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[GuardianAngel470]

 One thing to note is that the heretics only consist of about 5% of all geth, so rewriting them vs destroying them is kind of a moot point in the end.  Give the geth a year and they'll have replaced every lost geth, but it will still only be about 5%. I think it said like 2.4 million mobile platforms and x number of geth run times.  In the grand scheme of things, geth are more easily replaced than organics, and legion also tells you that there is a non-zero probability of error when rewriting them, so it's also a case of better safe than sorry.

Just my thoughts though, no need to go spreading it around.

[Spyndel]

Its definitely a "lesser of two evils" dilemma, similar to the situation Mordin faced with the Krogan. If those are your only two options, physical obliteration or modification, when looked at in the larger scheme of things of the heretics being tools for the Reapers and a threat to all life in the galaxy, its clearly the paragon option. Its the best decision possible, but not a comfortable one.

[Madecologist]

Talking to Legion after is metaknowledge. You do not know that when you make your decision. The approach they have is they are not oragins so our misconception of brainwashing is evil does not apply cleanly to them. We accept the brutality of war and the admit that an enemy base needs to be destroyed and it will cost lives. But the Geth have a solution, why not use it?

The whole but Brainwashing is wrong is something that applies to Organics, can.. the same be true for AIs. Hence it was a tough choice. You oddly get the reasons why re-write seems to be the Paragon choice if you do Renegade arguements with Legion during his talk spots.

Also I think even if the vote is a near tie, in the strictest of Democracy rules, re-write wins. 2 votes are still 2 votes. So Re-write is Paragon because Shepard also agrees to the vote, no matter how minor the margin of victory.

[Cutlass Jack]

Madecologist wrote...

Also I think even if the vote is a near tie, in the strictest of Democracy rules, re-write wins. 2 votes are still 2 votes. So Re-write is Paragon because Shepard also agrees to the vote, no matter how minor the margin of victory.

Not when you 'Tali' the votes. (ouch that pun hurt me.)

[Lareit]

Madecologist wrote...

Talking to Legion after is metaknowledge. You do not know that when you make your decision. The approach they have is they are not oragins so our misconception of brainwashing is evil does not apply cleanly to them. We accept the brutality of war and the admit that an enemy base needs to be destroyed and it will cost lives. But the Geth have a solution, why not use it?
The whole but Brainwashing is wrong is something that applies to Organics, can.. the same be true for AIs. Hence it was a tough choice. You oddly get the reasons why re-write seems to be the Paragon choice if you do Renegade arguements with Legion during his talk spots.
Also I think even if the vote is a near tie, in the strictest of Democracy rules, re-write wins. 2 votes are still 2 votes. So Re-write is Paragon because Shepard also agrees to the vote, no matter how minor the margin of victory.

I typically take tali with me for that mission.
She's against rewrite. So is my shepard. It's a tie. He left the vote to me, which gives me additional power.

And yes brainwashing is wrong from an organic standpoint, the whole purpose of judging geth as more then just machines is why brainwashing them is equally wrong. If you want to start applying your own brand of synthetic morals, then admiral Darro'Xeen is right and putting them back under the yoke of the quarians isn't a bad thing to do.

[Whailor]

So rewriting is "bad" but killing millions of them is "OK"? How silly is that? Besides, the Reapers wouldn't bother with Geth anymore. To Reapers Geth already failed, just like the Collectors did in the end, and as Harbringer said, "we'll find another way". Reapers don't "re-use" or give a second chance. So no, they would not try to "re-indoctrinate" the Geth. And some of you should really read more of the text in game, all of the heretic programs were rewritten and old data wiped so they won't get any such "ideas" again. They'll connect to geth network, get programs downloaded and that's that.

[Cutlass Jack]

Whailor wrote...

So rewriting is "bad" but killing millions of them is "OK"? How silly is that? Besides, the Reapers wouldn't bother with Geth anymore. To Reapers Geth already failed, just like the Collectors did in the end, and as Harbringer said, "we'll find another way". Reapers don't "re-use" or give a second chance. So no, they would not try to "re-indoctrinate" the Geth. And some of you should really read more of the text in game, all of the heretic programs were rewritten and old data wiped so they won't get any such "ideas" again. They'll connect to geth network, get programs downloaded and that's that.

You should read it closer yourself. Its mentioned that there was a 'non zero' chance of them getting ideas like that again, and that the Heretic Geth rejoining would likely be 'traumatic' once they shared memories.

And again, the Heretics thought killing everyone on Eden Prime was 'OK.' They made their choice.

[Lareit]

Whailor wrote...

So rewriting is "bad" but killing millions of them is "OK"? How silly is that? Besides, the Reapers wouldn't bother with Geth anymore. To Reapers Geth already failed, just like the Collectors did in the end, and as Harbringer said, "we'll find another way". Reapers don't "re-use" or give a second chance. So no, they would not try to "re-indoctrinate" the Geth. And some of you should really read more of the text in game, all of the heretic programs were rewritten and old data wiped so they won't get any such "ideas" again. They'll connect to geth network, get programs downloaded and that's that.

It's not ok, it's simply better.

and i paid close attention to those conversations. The heretics choose to align with Soverign, it was never a matter of him rewriting them. They adapted to suit the needs of their god.

Legions math anology was simply to proove they weren't malfuntioning, that they simply were processing a different equation then True Geth.

When you brainwash someone you kill them. You then replace them with something else, that something else is not the same being it was before, and is now a mockery of what they once were. It is an injustice far greater then simply killing.

Modifié par Lareit, 18 février 2010 - 08:53 .

[OH-UP-THIS!]

Not at all, why?

it's not like they get all mopey, and need a hug!

[Madecologist]

Lareit wrote...

I typically take tali with me for that mission.
She's against rewrite. So is my shepard. It's a tie. He left the vote to me, which gives me additional power.

And yes brainwashing is wrong from an organic standpoint, the whole purpose of judging geth as more then just machines is why brainwashing them is equally wrong. If you want to start applying your own brand of synthetic morals, then admiral Darro'Xeen is right and putting them back under the yoke of the quarians isn't a bad thing to do.

I personally I agree with you. I am just listing the logics that the game might have as to why. Which I personally don't agree with.

You are right, if you start saying they have their own ethics, then you enter Admiral's Xen and even Tali's fathers way of thinking. So you Re-writing a Geth to be none Heretic is not gonna be the same as the Quarians making them loyal again? Where is the line?! So when a Geth asks an organic to decide, he is indeed placing his fate in our hands. What other morality will we judge them under except that of our own. If they want to be seen as a 'free' race they have to realise they will be held to the same measures as the other free races. IE Organics.

Personally I do not like how the game says blowing them up is Renegade. You only have two choices and the Heroic one is mass brainwash. It felt a little heavy handed to me.

Modifié par Madecologist, 18 février 2010 - 08:59 .

[Lareit]

Madecologist wrote...

Lareit wrote...

I typically take tali with me for that mission.
She's against rewrite. So is my shepard. It's a tie. He left the vote to me, which gives me additional power.

And yes brainwashing is wrong from an organic standpoint, the whole purpose of judging geth as more then just machines is why brainwashing them is equally wrong. If you want to start applying your own brand of synthetic morals, then admiral Darro'Xeen is right and putting them back under the yoke of the quarians isn't a bad thing to do.

I personally I agree with you. I am just listing the logics that the game might have as to why. Which I personally don't agree with.

You are right, if you start saying they have their own ethics, then you enter Admiral's Xen and even Tali's fathers way of thinking. So you Re-writing a Geth to be none Heretic is not gonna be the same as the Quarians making them loyal again? Where is the line?! So when a Geth asks an organic to decide, he is indeed placing his fate in our hands. What other morality will we judge them under except that of our own. If they want to be seen as a 'free' race they have to realise they will be held to the same measures as the other free races. IE Organics.

Personally I do not like how the game says blowing them up is Renegade. You only have two choices and the Heroic one is mass brainwash. It felt a little heavy handed to me.

I don't mind, I'll stand by my decision to blow them up. (Hell it gives them an honorable death too from a warriors perspective even) regardless the rating system or ME3 consequences.

[Madecologist]

Like I told my friend, it was a good ethical choice, but not one that fits properly in the ME "Blue/Red" Paradigm. Which I am not suprised, all the best ethical decisions never do fall on a binary moral scale, be it good or evil, aggressive or cooperative.

[Mercuriol]

Kordras wrote...

I thought so at first as well, but as far as I can tell what you're doing is counter-acting the Reaper virus that changed their behavior in the first place. Legion says that rewriting the Heretics will allow them to isolate themselves, and rethink their position on things.

This. Legion also says it might be possible they reach the same conclusions as before and still follow the reapers.

It just makes them think things over or something.

[Spyndel]

Lareit wrote...


When you brainwash someone you kill them. You then replace them with something else, that something else is not the same being it was before, and is now a mockery of what they once were. It is an injustice far greater then simply killing.

You would have to demonstrate that the Geth's existence after being modified would be somehow inferior to ceasing to exist at all...that they would somehow suffer in some pragmatic, measurable fashion to the point where obliterating them would be a kindness.

Subjective personal philosophies aside, I dont think you can do that. 

   Generally speaking, being given the opportunity to continiue a relatively "normal" ( not being held prisoner, tortured, enduring cripling, chronic pain, etc) is always going to be a superior option to ceasing to exsist. One way, there is at least the mathematical probablitity, no matter how small, they might even rediscover their "true" self.  They have a comparatively *high* probability of having a reasonably fufilling existence.  The other way, all probabilities are zero...life stops.

Now add in the factor that the renegade Geth are Dangerous to all other life in the galaxy, and re writing them *helps* all other life by potentially gaining allies againt the reapers, whereas  destorying them gains nothing.

ITs the lesser evil, but if those are truly the only options, the re write is the Paragon choice.

[Nightwriter]

You’re destroying them either way.



So it becomes a matter of making their deaths mean something or making them mean nothing.



Making them mean something is the paragon way to go.

[The Capital Gaultier]

Win/win situation. I picked rewrite. No regrets.

[Lareit]

Spyndel wrote...

Lareit wrote...


When you brainwash someone you kill them. You then replace them with something else, that something else is not the same being it was before, and is now a mockery of what they once were. It is an injustice far greater then simply killing.

You would have to demonstrate that the Geth's existence after being modified would be somehow inferior to ceasing to exist at all...that they would somehow suffer in some pragmatic, measurable fashion to the point where obliterating them would be a kindness.

Subjective personal philosophies aside, I dont think you can do that. 

   Generally speaking, being given the opportunity to continiue a relatively "normal" ( not being held prisoner, tortured, enduring cripling, chronic pain, etc) is always going to be a superior option to ceasing to exsist. One way, there is at least the mathematical probablitity, no matter how small, they might even rediscover their "true" self.  They have a comparatively *high* probability of having a reasonably fufilling existence.  The other way, all probabilities are zero...life stops.

Now add in the factor that the renegade Geth are Dangerous to all other life in the galaxy, and re writing them *helps* all other life by potentially gaining allies againt the reapers, whereas  destorying them gains nothing.

ITs the lesser evil, but if those are truly the only options, the re write is the Paragon choice.

There are potnetial dangerous consequences with the rewrite that makes it too risky in my opinion to simply bypass the moral obligations of killing them or brainwashing them.

1.Mindwiping them and reattaching them to the geth could have severe negative backlash to the True Geth.
2. They might decide to keep hating organic life anyway.
3. The True Geth might actually be hostile in a way different from the Heretics. Giving the true geth more forces would be bad.

Based on the limited information and the possible consequences destroying them is the safer option and the more morally acceptable option.

[Lareit]

justinnstuff wrote...

I felt it was undoing the reapers mess. I thought of it as, undoing what the reapers have done wrong.

Except the reapers didn't do that to the heretics. They choose that path themselves.

[Spyndel]

Lareit wrote...


Based on the limited information and the possible consequences destroying them is the safer option and the more morally acceptable option.

On the contrary, "Evil" options are often the safer and more pragmatic.  IT would be *safer* to execute every criminal in prison, rather than releasing them and risking them commiting further crimes.

Virtuous decisions often involve risk. Doing the "right" thing is seldom the same as doing the easy or safe thing.  We risk for our ideals.

[Lareit]

justinnstuff wrote...

Lareit wrote...

justinnstuff wrote...

I felt it was undoing the reapers mess. I thought of it as, undoing what the reapers have done wrong.

Except the reapers didn't do that to the heretics. They choose that path themselves.

Didn't legion mention a virus that infects their most basic runtimes? Something about a decimal based number like 1.38887 comes out as 1.38886 or something along those lines? I thought this was a reaper created virus. Correct me if I'm wrong.

the virus is what he's going to stop, the math analogy is to describe why the heretics believe differently from the true geth.

I actually could be wrong, legion with his geth ways of speaking doesn't actually flat out and say either way, but there is a great deal of evidence that isn't found that fails to support the indoctrination of the geth theory.

[Lareit]

Spyndel wrote...

Lareit wrote...


Based on the limited information and the possible consequences destroying them is the safer option and the more morally acceptable option.

On the contrary, "Evil" options are often the safer and more pragmatic.  IT would be *safer* to execute every criminal in prison, rather than releasing them and risking them commiting further crimes.

Virtuous decisions often involve risk. Doing the "right" thing is seldom the same as doing the easy or safe thing.  We risk for our ideals.

What part of your ideal allows you to mindcontroll an entire population for your own gain?

[magnuskn]

Yeah, either way you end up as kind of a mass-murderer, not really ideal. But tough choices seldomly are. All factors have been mentioned already, but íf I can choose to either murder a few million sentient beings or slightly change their worldview ( which is what re-writing was... you don't wipe our their personalities completely ), I'll go with the re-writing option.



And, yeah, trying to apply organic ethics 100% to machines is not the way to go, anyway. They are, self-admittedly, different from us. Until we have a time when some sort of group-conciousness is developed and applied, the philosophical implications of such an decision are very theoretical.

[Madecologist]

I do think, and I will soon see again. Legion says the Heretics were not "indoctuniated". They choose to ally with the Reapers. This was a scism in their culture, not a mass kidnapping.