

Modifié par Addai67, 18 février 2010 - 05:58 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Addai67 wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Howe isn't a Teyrn until Loghain makes him one. He is an arl, though.

Did Loghain name him Teryn or did Howe assume the title?

Both, I think.  And Loghain confirms the "appointment" to your face, despite you being a surviving Cousland.

I have no quibble with the idea that Loghain accepted Howe as a ruthless ally because he was seeking just such people.  Is this supposed to be an excuse for him, though?

Not for me, it wasn't. I am one of those people who can understand him and why he did what he did, how he was thinking, and the reasons behind it.

It still hasn't raised his odds of living past Landsmeet any, which in all my non DN playthroughs, have been zero. Whatever his reasons, the results of his actions and the mindset driving them ensured his heads untimely seperation from his neck.

Though i wished for that scene, you had the option to have Anora removed from the room when you did it. bastard or not, he was still her daddy dearest, and especially given that my HNF watched her father die in front of her, i feel really bad that Anora stood right there and got splattered with Loghain bits. Even Anora doesn't deserve that.

[Qilue]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Howe isn't a Teyrn until Loghain makes him one. He is an arl, though.

Did Loghain name him Teryn or did Howe assume the title?

Both, I think.  And Loghain confirms the "appointment" to your face, despite you being a surviving Cousland.

I have no quibble with the idea that Loghain accepted Howe as a ruthless ally because he was seeking just such people.  Is this supposed to be an excuse for him, though?

Not for me, it wasn't. I am one of those people who can understand him and why he did what he did, how he was thinking, and the reasons behind it.

It still hasn't raised his odds of living past Landsmeet any, which in all my non DN playthroughs, have been zero. Whatever his reasons, the results of his actions and the mindset driving them ensured his heads untimely seperation from his neck.

Though i wished for that scene, you had the option to have Anora removed from the room when you did it. bastard or not, he was still her daddy dearest, and especially given that my HNF watched her father die in front of her, i feel really bad that Anora stood right there and got splattered with Loghain bits. Even Anora doesn't deserve that.

I believe little miss schemer needed to see how things really worked after colluding with the warden to remove her father from power. As to her bid for the throne, there's no way any noble would swear an oath of allegiance to some upstart peasant who's father was executed as a traitor.

[sylvanaerie]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Howe isn't a Teyrn until Loghain makes him one. He is an arl, though.

Did Loghain name him Teryn or did Howe assume the title?

Both, I think.  And Loghain confirms the "appointment" to your face, despite you being a surviving Cousland.

I have no quibble with the idea that Loghain accepted Howe as a ruthless ally because he was seeking just such people.  Is this supposed to be an excuse for him, though?

Not for me, it wasn't. I am one of those people who can understand him and why he did what he did, how he was thinking, and the reasons behind it.

It still hasn't raised his odds of living past Landsmeet any, which in all my non DN playthroughs, have been zero. Whatever his reasons, the results of his actions and the mindset driving them ensured his heads untimely seperation from his neck.

Though i wished for that scene, you had the option to have Anora removed from the room when you did it. bastard or not, he was still her daddy dearest, and especially given that my HNF watched her father die in front of her, i feel really bad that Anora stood right there and got splattered with Loghain bits. Even Anora doesn't deserve that.

I agree, whatever my feelings about Loghain or Anora she didn't deserve to see that.  No child should have to see that.  Thing is his blood is still pooling on the floor and shes grabbing for the throne.  Makes me wonder just how much love was between them at that point.

[melkathi]

Addai67 wrote...

melkathi wrote...

I just restarted my FHN. Once she talks to Loghain at Ostagar, I'll take a screenshot of the one line of dialogue that was the first nail in his coffin

Oh?  Do tell.  I don't recall anything particularly.  He will tell a female Warden not to let anyone push her around, which is actually a nice line.  Just as an aside, I was startled that he told my city elf that she was pretty.  Of course, she being fresh from the hospitality of Vaughn Urien, that line from another human lord went over like a lead balloon with her.

It's quite a personal thing and I don't doubt others will not see it my way. But it's this line:




My character did narrow her eyes a bit at that. And it made her wonder. And after Loghain's treason, she added two and two together.
Why would Loghain comment on Cailan's intentions unless he knew Cailan would not act on them? And if he shared Cailan's view on what had to be done about Howe's treachery, would he not have said something similar to what the king had said?
No, my noble remebers that line. No platitudes, no words of condolences and definitly no talk about justice. Loghain did not even feel the need to pretend. A bit more and he would have flat out told me he planned to let Cailan die.

[Bratt1204]

sylvanaerie wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Howe isn't a Teyrn until Loghain makes him one. He is an arl, though.

Did Loghain name him Teryn or did Howe assume the title?

Both, I think.  And Loghain confirms the "appointment" to your face, despite you being a surviving Cousland.

I have no quibble with the idea that Loghain accepted Howe as a ruthless ally because he was seeking just such people.  Is this supposed to be an excuse for him, though?

Not for me, it wasn't. I am one of those people who can understand him and why he did what he did, how he was thinking, and the reasons behind it.

It still hasn't raised his odds of living past Landsmeet any, which in all my non DN playthroughs, have been zero. Whatever his reasons, the results of his actions and the mindset driving them ensured his heads untimely seperation from his neck.

Though i wished for that scene, you had the option to have Anora removed from the room when you did it. bastard or not, he was still her daddy dearest, and especially given that my HNF watched her father die in front of her, i feel really bad that Anora stood right there and got splattered with Loghain bits. Even Anora doesn't deserve that.

I agree, whatever my feelings about Loghain or Anora she didn't deserve to see that.  No child should have to see that.  Thing is his blood is still pooling on the floor and shes grabbing for the throne.  Makes me wonder just how much love was between them at that point.

Oh, I disagree. Anora claims she would make a stronger leader of Ferelden than Alistair? She absolutely should have been forced to watch the execution of her treasonous father. I only wish we were given the option to execute Anora as well, I would have. She cannot be Queen of Ferelden, being only a widowed Princess-Consort. She is not Queen-Regent, and is only the daughter of a peasant farmer without any Noble blood what-so-ever. Carrying out corporal punishment is part of what a good ruler is expected to do. She had no difficulty with ordering Alistair's execution if you named her Queen (how is that even possible), Alistair is a Theirin and has blood right to be King. It is too unrealistic to have Anora named Queen to rule alone, it would never have been allowed - she would have been forced to marry a Noble male or she would have been assassinated in order for a proper Noble to then acquire the throne of Ferelden.  

[SurelyForth]

I agree, whatever my feelings about Loghain or Anora she didn't deserve to see that. No child should have to see that. Thing is his blood is still pooling on the floor and shes grabbing for the throne. Makes me wonder just how much love was between them at that point.

One thing that I know I harp on, but it's something that bugs the crap out of me, is that she will refuse to marry Alistair if he kills Loghain, but thinks nothing of marrying him otherwise. Even though he's, you know, the one demanding Loghain's death- especially if the PC accepts his yield. Alistair might not wield the sword that lops off Loghain's head, but he needs Loghain dead and is the most vocal in this regard. Why is that not as much of a dealbreaker?

Modifié par SurelyForth, 18 février 2010 - 08:47 .

[Addai]

melkathi wrote...
My character did narrow her eyes a bit at that. And it made her wonder. And after Loghain's treason, she added two and two together.
Why would Loghain comment on Cailan's intentions unless he knew Cailan would not act on them? And if he shared Cailan's view on what had to be done about Howe's treachery, would he not have said something similar to what the king had said?
No, my noble remebers that line. No platitudes, no words of condolences and definitly no talk about justice. Loghain did not even feel the need to pretend. A bit more and he would have flat out told me he planned to let Cailan die.

Ah yes, now I remember, and I noted the careful wording as well.  I'm not sure my character noticed, though.  She was a bit starstruck by Loghain.  In fact even later on, she wavered at first about sparing him at the Landsmeet ("I accept your surrender").  Her thought was at least not to expose him to the humiliation of a public execution, owing to what he had been.  Alistair brought her to her senses, however, and she would also never have gone against her king's first public policy pronouncement in any case.

[melkathi]

Addai67 wrote...

Ah yes, now I remember, and I noted the careful wording as well.  I'm not sure my character noticed, though.  She was a bit starstruck by Loghain.  In fact even later on, she wavered at first about sparing him at the Landsmeet ("I accept your surrender").  Her thought was at least not to expose him to the humiliation of a public execution, owing to what he had been.  Alistair brought her to her senses, however, and she would also never have gone against her king's first public policy pronouncement in any case.

My character was expecting symapthy and was offended when it wasn't offered. She didn't care about all this darkspawn and upcomming battle malarky. Howe had butchered Highever and to her everyone should care. And then the hero of River Dane, the "other" Teyrn, didn't even bother to say a simple "I am sorry for your loss"
Oh she noticed

[KnightofPhoenix]

melkathi wrote...

My character did narrow her eyes a bit at that. And it made her wonder. And after Loghain's treason, she added two and two together.
Why would Loghain comment on Cailan's intentions unless he knew Cailan would not act on them? And if he shared Cailan's view on what had to be done about Howe's treachery, would he not have said something similar to what the king had said?
No, my noble remebers that line. No platitudes, no words of condolences and definitly no talk about justice. Loghain did not even feel the need to pretend. A bit more and he would have flat out told me he planned to let Cailan die.

That's Loghain's character. He doesn't show his sympathies. He doesn't show much courtesy to anyone. He doesn't even beg for mercy, or forgiveness and in many ways, he doesn't care. So naturally, he isn't going to give you condolescences, or talk about justice, while he is clearly tired because of his planing and because of Cailan's stupidity. I wouldn't hold that against him, it's his character.

But I didn't interpret this line this way at all. Nor did he plan to kill Cailan, he more than once asked the idiot to stay away from the frontlines.

Of course, interpretation of character is always subjective and your interpretation is no less valid than mine. But it doesn't prove that Loghain had anything to do with Howe's treachery. Mr Gaider already said Loghain had nothign to do with it.

[Venatio]

Does it matter at all, and I'm just asking this out of curiosity, that it was Riordan who suggested that Loghain be spared and put through the Joining? Or is he so out of touch with the gravity of the situation that he would be equitable to that guy people stare at for saying something stupid. Brings to mind a quote from the guy:

"We aren't judges. Kinslayers, blood mages, traitors, rebels, carta thugs, common bandits; Anyone with the skill and mettle to take up the sword against the darkspawn is welcome among us."

Is it the Grey Warden thing to do to spare Loghain? I know Sten Agrees.

- Sten: I didn't think it was a human practice, making a comrade of a defeated foe.
- Loghain: It isn't. These are... unusual circumstances.
- Sten: It is... encouraging to see.
- Loghain: Encouraging? How so?
- Sten: Perhaps your people are becoming more like qunari. You could do worse.
- Loghain: Do you mean to say that qunari do make comrades of their beaten opponent?
- Sten: Qunari do not waste resources. And few are more valuable than lives.
- Loghain: How exactly do you go about making your enemies work for you?
- Sten: We're a persuasive people, if you couldn't tell.

But, well, he's a Qunari. Anyways, that was my two cents.

Modifié par Venatio, 18 février 2010 - 10:41 .

[Veritasinpersonam]

The Couslands were devoted royalists and Loghain had already begun taking action against other royal supporters (Eamon). Even if he was not involved with the murder of the Couslands, he eagerly ratified the outcome by supporting Howe, even making him the Arl of Denerim. In effect someone murders your family and then gets a pat on the back, and a promotion. Speaking for myself, I would find such an action unforgiveable.