143 réponses à ce sujet

[Spyndel]

Lareit wrote...

Spyndel wrote...

Lareit wrote...


Based on the limited information and the possible consequences destroying them is the safer option and the more morally acceptable option.

On the contrary, "Evil" options are often the safer and more pragmatic.  IT would be *safer* to execute every criminal in prison, rather than releasing them and risking them commiting further crimes.

Virtuous decisions often involve risk. Doing the "right" thing is seldom the same as doing the easy or safe thing.  We risk for our ideals.

What part of your ideal allows you to mindcontroll an entire population for your own gain?

Thats already been covered.  You can refer to my earlier posts, or any number of other peoples if you'd like to read the thread. (seriously, not being snarky, but I'd just be repeating myself).

Also, Mind control implies an ongoing supression of free will.  That is not the case here, your statement is inaccurate.

"Entire population" is also inaccurate, it is a faction of a larger population. 

Modifié par Spyndel, 18 février 2010 - 09:43 .

[FlintlockJazz]

Can I just ask where people got the idea that Sovereign indoctrinated the heretics from? My understanding is that they chose to align with Sovereign and left the geth to do so voluntarily, and that there isn't a fault with their logic it's just a different one (one person in the thread said that the heretics were coming up with 2+2=5, but that's not correct, what Legion says is that "Heretics say 1 is less than 2, Geth say 2 is less than 3" which means that both are right, they are just looking at it differently), but if I missed something I think I'll have to go back and take another look!

[Aradace]

Mars Nova wrote...

It bothered me that rewriting the geth heretics on Legion's loyalty mission was considered the Paragon option.  To me, if you do that, then you're no different then the heretics, or even the Reapers.  It's indoctrination, pure and simple.  It seems to me that it should have been the other way around, kill=paragon, brainwash=renegade.

You're looking at the scope wrong...You have two choices...Rewrite, or destroy.  Destroy, by default, is a "Renegade" action.  Where as if you rewrite them, they're still "alive" but return to their collective, hence the "Paragon" action.  You cant look at some of these "decisions" from a "moral" standpoint, but rather, you have to look at them from the "game engine" perspective.  Try to apply logic to a game like this and you will drive yourself mad.

[Beechwell]

I find this a very hard decision; partly because it is hard to understand how the geth experience death and reprogramming.

However, my current reasons to kill them rather to rewrite is this: The actions of Shepard in this case are likely to influence how the geth will deal with future internal strife. Now, while killing each other is certainly not a good way to go about it, I (perhaps foolishly) hope that war between geth will be costly enough for both sides to eventually consider other options (and maybe develop diplomacy). Routinely rewriting all geth with deviant ideas would mean eventually eradicating all individuality among geth to conform to a given - and possibly unchanging - standard. This I think would cripple the geth as a whole, and prevent them from being true individual persons.

[Wompoo]

Went with the rewrite option. Destroying the Heretics weakens the Geth overall. At present the galaxy needs strong allies if they are going to have any chance against the reapers. It is not about paragon or renegade it is about pure numbers and a unified galactic military... an impression I get, is, the Reapers have never had to face this (as they seem to opt for the divide and conquer approach) type of oposition before. Only concern is that the Heretics had been spying on the Geth, so did they see this coming or not? Strong Geth means Tal's people will not attack them, so both forces remain strong. Geth plus Rachni equals huge military boost... reasons why the Reapers targeted them to begin with imho.

Modifié par Wompoo, 18 février 2010 - 10:05 .

[Gill Kaiser]

As far as I'm concerned, since it was the heretics who were planning to unleash the virus on the True Geth, it's perfectly ethical for me to repurpose it and use it on them instead. Just like it was justice for Shepard to make the Batarian poisoner drink his own spiked beverage. You reap what you sow.

...and I'm a Paragon.

[Abirn]

Amethyst Deceiver wrote...

its a lose/lose situation.

An Army of legions is not a lose situation

[Aradace]

justinnstuff wrote...

Gill Kaiser wrote...

As far as I'm concerned, since it was the heretics who were planning to unleash the virus on the True Geth, it's perfectly ethical for me to repurpose it and use it on them instead. Just like it was justice for Shepard to make the Batarian poisoner drink his own spiked beverage. You reap what you sow.
...and I'm a Paragon.

This is the paragon way. You see, if you were renegade, you don't reap what you sow, you reap twice what renegade shep has in store for you. There's no balancing out, but more of a full blown revenge instead. 

And revenge is a dish best served cold...Or in that batarians case, best served as a spiked drink cha cha chaaaaa

[FlintlockJazz]

justinnstuff wrote...

Lareit wrote...

justinnstuff wrote...

Lareit wrote...

justinnstuff wrote...

I felt it was undoing the reapers mess. I thought of it as, undoing what the reapers have done wrong.

Except the reapers didn't do that to the heretics. They choose that path themselves.

Didn't legion mention a virus that infects their most basic runtimes? Something about a decimal based number like 1.38887 comes out as 1.38886 or something along those lines? I thought this was a reaper created virus. Correct me if I'm wrong.

the virus is what he's going to stop, the math analogy is to describe why the heretics believe differently from the true geth.

I actually could be wrong, legion with his geth ways of speaking doesn't actually flat out and say either way, but there is a great deal of evidence that isn't found that fails to support the indoctrination of the geth theory.

I get the general idea of what you're trying to say. I thought with that kind of "change" in their basic runtimes wouldn't be self inflicted. According to reaper indoctrination, you look up to the reaper as sort of a superior being, which fits the heretics worshiping the "old machines" as gods. Maybe they just believed that because the reapers were "the pinnacle of inorganic life". I want to talk to Legion some more and try to find out more about this.

The heretics were trying to create a virus to brainwash the other geth, they themselves did not have the virus otherwise they would not have needed to develop it to begin with, and so Legion wouldn't have had the time to investigate the virus.

[Beechwell]

justinnstuff wrote...

Gill Kaiser wrote...

As far as I'm concerned, since it was the heretics who were planning to unleash the virus on the True Geth, it's perfectly ethical for me to repurpose it and use it on them instead. Just like it was justice for Shepard to make the Batarian poisoner drink his own spiked beverage. You reap what you sow.
...and I'm a Paragon.

This is the paragon way. You see, if you were renegade, you don't reap what you sow, you reap twice what renegade shep has in store for you. There's no balancing out, but more of a full blown revenge instead. 

An eye for an eye is not really the paragon way.
Of course, in this decision there is no (obvious) paragon way at all.

[FlintlockJazz]

justinnstuff wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Can I just ask where people got the idea that Sovereign indoctrinated the heretics from? My understanding is that they chose to align with Sovereign and left the geth to do so voluntarily, and that there isn't a fault with their logic it's just a different one (one person in the thread said that the heretics were coming up with 2+2=5, but that's not correct, what Legion says is that "Heretics say 1 is less than 2, Geth say 2 is less than 3" which means that both are right, they are just looking at it differently), but if I missed something I think I'll have to go back and take another look!

I came to the conclusion that you did. I thought that the geth had been indoctrinated, but I questioned that after a few posts in this thread. Did they change their "minds" as to what an old machine was? Or did the old machines change their minds? There's definitely no right answer to this, knowing what we know.

There was no changing of minds, it was simply that some thought one way and the others thought another.  As shown by Legion's indecisiveness over whether to blow up or brainwash the heretics, his 'group' couldn't agree on what to do.  Likewise, the geth could not agree on whether to follow the Reapers or to make their own path, so they split into two factions.

[ThatDancingTurian]

I agree it feels like there's no 'Paragon' way in this situation. But I do think destroying them is more Paragon than rewriting, if only because that's sending a clear message to Legion's geth. An honorable death is more paragon than brainwashing your opponent.

[Valaky]

I followed my feeling. If I could turn the Rachni into my Allies in ME1, why not a very strong army of synthetics , who might be leaded by legion in ME3 to counter any hacking attempts from Reapers.

It does makes you think if you are doing like Saren: Rachni, possible cure for Genophage, Rewritting geths... only you're at the "good" side now. I expect ME3 to be able to become just like Saren or to be the total opposit.

[anmiro]

I think you need look at the big picture. The Geth are basically in a civil war. Two sides with apposing views. Both side are unwilling to compromise so ultimately one side has to win out. Now rewriting may sound like brainwashing and for humans brainwashing is bad, but the Geth are not human and their culture is vastly different from ours. So between the two options, killing them or rewriting them, the lesser of the two evils is obviously rewriting the Heretics.

You also need to remember that the rewrite isn't a lobotomy. 

Modifié par anmiro, 18 février 2010 - 10:31 .

[SupidSeep]

I can't advocate destroying them outright without attempting a less violent/destructive option. Though I agree "brainwashing" is definitely a 'bad' thing to do, it is the lesser of two evils.

Much like Mordin's assessment of the Korgan: limit their ability to do damage (at least til they 'mature' as a species) or kill them all.

@ Aris, destroying them to "send a message" is IMO a renegade response.

[Madecologist]

Gill Kaiser wrote...

As far as I'm concerned, since it was the heretics who were planning to unleash the virus on the True Geth, it's perfectly ethical for me to repurpose it and use it on them instead. Just like it was justice for Shepard to make the Batarian poisoner drink his own spiked beverage. You reap what you sow.
...and I'm a Paragon.

Well it this case you got Paragon for one of them and Renegade for the other. I did atleast appreciate that from this game. It seems even if you play a full Paragon or Renegade you will get a decent amount of points piling up in the other bar. I mean a Renegade might still hug a traumatised person, doesn't mean you don't care. While a Paragon might not want to endorse every store in the Citadel or take the first shot on some mercs.

[Jebel Krong]

destruction is preferable to the invalidation of their existence by rewriting, it's at least an honourable death worthy of a life-form (synthetic or not). Legion hints that this is the better choice anyway, as rewriting may alter their viewpoints about a lot more topics (right or wrong) causing more problems down the line.

[ThatDancingTurian]

SupidSeep wrote...

I can't advocate destroying them outright without attempting a less violent/destructive option. Though I agree "brainwashing" is definitely a 'bad' thing to do, it is the lesser of two evils.
Much like Mordin's assessment of the Korgan: limit their ability to do damage (at least til they 'mature' as a species) or kill them all.
@ Aris, destroying them to "send a message" is IMO a renegade response.

What I meant by 'sending a message' wasn't a warning or threat, more giving them an idea of what is acceptable.  The way I saw it, doing the rewrite is to tell the geth that organics are fine with brainwashing, that it's better to use someone as a pawn then let them die free. That is not the message my Shep wanted to send at all. You have to look at not only how this will affect the geth, but how it will affect how they react to other species.

[Asheer_Khan]

HELLO!!!!



Honorable death for Geth will be during combat, not when somebody pull the plug off without giving them chance to "issue a protest"and that's is blowing them up.



Beside if following Sovieregin was independent choice of the Geth then why only 5% entire population made that choice when 95% Geth decided NOT to follow old machine ?



I see two explanations.

1 Reaper virus whit very limited power of "influence".

2 Sovieregin was pretty weak example of a "leader" if he was able to "convince" such minority of the Geth.

Beside we can always manufacture for Geth something like this:

[MBirkhofer]

I thought this was a bit odd as well.



Death is favorable to brainwashing. A fate worse then death.

I expected destroying them to be the paragon action.





However, in hindsight. consider. If someone is sick, delusional, and you have the means to heal them. that would be the correct course of action right? You could look at it as brainwashing them again, or you could look at it as fixing a problem with them, and thus healing them.

[Slayer299]

Nope, wasn't a second thought for my Shep. Rewriting the Heretics removes a huge problem from the Galaxy as a whole.