113 réponses à ce sujet

[Unato]

I found the renegade options to be tamer in ME2, using tali as example because I've romanced her 3 times, straight after you recruit her and talk to her the para option is "yes I expect Cerberus to turn on me" while the renegade option is "I don't agree with Cerberus but they are right this time" both of them are logical and the renegade isn't you yelling / treating your crew member like trash



likewise on her loyalty at the console before finding her father if you go para you're arguing taking her homeworld is prob a bad idea and she should give up while the renegade option is agreeing with her about retaking the homeworld but then she reveals that even if they take it back it will take years to readept.



to me largely the renegade options in ME2 are ok and sometimes it even reveals new information that you would otherwise not know



really the cringe worthy moment I found playing a renegade are on thane's loyalty quest with mouse ( he's just a kid who grew up wrong no need to push him around really >< ), choosing Morinth ( I found her overall character creepy as hell), and the final decision to keep the base ( talk to your team members and it feels like you're just released Hitler from prison )

[SidNitzerglobin]

I dunno, I really can't think any significant difference in outcomes in the paragon/renegade choices so far that makes the paragon choices "better".

The options exist to allow some semblance of role playing/controlling what type of character your Shepard is.

While I guess I can appreciate having my hardcore renegade Shep look like a badly damaged T800 on some level, I would agree that the scarring is pretty dumb and over the top. Way too KotOR/JE/Fable for me.

Modifié par SidNitzerglobin, 18 février 2010 - 06:46 .

[Pauravi]

ZennExile wrote...

They need to go back to action / reaction and stop falling to this retarded good/evil plot trap. ME2 would have been ten million times the experience if Paragon/Renegade wasn't polar extreme good/evil.

I don't honestly think they were polar extremes.  I play exclusively Paragon, but I ended up with a lot more Renegade points than I did when I finished ME1.

In particular what to do with the genophage is an extremely gray question.  I chose to agree with Mordin's decision to use the genophage, even though the Paragon/compassionate thing to do was to say that it was wrong and to try to use the info for a cure.

In Garrus' personal quest, someone who is concerned with justice might allow Garrus to kill his old partner.  Sad as he was, he was unambiguously responsible for the deaths of his team mates.  It is not exactly the compassionate Paragon route, but it is certainly defensible, even from a moral standpoint.

I really don't think that the good/evil aspect was all that black-and-white in many places, and many of the renegade conversation options were very reasonable.

Modifié par Pauravi, 18 février 2010 - 07:28 .

[Amethyst Deceiver]

all i have to say is that it is REALLY BORING for a game to pre-define a clear distinction of "right" from "wrong".

so to answer the original question, no, it shouldnt always be a clearly "right" choice to go paragon. it just doesnt work that way and its far more interesting to have to compromise. there is no such thing in this world (or any world) as black or white.

[ZennExile]

Holy crap a not-stupid person. I ... I can't believe it. I promised myself I wouldn't cry...

[Pauravi]

Andorfiend wrote...

I don't think the Paragon option is always the right choice. Letting Elnora go for example. Or Balak and Charn in BDtS. I think those are clear exmples where the 'renegade' path is the correct or even good choice.

I agree about Elnora, but I can't say the same about Balak.  Blowing up all those people to stop him is morally ambiguous at best.  There are arguments to be made for both sides, certainly.  I always let him go to save those people, and I feel like I did the right thing.  But that's good that we can disagree -- it means boths paths are realistic and defensible.  Paragon is not "better".

[Darthnemesis2]

There are certainly places where the renegade options are too "I don't give a f#@$", but realisticly, most renegade options can be fairly easily defended. The problem that I have, however, is that it seems (to me) that some things need more intimidate than charm to resolve. For example, the Tali/Legion dispute on the Normandy, my character had somewhere between 75-80% renegade and couldn't use the intimidate option to force them to work together. Similarly, my same character, with about the same amount of renegade points, failed to resist Morinth in Samara's loyalty quest. In both instances a shepard with an equal number of paragon points would be able to make the charm choices.

[Amethyst Deceiver]

btw, i have to say though, that headbutting a krogan is a way better choice than not headbutting.

[Sharn01]

Darthnemesis2 wrote...

There are certainly places where the renegade options are too "I don't give a f#@$", but realisticly, most renegade options can be fairly easily defended. The problem that I have, however, is that it seems (to me) that some things need more intimidate than charm to resolve. For example, the Tali/Legion dispute on the Normandy, my character had somewhere between 75-80% renegade and couldn't use the intimidate option to force them to work together. Similarly, my same character, with about the same amount of renegade points, failed to resist Morinth in Samara's loyalty quest. In both instances a shepard with an equal number of paragon points would be able to make the charm choices.

Its actually always the same amount needed of either one, the problem is, depending on where you are at in the game it takes more paragon/renegade to accomplish the same task.

There is a guy with a vid on youtube that shows him settling the Miranda/Jack fight with around 40% renegade because he did it as early as possible in the game.

[Torguemada]

Paragon choises really arent allways the better ones.

For example in Mordins loyalty quest i think the best think to do is to keep the data and i could never make myself call Mordin a monster. Also the same think with the data from that captured Cerberus operative, i think uploading it to myself was the best choise.

[MutantSpleen]

There are very few cases where Paragon isn't this best choice, like you can count them on one hand. That being said I play Renegade just because I enjoy it more and it fits better with the persona I created in my head for my character, not that I never do Paragon, I usually end up full Renegade and about 25% to 50% Paragon.

That being said Mass Effect 1 I truely thought it was going to be a mix of interesting twists going into ME2 and that some renegade choices would turn out for the best and some would not. However I was sorely disappointed to see that pretty much there was no reason to ever do a Renegade action in ME1, as every Paragon choice in ME1 turned out better or at worst indifferent from its Renegade counterpart in ME2. Be that as it may my main will remain a Renegade and live with the consequences in ME3.

Overall I was really shocked at how one dimensional things turned out in Mass Effect vs. say Dragon Age where good choices don't always make good outcomes.

Modifié par MutantSpleen, 18 février 2010 - 12:18 .

[magnuskn]

ZennExile wrote...

Oh and short answer: No. There should be no more good/evil stereotypical hokey BS writing coming out of Bioware. They know better than to force good and evil into polar extreme choices that break down the depth of the story and turn it into Dr Sues

Only that they basically use it for every non-D&D game they make. KOTOR I+II, Jade Empire, Mass Effect 1+2.

They seem to be happy with it and so am I.

[UnAffectedFiddle]

This is why I cheated in the original ME:1 for full Renegade/Paragon. It meant coming into ME:2 I could play an actual human person devoid of a meter telling her she cant kick some ****** out a window because she found Sidonis not to be worth killing. Like Joker says, Zaeed is just like you, hes made bad choices, nasty decisions, but also good things alongside.



Also having read Joe Ambercombies books I found my Shep following a lot of the Renegade options for the criminals and so on while saving up Paragon choices for my teammates. This is where an arbitary good/evil system just fails because it assumes your character has to be a lifeless ****** to even people they care about.



The Renegade option felt entirely right during Tali's trial as well. Political bs about to ruin a good persons life. I also saved the Collectors Ships because its important to understand your enemies, the strength lies what you do with your knowledge. But I saved the council, because you need a strong and united government to avoid all out war.



That being said, Paragon seems to be a more idealistic view to the world, whereas Renegade seems to be more pragmatic. Though these often become either way to naive or way to agressive. I hoped my Shepard would give some harsh words to Mouse, not smash the poor kids nose to a bloody pulp.



If I can find a Machivelli...its late forgot how to spell the name...quote I'll post it, really made me think.

[Spell Singer]

Paragon is not good, Renegade is not evil. Some renegade choices lead to more satisfying outcomes then the paragon choice. No one who has ever been trained in leadership does not understand that some situations are handled best with some empathy and other times you need to kick the person in the butt.



The paragon choice with the batarian bartender ends up with a bystander shooting him, the renegade choice is you forcing him to drink the poison. He dies both ways.



In ME the paragon path for the Bathia Body mission is no where near as satisfying as using renegade on the clerk.



Renegade in the battle at Cora's den in the case of the 2 workers results in you saving their lives.



However, if you want to get people to work together, and ultimately that is to your advantage then paragon choices facilitate that better. This is as obvious as the day is long. But it doesn't make paragon choices "good." They are just sensible given the requirements of mission success, but equally true there are any number of situations better handled by the renegade option.



The other thing is that quite often the neutral stance is also the more sensible choice since no one is so "polarized" that they wander about doing either all "p" choices or all "r" choices all the time.

[Newman500]

I always think that the renegade options should be like the 'easy' option where you don't go to any extra effort to help people or do the 'right thing', as someone else said your getting the job done, it doesn't matter if a few innocents die on the way, its just about doing what you're sent to do and thats it. I think you should be punished for taking the paragon option sometimes or just situations made more difficult, its like on feros where you could just do the easy thing and kill the colonists attacking you, or you could spend more time and effort and gas them to keep them alive, thats how I think the system should work, it should always be harder to do the right thing, because it is in real life.

[keginkc]

I actually think Mass Effect 2 has done the best job of any BioWare game to date of balancing the system out, and making it easier to mix your choices. I think it is still geared more towards the heroic side of the equation, but all my runs have had me dipping pretty far into both meters. My latest run, a so-called "renegade run" is about 80% renegade and 50% paragon, with two more loyalty missions to go before the IFF. And I haven't done anything, on either side of the line, that violates the personal code of my character.



What I've found that's it's done is leave me free to make decisions based less on how the meter is going to fill out and more on how I want my character to honestly react. Sometimes I'll want to shoot somebody in the face, sometimes I'll want to hug somebody. I've not felt particularly 'evil' making a number of renegade decisions on my paragon, nor have I felt like I'm being 'good' doing something paragon as my renegade. It's closer to roleplaying for me now, less like min-maxing so I can make certain dialogue choices. Although it still does cost me sometimes, at least on the renegade, with so much of the blue bar filled.



Not that there still aren't twirling moustache moments that make me cringe to execute.

[MutantSpleen]

Spell Singer wrote...

Paragon is not good, Renegade is not evil. Some renegade choices lead to more satisfying outcomes then the paragon choice. No one who has ever been trained in leadership does not understand that some situations are handled best with some empathy and other times you need to kick the person in the butt.

The paragon choice with the batarian bartender ends up with a bystander shooting him, the renegade choice is you forcing him to drink the poison. He dies both ways.

In ME the paragon path for the Bathia Body mission is no where near as satisfying as using renegade on the clerk.

Renegade in the battle at Cora's den in the case of the 2 workers results in you saving their lives.

However, if you want to get people to work together, and ultimately that is to your advantage then paragon choices facilitate that better. This is as obvious as the day is long. But it doesn't make paragon choices "good." They are just sensible given the requirements of mission success, but equally true there are any number of situations better handled by the renegade option.

The other thing is that quite often the neutral stance is also the more sensible choice since no one is so "polarized" that they wander about doing either all "p" choices or all "r" choices all the time.

I agree with what you say, alot of the little minor choices, its more satisfying and fun to do the renegade action, but some of the big choices should have had the Renegde action being better and thats what is lacking in Mass Effect. Some of the naive, idealistic Paragon choices should have had bad outcomes but they don't. So much for a darker, grittier second act.

[Gabey5]

yeah a real badass wouldnt need to raise a hand

[AeradinME2]

while alot of times I see how paragon is generally the better outcome . Ex. Rachni

even when I play a renegade shepard I dont generally choose the renegade choices for the major choices in the game my motto is , theres a difference between just being an **** and being an Idiot.



Its not all messed up though there are some examples where paragon naivety really comes to back to bite you in the ass. Bringing down the sky download for the example its a known fact that if you let balak go in ME1 to save a few hostages that the bastard is still out there.



Elnora the merc in ME2 is another good example where renegade trumphs paragon because you learn should you let elnora go that it just so happens you let a murder run free to continue her career.



the way I look at it a full Paragon is hopeful optimistic person that believes in not only getting the job done but making sure they do it the right way but often times they take risks without knowing

everything so I see there major fault is being a bit more naive.



playing a full renegade on the other hand is much more straight to the point , there to get **** done no matter how they have to do it. Their much more pesimistic and cold . with a renegade you'll ****** off alot of people on the way hurting your relations with those individuals , however renegades are more likely to not take chances and kill a potential threat rather than seeing if it will be dangerous or helpful in the future.



My whole point is though paragon looks like the better choice there really isnt a perfect path to take because both sides have their own draw backs.

[Urazz]

UnAffectedFiddle wrote...

This is why I cheated in the original ME:1 for full Renegade/Paragon. It meant coming into ME:2 I could play an actual human person devoid of a meter telling her she cant kick some ****** out a window because she found Sidonis not to be worth killing. Like Joker says, Zaeed is just like you, hes made bad choices, nasty decisions, but also good things alongside.

Also having read Joe Ambercombies books I found my Shep following a lot of the Renegade options for the criminals and so on while saving up Paragon choices for my teammates. This is where an arbitary good/evil system just fails because it assumes your character has to be a lifeless ****** to even people they care about.

The Renegade option felt entirely right during Tali's trial as well. Political bs about to ruin a good persons life. I also saved the Collectors Ships because its important to understand your enemies, the strength lies what you do with your knowledge. But I saved the council, because you need a strong and united government to avoid all out war.

That being said, Paragon seems to be a more idealistic view to the world, whereas Renegade seems to be more pragmatic. Though these often become either way to naive or way to agressive. I hoped my Shepard would give some harsh words to Mouse, not smash the poor kids nose to a bloody pulp.

If I can find a Machivelli...its late forgot how to spell the name...quote I'll post it, really made me think.

yeah, I did that too for all my ME1 characters that are transferred to ME2.  Makes it much better to go through doing what feels right in the situation.  Though I admit while renegade is the pragmatic option, it's also the **** option at times too, which feels all too appropiate at times.

Needless to say, I rather just have a charm option like Dragon Age: Origins where you just leveled up the charm option and can then pick the option you want for the most part.

On a renegade choice ending up the better choice?  I'm thinking saving the Collector Base may actually end up being the better option, especially if you are given the option to kill the Illusive Man in ME3.

Modifié par Urazz, 18 février 2010 - 02:31 .

[MutantSpleen]

AeradinME2 wrote...

My whole point is though paragon looks like the better choice there really isnt a perfect path to take because both sides have their own draw backs.

So far I have yet to see, except a few minor choices, where doing the Paragon choice has a drawback.  Really the only thing to bite you in the ass in ME2 is the Eclipse asari that plays all innocent, even if you don't kill her, the cops are looking for her and shes on the run, its not that bad. You still solved the murder.

Can you name one significant choice where it pays to be Renegade?

That is the failing of Mass Effect 2. All your choices in ME1 were an illusion, there is no reason to play Renegade other than for the hell of it.  However if you did go Renegade in ME1 you could have potentially screwed yourself big time in ME3 if things work out like people are thinking.

I realize that they could have some of those Renegade things pay off in ME3, but I doubt it, since this was supposed to be the "dark second act" yet everything turned out for the best if you went full Paragon in ME1.

[SymbolicGamer]

No.

I hate when games do this.

Fable II did it with Good and Evil.

Every main plot choice where you had a decision to make,  the good choice was always better than the evil one.

If you think about it, in real life the "evil" choice should be more rewarding.

It sucked. It doesn't become much of a choice at that point. You just go with whatever gives the best outcome.

I noticed Mass Effect is guilty of this too.

Spare someone and they'll show up in Mass Effect 2. Kill someone, and that's the end of it. No one seeking revenge, no crimelords rising to power because you eliminated their enemy.. You just miss out.

Newton's third law must not apply to video games.

[R34P3RR3D33M3R]

SymbolicGamer wrote...

Fable II did it with Good and Evil.

Every main plot choice where you had a decision to make,  the good choice was always better than the evil one.

If you think about it, in real life the "evil" choice should be more rewarding.

Well, the final choice in Fable wasn't so clean cut. Picking the "good choice" left you without your dog, and, if applicable, your wife and kid stayed dead. I for one picked the "neutral choice" there, getting my family back instead of the random tower builder people.

And as you say, in real life the "evil" choice should be more rewarding - so why can't it be the other way around in videogames? Plenty of ****s in real life, I don't mind the occasional happy end in a videogame.

[SymbolicGamer]

R34P3RR3D33M3R wrote...

Well, the final choice in Fable wasn't so clean cut. Picking the "good
choice" left you without your dog, and, if applicable, your wife and
kid stayed dead. I for one picked the "neutral choice" there, getting
my family back instead of the random tower builder people.

And
as you say, in real life the "evil" choice should be more rewarding -
so why can't it be the other way around in videogames? Plenty of ****s
in real life, I don't mind the occasional happy end in a videogame.

Neutral is the best choice if you don't have Knothole Island. If you do, sacrifice is the best option because you get a statue. Wealth just gives you a treasure chest with some gold, which is useless with all the gold you make off the rent.

Look at the other major choices. The only one that's even comparible is the one you make during childhood about who to give the warrants to. Either way, Old Town grows. Just in different directions.

Every other major choice has you helping a village (or farm) expand, or destroying it, which just results in less property to buy up.

Modifié par SymbolicGamer, 18 février 2010 - 03:37 .