113 réponses à ce sujet

[hamskii]

i played mostly a paragon, and found not curing the genophage to be a more satisfactory outcome - the paragon route, while maybe necessary to fight the reapers, would truly screw the galaxy over in the long run. isn't playing a paragon all about not compromising who you are because of fear?



i will admit, after pushing around mouse, i heard his story and felt so bad i had to reload to before D:

[SuperZombieChow]

The only real time I had a serious issue with the Paragon/Renegade system was at the very end of the game. If you go Paragon everybody talks about what a great, mature decision it was and if you go Renegade everyone tells you you made a mistake. To hell with that, why would Miranda not want to see the base in Cerberus hands?



The rest of the game, it seemed to me that Renegade and Paragon could have been renamed Blunt and Diplomatic. Several of the renegade conversation choices seem like you are being a jerk, but really you are just being honest. I would love to see renegade options be the "better in the long run" choices more often, so that going through as a paragon isn't the only way to win.



If the final battle is nigh unto impossible for Renegades because they've "alienated" everyone, then I'll be very dissapointed. Certain races should be attracted to a renegade, others to a paragon.

[Kenshen]

DarthCaine wrote...

In BioWare games, it's always like that (the only exception being the Harrowmont/Bhelen choice and the dwarven chantry)

Looks like BioWare learned nothing from The Witcher

What exactly is there to learn from The Witcher?  There is one thing that came out of KotoR 2 that has stuck with me is a line from Kiera about always doing the right thing or always helping others isn't always the best thing to do.  So in that light if you do everything paragon there should be some negative outcomes from that. 

[Enoch VG]

aryon69 wrote...
What exactly is there to learn from The Witcher?  

Don't make an RPG based on the twin pillars of repetitive rythm-game-based combat and mysogyny. 

On the general topic, Bioware isn't stupid-- they're not going to blindside the player with overwhelming consequences to decisions made in ME1 and ME2.  They'll drop names to give us the warm fuzzies, but the core challenges of ME3 are probably going to be much the same as they are for people who haven't played the first two in the series. 

[Skilled Seeker]

Esker02 wrote...

They might pull a "Oh Harrowmont's a good guy. Chantry for the Dwarves seems like a positive change. How could I go wrong doing these morally correct things?" on chumps that blew the base up.

I hope so, anyway.

lol me too! I chose those choices in DA and was surprised at the end when they didn't turn out well  I kept the base in ME however. My Bioware characters always tend to be fairly neutral with slightly more paragon points but the renegade endings.

[Skilled Seeker]

Landline wrote...

This is why I don't play as a Paragon or Renegade, I just pretend that system doesn't exist and just play however I want.

I don't mind not being able to use the occasional persuade/intimidate like many people.

Me too I just play myself. Why people want to go pure paragon or renegade and get upset if they get a few points of the other always puzzles me.

Modifié par Skilled Seeker, 18 février 2010 - 07:19 .

[Aisynia]

Sorry if this has been posted...



Two words: Lawful stupid.

[JJ Long]

I play paragon most of the time but if a renegade interrupt works, I'll use it.

Two places I always do renegade interrupts are the monologuing Wrylock krogan and the Mercs in Miranda's loyalty quest.

They are just idiot thugs telling you how great they are and how screwed you are, why listen to that crap. Interrupt and blow them to hell.

[slackbheep]

Much like other Bioware games in the past, the "Right(eous)" choice, can often have unforseen or unfortunate consequences, and often Renegade choices don't represent a misanthropic or selfish point of view but a more prudent and realistic response.

[RiouHotaru]

JJ Long wrote...

I play paragon most of the time but if a renegade interrupt works, I'll use it.
Two places I always do renegade interrupts are the monologuing Wrylock krogan and the Mercs in Miranda's loyalty quest.
They are just idiot thugs telling you how great they are and how screwed you are, why listen to that crap. Interrupt and blow them to hell.

Agreed.  Also, there's a reason Paragon may come off as being "better", it's easier to get along with folks when you're...you know, NOT being an ****?  I find it funny that the Renegades get upset about Paragons getting better responses, as Shepard says to TIM: "You ever tried being nice to people for a change?"

[ZennExile]

RiouHotaru wrote...

JJ Long wrote...

I play paragon most of the time but if a renegade interrupt works, I'll use it.
Two places I always do renegade interrupts are the monologuing Wrylock krogan and the Mercs in Miranda's loyalty quest.
They are just idiot thugs telling you how great they are and how screwed you are, why listen to that crap. Interrupt and blow them to hell.

Agreed.  Also, there's a reason Paragon may come off as being "better", it's easier to get along with folks when you're...you know, NOT being an ****?  I find it funny that the Renegades get upset about Paragons getting better responses, as Shepard says to TIM: "You ever tried being nice to people for a change?"

No it comes off better because instead of following the choice/reaction model some idiot at Bioware decided it would be better if they went full on glamour good vs evil nonsense and completely ruined any semblence of true choice.

[RiouHotaru]

ZennExile wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

JJ Long wrote...

I play paragon most of the time but if a renegade interrupt works, I'll use it.
Two places I always do renegade interrupts are the monologuing Wrylock krogan and the Mercs in Miranda's loyalty quest.
They are just idiot thugs telling you how great they are and how screwed you are, why listen to that crap. Interrupt and blow them to hell.

Agreed.  Also, there's a reason Paragon may come off as being "better", it's easier to get along with folks when you're...you know, NOT being an ****?  I find it funny that the Renegades get upset about Paragons getting better responses, as Shepard says to TIM: "You ever tried being nice to people for a change?"

No it comes off better because instead of following the choice/reaction model some idiot at Bioware decided it would be better if they went full on glamour good vs evil nonsense and completely ruined any semblence of true choice.

It's not good versus evil, it's nice versus jerk.  Why is it unrealistic that people don't like you for being a jerk?  (Well except for Krogan, they think that's cool stuff)

[ZennExile]

RiouHotaru wrote...

ZennExile wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

JJ Long wrote...

I play paragon most of the time but if a renegade interrupt works, I'll use it.
Two places I always do renegade interrupts are the monologuing Wrylock krogan and the Mercs in Miranda's loyalty quest.
They are just idiot thugs telling you how great they are and how screwed you are, why listen to that crap. Interrupt and blow them to hell.

Agreed.  Also, there's a reason Paragon may come off as being "better", it's easier to get along with folks when you're...you know, NOT being an ****?  I find it funny that the Renegades get upset about Paragons getting better responses, as Shepard says to TIM: "You ever tried being nice to people for a change?"

No it comes off better because instead of following the choice/reaction model some idiot at Bioware decided it would be better if they went full on glamour good vs evil nonsense and completely ruined any semblence of true choice.

It's not good versus evil, it's nice versus jerk.  Why is it unrealistic that people don't like you for being a jerk?  (Well except for Krogan, they think that's cool stuff)

Did you play the game or are you just here for giggles?  Every single choice in this game boils down to Paragon = Good and Renegade = Evil.   The only choice that can even be considered blurry is the final choice in the game, to destroy or salvage the collector base.  And even that is fairly clear good vs evil if you pay attention to the story and the fact that the Illusive Man is out to DOMINATE THE GALAXY not just save humanity.

So yeah, you are as far from being correct as anyone can be.

[Jlop985]

ZennExile wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

ZennExile wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

JJ Long wrote...

I play paragon most of the time but if a renegade interrupt works, I'll use it.
Two places I always do renegade interrupts are the monologuing Wrylock krogan and the Mercs in Miranda's loyalty quest.
They are just idiot thugs telling you how great they are and how screwed you are, why listen to that crap. Interrupt and blow them to hell.

Agreed.  Also, there's a reason Paragon may come off as being "better", it's easier to get along with folks when you're...you know, NOT being an ****?  I find it funny that the Renegades get upset about Paragons getting better responses, as Shepard says to TIM: "You ever tried being nice to people for a change?"

No it comes off better because instead of following the choice/reaction model some idiot at Bioware decided it would be better if they went full on glamour good vs evil nonsense and completely ruined any semblence of true choice.

It's not good versus evil, it's nice versus jerk.  Why is it unrealistic that people don't like you for being a jerk?  (Well except for Krogan, they think that's cool stuff)

Did you play the game or are you just here for giggles?  Every single choice in this game boils down to Paragon = Good and Renegade = Evil.   The only choice that can even be considered blurry is the final choice in the game, to destroy or salvage the collector base.  And even that is fairly clear good vs evil if you pay attention to the story and the fact that the Illusive Man is out to DOMINATE THE GALAXY not just save humanity.

So yeah, you are as far from being correct as anyone can be.

No, it's "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" versus "complete the mission at any cost." Or nice guy versus jerk. I personally blew the base, but keeping it is not an evil act. Even if you know full well that TIM wants to take over the galaxy, it could be a risk one is willing to take, since the Reapers are coming and they are going to kill everyone.

[RiouHotaru]

ZennExile wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

ZennExile wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

JJ Long wrote...

I play paragon most of the time but if a renegade interrupt works, I'll use it.
Two places I always do renegade interrupts are the monologuing Wrylock krogan and the Mercs in Miranda's loyalty quest.
They are just idiot thugs telling you how great they are and how screwed you are, why listen to that crap. Interrupt and blow them to hell.

Agreed.  Also, there's a reason Paragon may come off as being "better", it's easier to get along with folks when you're...you know, NOT being an ****?  I find it funny that the Renegades get upset about Paragons getting better responses, as Shepard says to TIM: "You ever tried being nice to people for a change?"

No it comes off better because instead of following the choice/reaction model some idiot at Bioware decided it would be better if they went full on glamour good vs evil nonsense and completely ruined any semblence of true choice.

It's not good versus evil, it's nice versus jerk.  Why is it unrealistic that people don't like you for being a jerk?  (Well except for Krogan, they think that's cool stuff)

Did you play the game or are you just here for giggles?  Every single choice in this game boils down to Paragon = Good and Renegade = Evil.   The only choice that can even be considered blurry is the final choice in the game, to destroy or salvage the collector base.  And even that is fairly clear good vs evil if you pay attention to the story and the fact that the Illusive Man is out to DOMINATE THE GALAXY not just save humanity.

So yeah, you are as far from being correct as anyone can be.

I've played the game repeatedly, I'm currently on an Insanity run, and I think you're nuts.  It's quite clearly NOT Paragon = good and Renegade = evil.  Some of the choices may feel like that due to how differently the reaction or dialogue comes across as, but I have not a clue what you're talking about.  I mean, look at the conversation with Ashley/Kaidan on Horizon.  I don't see good/evil there.

[Pauravi]

ZennExile wrote...

Did you play the game or are you just here for giggles?  Every single choice in this game boils down to Paragon = Good and Renegade = Evil.   The only choice that can even be considered blurry is the final choice in the game, to destroy or salvage the collector base.

I can't even take you seriously.

You think that the genophage question is a clear good vs. evil scenario, that agreeing with its use is evil?
That it is morally indefensible to think that Garrus' partner deserves to be punished?
That it's evil to help Liara try and nail the group that tried to sell your corpse to the Collectors?
That it is completely wrong to agree with Tali's desire to retake her home world?
Or to destroy the Geth rather than re-write them?
The Paragon route with the hiding Eclipse merc leads you to release a murderer!

This game is less black and white than ME1 was, and FAR more than pretty much any other game I can think of that has a morality system.  I really have no idea what you're talking about.

Modifié par Pauravi, 18 février 2010 - 09:06 .

[ScooterPie88]

The choice that kinda pissed me off in the game was the one where it was supposedly renegade to shoot the Eclipse Merc who pulls a gun on you (Samara's recruitment).  You later find out she's a murderer.  If you're a cop which a Spectre is basically a cop with expanded powers that would be a justified shooting by today's standards.  I don't see why self defense is a "Renegade" action.  Maybe that's just because I happen to be in law enforcement.

[Computron2000]

SymbolicGamer wrote...
If you think about it, in real life the "evil" choice should be more rewarding.

Actually i find evil choices normally end up getting you short term rewards (gold, xp, etc) but screws you in the end. you can find such cases in some MMORPGs where some people with a very bad reputation stay that way and no one bothers teaming up with them.

That said, many renegade choices aren't really evil

Modifié par Computron2000, 18 février 2010 - 09:32 .

[Jlop985]

ScooterPie88 wrote...

The choice that kinda pissed me off in the game was the one where it was supposedly renegade to shoot the Eclipse Merc who pulls a gun on you (Samara's recruitment).  You later find out she's a murderer.  If you're a cop which a Spectre is basically a cop with expanded powers that would be a justified shooting by today's standards.  I don't see why self defense is a "Renegade" action.  Maybe that's just because I happen to be in law enforcement.

See, this is an excellent example of when a renegade choice makes more sense. Renegades are more aggressive than paragons, but sometimes, their actions are warranted.

In my playthrough. I just went with how I would react in a situation. I ended up with almost full paragon, but also with 25% renegade.

[Pauravi]

ScooterPie88 wrote...

The choice that kinda pissed me off in the game was the one where it was supposedly renegade to shoot the Eclipse Merc who pulls a gun on you (Samara's recruitment).  You later find out she's a murderer.  If you're a cop which a Spectre is basically a cop with expanded powers that would be a justified shooting by today's standards.  I don't see why self defense is a "Renegade" action.  Maybe that's just because I happen to be in law enforcement.

Because I think you're thinking of Renegade as being mean or something, or that it is the bad or evil option.  It isn't.  The fact that it is justifiable doesn't mean that it can't be Renegade.  Paragon vs. Renegade is more about compassion versus practicality than it is about good vs. bad.

Think of it this way; you're Commander Shepard.  You've survived a thousand firefights and been shot plenty of times, and lived to tell about it.  You have more advanced armor and weaponry, and two armed squad members at your side.  The threat a lone merc poses seems fairly minimal.  She obviously seems scared, and if you take her story at face value then the compassionate way to go would be to let her go.  That doesn't mean that it is indefensible to take her out, though -- she could VERY well be (in fact she is) a criminal, and self defense is a perfectly reasonable option, but it is still renegade compared to letting her go.

Modifié par Pauravi, 19 février 2010 - 01:34 .

[The_Juggern0tt]

I noticed most in jack's loyalty mission when you tell her to kill Aresh. I was like, WTF? Which one of us is the psycopath again?

[Schneidend]

Paragon isn't always the better choice at all. Look at the Kenn/Harrot quest on Omega. The Intimidate was the most mutually beneficial choice, as Harrot expanded his business and Kenn got the funds for a ticket off-station without Shepard having to stoop to giving a man a fish.

[CitizenSNlPS]

Pauravi wrote...

ZennExile wrote...

Did you play the game or are you just here for giggles?  Every single choice in this game boils down to Paragon = Good and Renegade = Evil.   The only choice that can even be considered blurry is the final choice in the game, to destroy or salvage the collector base.

I can't even take you seriously.

You think that the genophage question is a clear good vs. evil scenario, that agreeing with its use is evil?
That it is morally indefensible to think that Garrus' partner deserves to be punished?
That it's evil to help Liara try and nail the group that tried to sell your corpse to the Collectors?
That it is completely wrong to agree with Tali's desire to retake her home world?
Or to destroy the Geth rather than re-write them?
The Paragon route with the hiding Eclipse merc leads you to release a murderer!

This game is less black and white than ME1 was, and FAR more than pretty much any other game I can think of that has a morality system.  I really have no idea what you're talking about.

Yeah but all the Paragon choices are the ones that seem the most beneficial to the character (so far). Re-writing them suggests that we can potentially get them as an ally in ME3. I think it is unlikely that they wil actually turn against us and destory everyone. Morally I think that decision is hard to make, but when you look at it gameplay wise then it seems fairly obvious that re-writing them will be more beneficial. What I'm mainly complaining about is that there haven't been Renegade options which seem to actually benefit the player. I think the system overall is very good and it is nice to have options, I just made the topic to say I hope they improve on the system.

[Aaren J]

In my opinion, replacing paragon / renegade with principled/pragmatic would be the way forward. I have to say that a lot of renegade choices in ME1 and 2 make Shepard seem like a sociopath.