113 réponses à ce sujet

[the120Truth]

A Blind Bandit wrote...

I don't like that it forces you to choose one side or the other if you want to hold onto everyones loyalty. Makes it impossible to be in the middle.

But, it dosn't.  I played in the middle and had everyone's loyality.  You can solve the Miranda/Jack dispute fairly easily with renegade, and the Tali/Legion dispute fairly easily with paragon.  I ended up with about 80% renegade and about 65% paragon and didn't have a problem

[Vagula]

GodWood wrote...

Lots of the renegade choices made perfect sense though.
• Killing Sidonis.
• Saving the Collector base.
• destroying the cure for the krogan.
• killing Jacob's father.
• Focusing on Sovereign.
• the BDtS DLC.

They make sense from a roleplaying perspective, but so far there hasn't been any consequences that would give any reason to play as renegade (other than being an ass). I mostly play as paragon but I honestly think that some paragon choises (like destroying the base or saving the rachni) should bite you in the ass in ME3.

[tropicalwave]

I never looked at Paragon/Renegade as being good/evil. The scaring would make one lead down that road and the colors might too, but I viewed them more as this: Paragon, good for the many and Renegade, good for the Shepard. On both sides so far there doesn't seem to be any consequences that have come from doing either. I've played both Paragon/Renegade (and both have done the other at times) and Paragrade (getting both up into the last 'bubble.")



It just seems to be all dialog that comes from them. What I think is a shame is that there, so far, seems to be no outcome that effects the overall scheme other than some options in dialog. For example when you are doing the Garus recruitment it is a renegade option to kill the mech, which seemed odd to me considering you were about to knowingly kill plenty of mercs. Was this just becuase he was defensless?



With Conrad you could lie to hm as a paragon choice. I liked that. It made the choices more interesting where telling the truth would hurt him more than lying would. I want more like that. I also want all my choices so far to come back and bite me in some way. There is no black and white and I sense that they are leading us down a path that will turn on us (or at least I hope so.)



The biggest problem is that it is a game limited to coding and that is a problem. Consider that right now they have to deal with basically three choices (paragon/renegade and the default). Image how much more complicated and bug leaden it could become. Ex. Concrad, it is stuck where you pulled the gun on hiim in ME1. It would be horrible if that bug were throughout the game.



Oh and I bet you that if you saved the Merc she'll be back to haunt you. Though of course if you killed her I bet her sister will be coming after you. (they do have to try and give equal missions for choices you made.) Then again they could make things impossible on a larger scale based on what you did and ignore all the whinning that WOULD come from that. I vote for that choice.



If I did the Paragon choice in Zaeed's mission then his nemisis will come after us big time. If I saved the merc on Samara's mission then she is with him as like second in command or something. Lets play up the choices on the loyalty missions. If you were 'good' then you closed off missions.

[Zulu_DFA]

Ah, yes... "BIG CHOICES"...


Paragon =/= good
Renegade =/= bad

As was explained by the "scars system" (see: Dr. Chackwas e-mail) it's not about morality, it's about emotions. Something like Paragon = tranquil, Renegade = frantic.

Good = stopping the Reapers or making this outcome more likely.
Bad = letting the Reapers eradicate all sapient life or making this outcome more likely.

So far both Paragon AND Renegade choices carried Shepard apparently closer to stopping the Reapers. Like the Devs say: either way Commander Shepard is the Champion of Survival (Good).

The question is: can Shepard even fail? In the end of ME3, that is. The way he could die on the "suicide mission"?

If the Bad (Reapers win) outcome is possible in ME3, and it somehow involves the choices that have been made in ME1&2, then those choices are inherently good or bad.

So, we have to wait till the Grand Final Battle of ME3, which will be the ultimate measure of how good or bad this or that choice was.

If the choices made so far are not going to affect the "winnability" of the Final Battle, then they are all Neutral from the moral point of view, and only have emotional value.

If they do affect the outcome of the Final Battle, they have moral value. They are Good or Bad. But it's definitely not like only the Paragon choices will help win the Final Battle and the Renegade choices will necessarily hamper the ultimate victory.

Tranquil =/= good
Frantic =/= bad

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 26 février 2010 - 08:58 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Ah, yes... "BIG CHOICES"...


Paragon =/= good
Renegade =/= bad

As was explained by the "scars system" (see: Dr. Chackwas e-mail) it's not about morality, it's about emotions. Something like Paragon = tranquil, Renegade = frantic.

Good = stopping the Reapers or making this outcome more likely.
Bad = letting the Reapers eradicate all sapient life or making this outcome more likely.

So far both Paragon AND Renegade choices carried Shepard apparently closer to stopping the Reapers. Like the Devs say: either way Commander Shepard is the Champion of Survival (Good).

The question is: can Shepard even fail? In the end of ME3, that is. The way he could die on the "suicide mission"?

If the Bad (Reapers win) outcome is possible in ME3, and it somehow involves the choices that have been made in ME1&2, then those choices are inherently good or bad.

So, we have to wait till the Grand Final Battle of ME3, which will be the ultimate measure of how good or bad this or that choice was.

If the choices made so far are not going to affect the "winnability" of the Final Battle, then they are all Neutral from the moral point of view, and only have emotional value.

If they do affect the outcome of the Final Battle, they have moral value. They are Good or Bad. But it's definitely not like only the Paragon choices will help win the Final Battle and the Renegade choices will necessarily hamper the ultimate victory.

Tranquil =/= good
Frantic =/= bad

And the conclusion is this:

When you click on the BLUE you don't necessarily make the Galaxy a "better place". You make your Shepard-Commander more TRANQUIL.

Likewise, the RED line does not mean you harmed the Galaxy, You just became +5 points more FRANTIC guy.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 26 février 2010 - 09:06 .

[Kurt M.]

Terraneaux wrote...

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

In ME1 the Renegade was pragmatic, in ME2 some Renegade choices are more just being an **** and even some of the characters comment on that.

To be honest, both of the philosophies failed at times, even in ME1.  Sometimes the Renegade was just being an ass (like killing the colonists on Feros instead of gassing them)

In a real firefight, you wouldn't be so compassionate to the ones who shoot at you, even if they're not themselves. I assure you.

[Zulu_DFA]

Gladiador2 wrote...

Terraneaux wrote...

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

In ME1 the Renegade was pragmatic, in ME2 some Renegade choices are more just being an **** and even some of the characters comment on that.

To be honest, both of the philosophies failed at times, even in ME1.  Sometimes the Renegade was just being an ass (like killing the colonists on Feros instead of gassing them)

In a real firefight, you wouldn't be so compassionate to the ones who shoot at you, even if they're not themselves. I assure you.

I remember the Feros mission on my first playthrough. I tried to gas / knock them down, but the thorian creepers got thick and I ended up shooting at everything that moved. Less then half colonists survived and the colony was shut down.

That's one of the few 'choices" I was compelled to replay later in a more "correct" way, after certain meta-gaming.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 26 février 2010 - 09:32 .

[Wynne]

As a primarily Paragon/Paragade player, I say NO.

In cases like the one where you save the Rachni queen, I think that should benefit the player, since there are clear reasons. But in cases like Bring Down the Sky, I don't WANT that to benefit the Paragon. I want my pure Paragon character to say "Oh, God, what have I done?" when that batarian son of a biatch causes even worse damage than he would have on Terra Nova.

I want being TOO much of a paladin to bite the Paragon in the ass. HARD.

DarthCaine wrote...

In BioWare games, it's always like that (the only exception being the Harrowmont/Bhelen choice and the dwarven chantry)

Looks like BioWare learned nothing from The Witcher

I have to both agree with you and hope that ME3 proves this ENTIRELY wrong. I want pragmatism to rule the day. I want going with your gut and your instincts and your clever side to pay off, rather than just picking pure Paragon/Renegade points and having it turn out just fine either way.

The Witcher was brilliant and unique in this regard. I want there to be a logic behind the payoff either way; I want to be able to say, "Okay, I can see why it turned out like that..." but I don't want everything to turn out the way the Paragon expects. I want Bioware to really whip it out for the final act and make my heart sink in my chest when I see how things turned out.

I do want the good I tried to do to make a difference... but only when it makes sense. I want to be rewarded for having an insight like the fact that the Rachni were indoctrinated and that's why they deserved saving, because the wars were not their fault in the first place--but I also want to be punished for sparing a terrorist. It will feel cheap, fake, and stupid if that batarian ends up turning his life around or being caught or just popping up for Shepard to conveniently slap him down.

I want sparing him to have WORSE consequences by about a hundred times the damage of just killing him in the first game. I don't care if it's controversial. Shiny white heroism is unrealistic and lame. While I LOVE to death feeling like I made a difference, helped somebody, healed somebody even when it gained me nothing, I can't stand it if just always making the shiny, cuddly choice just conveniently happens to have no serious consequences.

As a Paragon, I want to be rewarded for clever, pragmatic, realistic heroism and punished for every moment that I failed to consider the consequences of acting on emotion and doing what makes me feel like a good little Shepard rather than taking the gut punch to the conscience for the sake of causing a worse ripple effect. 

As a Renegade, I want to be rewarded for brutal, decisive efficiency and punished for every moment I failed to consider the consequences of destroying somebody who was probably worth saving.

And overall, I want to feel like my choices matter; like balance in all things is a valid concept; like if I'd been clever enough I could have foreseen everything that happened. I don't want to be shouting at the screen, "this is STUPID! This makes no SENSE!" but rather, to feel like my character made the right decision for their personality at the time and the fitting consequences came into play.

Modifié par Wynne, 26 février 2010 - 09:47 .

[Wynne]

Lucky, while I respect where you're going with this and agree wholeheartedly, I actually think that the genophage and Rachni stuff would be bad examples--the Rachni were indoctrinated and they will be powerful allies in ME3; I don't think anybody should be punished for having an insight into the plot that leads them to reject genocide. And curing the genophage, well, that's a bit more ambiguous and maybe long-term it would be bad, but then again if they're fighting the Reapers, losing tons of Krogan in the battle against them is short-term a very good idea. Maybe more so if you kept Wrex alive than if you didn't, though.

I think BDtS is the biggest "bite the Paragon on the ass" qualifier. I'd like to see a few planets full of potential allies blow up at the beginning of ME3 and get an angry mob of parents of children who died on those planets screaming their hatred at Shepard.

They really need to make this balance out or it will feel cheap in ME3. But maybe that's why they make it so hard to get good outcomes without high Renegade/Paragon points--to keep people from being able to metagame easily.

Modifié par Wynne, 26 février 2010 - 11:09 .

[Kloreep]

I also prefer to see Paragon = Best Choice broken. Not that it can't be some of the time, but things seem to turn out well for the Paragon a little often.

There are certainly nice exceptions though BDTS is one. Another I'd point to in ME2 is whether you give the scared Eclipse recruit the benefit of the doubt in Samara's recruitment and let her go. It seems like the good paragon thing to do at the time, especially since she claims to have thought better of joining Eclipse, but later you discover she committed the recent murder and has no regrets at all. That was a nice kick in the pants for my two-shoed Paragon, and something I keep expecting to happen more often - but it so rarely does.

Modifié par Kloreep, 26 février 2010 - 11:51 .

[Hyper Cutter]

GodWood wrote...

Lots of the renegade choices made perfect sense though.
• Killing Sidonis.
• Saving the Collector base.
• destroying the cure for the krogan.
• killing Jacob's father.
• Focusing on Sovereign.
• the BDtS DLC.

"Focus on Sovereign" is the neutral choice, the renegade choice is "Let the Council Die".

[Zulu_DFA]

Hyper Cutter wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Lots of the renegade choices made perfect sense though.
• Killing Sidonis.
• Saving the Collector base.
• destroying the cure for the krogan.
• killing Jacob's father.
• Focusing on Sovereign.
• the BDtS DLC.

"Focus on Sovereign" is the neutral choice, the renegade choice is "Let the Council Die".

Nice example how the Paragon/Renegade =/= Good/Evil. The essense and the result of both choices are the same (Council dies), the difference is solely in Shepard's attitude towards his own actions. Acting out of pure necessity gives almost equal amount of paragon and renegade points (neutral attidude). Acting with rage, taking pleasure in sacrificing the Council = franric attitude, gives a lot of renegade points.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 27 février 2010 - 02:27 .