143 réponses à ce sujet

[ian528]

It is worse then indoctrination but with a complete DNA chain it should be possible to "clone" the species. Taking that the Reapers are like most societies and that once they solve a problem they do not resolve the same problem it should also be possible using the DNA from the collector, ancient Protean DNA, and the Keepers to identify the markers that the Reapers have built into the species to control it.

[Loregothe]

Just to make things clear on my part. Lets remove the fact that they are machines.



A group of people, even humans, at war with my people. A group of middle men whom I have only the most basic reason to trust, explains these people are at war with us because they brainwashed. By introducing a virus I can potentially "reverse-brainwash" them. Or, I can kill them.



Logic dictates that 100% chance to end (or significantly shorten) the war is better than a "maybe" with the lost opportunity to kill them. Since brainwashing them is AT BEST a morally ambiguous choice, logic is again the clear choice.



If this was a remote commune of non-aggressive individuals then I would think "do nothing" would be the logical choice. But they are killing my people, and I would like them to stop. They won't negotiate, so therefore my alternative is victory. I kill them all with a clear conscience, because they would do the same if the tables were turned.



I don't see this as a difficult choice.

[smudboy]

You can either kill them, or change the way they think.



Murder or overwrite data?

[ATKT]

My initial reaction on my main Shep was to blow 'em up, because as you said, it is like manipulating and brainwashing an entire race.

Also, if it was this easy for Reapers to rewrite the Geth, that makes them a time bomb. Somebody with enough ability will eventually find a way to take control of a massive synthetic army. Tali's father seemed to be getting close, in fact.

There is also the issue of synthetics replacing organics in the universe. Legion has one of my favorite quotes in all sci-fi if you tell him that you plan to blow them up. He says something along the lines of "treating all sapient beings as if they are the same is basically racism."

The geth do not operate the way organic sentient beings do. Organic morality does not apply, in the same way human morality does not apply to an ant colony. Humans place weight on individual abilities and decision making. In ants, there is only one decision making process in the entire colony.

[Zem_]

Loregothe wrote...

Logic dictates that 100% chance to end (or significantly shorten) the war is better than a "maybe" with the lost opportunity to kill them. Since brainwashing them is AT BEST a morally ambiguous choice, logic is again the clear choice.

I'm still not understanding how people are citing morality at all when the choices are brainwashing or death.   Re-writing them all is morally questionable but killing them isn't?  You keep using the word "logic".  I'm not sure it means what you think it means.

[Louis deGuerre]

I just want to thank everyone (especially Baher of Glory) for posting. This thread has been in my mind all day to the detriment of my work. Am I nowhere to be free from me2 ? 
I'm coming up to making the decision again very soon on my 'perfect' playtrough and I find that I am slightly wavering from my position of deciding to blow them up as the most ethical choice.

First, for all those who still misunderstood the me2 story, the heretic Geth were NOT indoctrinated. They decided to worship Sovereign and embrace his life-destroying plan by choice.

Second, I don't want to meta-game and bet on a bigger Geth Army in me3 when rewriting as I simply hate metagaming in an RPG (or whatever category this game falls into).

I would not call my choice euthenasia, I see it more as dropping a nuke on the enemy capital in a wartime situation. A horrible thing to do, but less horrible than the alternative...by a slim margin, but even so.

I find it fascinating how many different views have been posted so far on this. I hope you all get as much pleasure out of this game as I am having

[Wynne]

KealaFerret wrote...

Kordras wrote...

I thought so at first as well, but as far as I can tell what you're doing is counter-acting the Reaper virus that changed their behavior in the first place. Legion says that rewriting the Heretics will allow them to isolate themselves, and rethink their position on things.

This is exactly how I looked at it. It's undoing the damage that the Reapers did and giving the Geth back their free will so to speak. The Geth have, much like the Protheans, been perverted by the Reapers.

This was my opinion as well, especially since the other Geth were slightly in favor of rewrite. Not only was it their decision, if only marginally, when you take into consideration the fact that it may well have been Reaper-related, AND the idea that even if it WAS their decision, a fitting punishment for a crime of brainwashing is to brainwash the person who attempted to commit the crime.

All those things taken into consideration, I concluded without hesitation that rewrite was not only the merciful solution, but also the smart and moral one.

Louis deGuerre wrote...

First, for all those who still misunderstood the me2 story, the heretic Geth were NOT indoctrinated. They decided to worship Sovereign and embrace his life-destroying plan by choice.

Bud, the problem with that idea is that it takes for granted that no geth could possibly have been fooled, tricked, or otherwise infected by the most sophisticated and ancient race in the entire galaxy. Even if it was just a form of manipulation of their programs, there's NO guarantee whatsoever that the Reapers did not somehow corrupt a portion of the geth, who then tried to spread their altered programming and failed. Obviously Legion does not think this is the case--but that doesn't mean he knows the whole story.

We're not "misunderstanding" the ME2 story--we simply have a different theory than you do.

Modifié par Wynne, 19 février 2010 - 11:08 .

[Louis deGuerre]

I agree our theories differ (Occam's razor for me) but I disagree with your idea of a fitting punishment.



You have to take into account your role in executing the punishment. Your're not just brainwashing them, but have become a brainwasher yourself. Would you torture a torturer ? I would kill him, but I would not torture him.

My vision of my paragon Shepard is one that can't take an action like that. Not that the alternative is a lot better,

[Zem_]

Louis deGuerre wrote...

You have to take into account your role in executing the punishment. Your're not just brainwashing them, but have become a brainwasher yourself. Would you torture a torturer ? I would kill him, but I would not torture him.

I agree.  I wouldn't torture them.  But what about brainwashing them?

[Rhuakah]

One thing that struck me during that mission is that surely the notion of reprogramming can't be that repulsive to the Geth, or else Legion's vote wouldn't be so close to 50/50. I don't think it should be viewed as 'brainwashing'... at least not in the same terms that we do.

Regardless, I would have preferred it to have been a 'left/right' option with no morality-point attribution. I think that would have made eveyone's choices more interesting, too... I wonder how many people were unsure and just defaulted to paragon/renegade instead of having to deal with it.

Either way, Morrigan will disapprove.

[Zem_]

Rhuakah wrote...

One thing that struck me during that mission is that surely the notion of reprogramming can't be that repulsive to the Geth, or else Legion's vote wouldn't be so close to 50/50. I don't think it should be viewed as 'brainwashing'... at least not in the same terms that we do.

You're still not getting it.  This isn't even about synthetic vs. organic.  Suppose it was a human condemned to die for crimes against humanity and the technology existed to perfectly wipe their memory and replace their former criminal identity with one that would not be a threat to society.  It's a big IF, of course, but assume for the sake of argument it is possible and the process causes no pain or suffering either mental or physical, which is essentially the choice we're asked to make for the geth except that I am asking you even to consider them human.

Why in this case is it any morally different to "brainwash" them as punishment for their crimes than it is to execute them?  No one has explained this.  Everyone seems to be taking it as self-evident that "brainwashing = bad" but I don't think anyone is really thinking about this.  If anyone is...please explain.

I agree with you that this shouldn't have been a renegade/paragon decision as given, but not because we're talking about synthetics. 

[Akrylik]

uhh, by rewriting the geth didn't he return them back to their original mindsets? how is that evil?

[Frotality]

they should have made the choices on the left and right so no one would know which was paragon, and then they shouldve both awarded equal ammounts of para/renegade points.


honestly, i still dont understand bioware's rationale behind the whole morality system. your just asking for threads like this when you make morally ambiguous choices then realize you have to label one bad and the other good; defeats the whole point of making it a hard choice; defeats the purpose of moral choice altogether really.

 the 2-sided morality system will prevent any morally difficult choice from ever being difficult, so why bioware chose to keep this of all the classic rpg elements they scrapped is beyond me; its the one thing that should be gone.

[kanodin]

Zem_ wrote...


You're still not getting it.  This isn't even about synthetic vs. organic.  Suppose it was a human condemned to die for crimes against humanity and the technology existed to perfectly wipe their memory and replace their former criminal identity with one that would not be a threat to society.  It's a big IF, of course, but assume for the sake of argument it is possible and the process causes no pain or suffering either mental or physical, which is essentially the choice we're asked to make for the geth except that I am asking you even to consider them human.

Why in this case is it any morally different to "brainwash" them as punishment for their crimes than it is to execute them?  No one has explained this.  Everyone seems to be taking it as self-evident that "brainwashing = bad" but I don't think anyone is really thinking about this.  If anyone is...please explain.

I agree with you that this shouldn't have been a renegade/paragon decision as given, but not because we're talking about synthetics. 

The question of brainwashing a criminal so they are no longer a criminal is the plot of the book/movie "A Clockwork Orange" and It's reasoning for it being unethical is that it removes free will and forces that person to behave as you want them to. Interestingly, At the end of the book/movie the brainwashed criminal tries to commit suicide rather then go on living brainwashed indicating that to him it was a fate worse then death.
 
Of course the author doesn't really know if being brainwashed would be so terrible, it might be quite pleasant, but this example should at least explain why so many, myself included, find being brainwashed a fate worse then death.

[The Angry One]

Akrylik wrote...

uhh, by rewriting the geth didn't he return them back to their original mindsets? how is that evil?

From Legion's followup dialog, it seems that all the rewrite did was show the Heretics the absurdity of worshipping Nazara.
They've been taken back into the Geth collective mind but allowed to isolate themselves and decide what they'll do from here. This goes with Legion's earlier statement "Geth believe all intelligent life must self-determinate." and shows it isn't brainwashing at all, it's providing lucidity. Which further proves that the Heretics were indoctrinated.

[kanodin]

I think the biggest problem many people have with this choice is that they see a paragon action and a good guy action as being one in the same. This is reasonable considering the majority of paragon actions are unquestionably good deeds and every karma meter before it was simply good or evil but the point of the renegade/paragon meter has never been a gauge of are you a good guy or bad guy but more do you follow rules or not, respect alien cultures or not, and whether you believe the ends justify the means or not. To a lesser extent it's also about taking risks on other cultures or not, with decisions like curing the Krogan or saving the Rachni being part of that spectrum of choice.



With all that in mind there are several valid paragon reasons for re-writing, the majority of geth programs inside legion voted to do so so doing it would be respecting their culture, you would be taking another risk with the possibility of an alien culture turning on you like the paragon choice with the Rachni since the Heretics might alter the True Geth in unfortunate ways, and you would avoid unnecessary deaths which is a big part of being a paragon,



So while it makes sense as a paragon choice, that doesn't by any means make it a morally right thing to do. If your playing as someone trying to do the right thing and you think blowing the base up is right, then do it take the renegade points and don't worry about it.

[babylonfreak]

Legion calls them Heretics. This suggests to me some form of cultish indoctrination (not the Indoctrination of organics we've seen so far.)



Let's take for example David Koresh and the Branch Davidian. You have a charismatic individual claiming to have a direct line to God. For the Geth, Sovereign has a direct line to God... he *is* a God. Like Koresh's followers, the Heretic Geths follow willingly because of this charisma, yet it is still a form of brainwashing and mind control.



When the FBI stormed their farm, what was their goal? To capture and detain the cultists, most likely they would have been sent into psychotherapy. The attempt went badly and in the end the Davidians all died. The amount of criticism the FBI received makes it obvious that destroying the farm, and killing the Davidians, was NOT the paragon way of doing things.



Legion states that even with the virus, the Heretic Geth would isolate themselves and think about it. It sounds more like therapy to undo psychological damage than brainwashing. In any case, maybe rewriting them is not *nice* but as long as there is life, there is hope. Killing is a very permanent solution that strikes me as a "quick fix, ends justify the means" outlook which I think is what Renegade choices are about.



For those worried that the Heretics will just spontaneously revert, Legion states it is a "non-zero probability." It's not a high statistical probability. It's not an even statistical probability. Non-zero sounds more like: "It's possible but unlikely, just above zero." If your broker states the odd of making money on so-and-so are "non-zero" I don't think you'll put money on that.



Rewriting is *not* a comfortable option, but then neither was storming the Branch Davidian complex to imprison and "brainwash" them through psychotherapy. The FBI never for a second had plans to simply drop a Daisy-cutter on the farm.

[Zem_]

kanodin wrote...

The question of brainwashing a criminal so they are no longer a criminal is the plot of the book/movie "A Clockwork Orange" and It's reasoning for it being unethical is that it removes free will and forces that person to behave as you want them to.

He wasn't brainwashed.  He was conditioned using a technique that could easily be classified as torture.That's not happening here.  Legion gives no indication the heretic geth will feel any pain whatsoever from either choice.  They will simply stop believing Sovereign was right.

Interestingly, At the end of the book/movie the brainwashed criminal tries to commit suicide rather then go on living brainwashed indicating that to him it was a fate worse then death.

Because every time he witnessed a violent act or felt like doing violence himself, he became ill.  He was completely aware of what had been done to him.  It wasn't that his mind had been changed to believe violence was wrong.  It was more like he was being held down against his will.  It caused him extreme physical and mental distress, which again is not going to happen here unless you just don't believe Legion is telling you the truth.

There are logical reasons not to allow the reprogramming of the heretics but mostly they have to do with believing it is too much of a risk or of wanting to weaken the geth because you don't trust that they will coexist peacefully with organics.  More or less the same reaosns you might have refused to allow the Rachni queen to live in ME1.

[kanodin]

I admit I had simplified "A Clockwork Orange" as fully explaining it would be inefficient and confusing. I also do not claim the situations are the same, it was merely a useful example of why brainwashing is considered appaling to many people not necessarily an argument against doing so.

Modifié par kanodin, 20 février 2010 - 04:57 .

[reepneep]

Zem_ wrote...

kanodin wrote...

The question of brainwashing a criminal so they are no longer a criminal is the plot of the book/movie "A Clockwork Orange" and It's reasoning for it being unethical is that it removes free will and forces that person to behave as you want them to.

He wasn't brainwashed.  He was conditioned using a technique that could easily be classified as torture.That's not happening here.  Legion gives no indication the heretic geth will feel any pain whatsoever from either choice.  They will simply stop believing Sovereign was right.

Interestingly, At the end of the book/movie the brainwashed criminal tries to commit suicide rather then go on living brainwashed indicating that to him it was a fate worse then death.

Because every time he witnessed a violent act or felt like doing violence himself, he became ill.  He was completely aware of what had been done to him.  It wasn't that his mind had been changed to believe violence was wrong.  It was more like he was being held down against his will.  It caused him extreme physical and mental distress, which again is not going to happen here unless you just don't believe Legion is telling you the truth.

There are logical reasons not to allow the reprogramming of the heretics but mostly they have to do with believing it is too much of a risk or of wanting to weaken the geth because you don't trust that they will coexist peacefully with organics.  More or less the same reaosns you might have refused to allow the Rachni queen to live in ME1.

The mechanisms of causing the changes are different because the creatures being victimized are different.  The nature of the act, however, remains the same.  You are forcing them, against their will, to think and act as you want them to.  You are removing their free will, stealing their right of self determination.  You are making them slaves.

Paragon is supposed to be taking the high road, doing the right thing
even if it presents a more dificult, perhaps even hopeless path. 
Renegade is about winning at all costs, principals be damned.  ME2's choice is between violation of the mind (game says paragon) and desruction of the body (game says renegade).    I don't know about you, but I think the game designers got the choices backwards in this case.

[Satanic Hamster]

reepneep wrote...


Paragon is supposed to be taking the high road, doing the right thing
even if it presents a more dificult, perhaps even hopeless path. 
Renegade is about winning at all costs, principals be damned.  ME2's choice is between violation of the mind (game says paragon) and desruction of the body (game says renegade).    I don't know about you, but I think the game designers got the choices backwards in this case.

Hmmmm.  Hell, wonder if it's bugged?  I generally go lawfull good/paragon/good guy in all games and I still can't figure out how rewriting them and hoping for the best is considered the paragon choice.

__________________

Currently listening to Bell X1's Blue Lights on the Runway

[Basher of Glory]

babylonfreak wrote...

Legion calls them Heretics. This suggests to me some form of cultish indoctrination (not the Indoctrination of organics we've seen so far.)

Let's take for example David Koresh and the Branch Davidian. You have a charismatic individual claiming to have a direct line to God. For the Geth, Sovereign has a direct line to God... he *is* a God. Like Koresh's followers, the Heretic Geths follow willingly because of this charisma, yet it is still a form of brainwashing and mind control.

When the FBI stormed their farm, what was their goal? To capture and detain the cultists, most likely they would have been sent into psychotherapy. The attempt went badly and in the end the Davidians all died. The amount of criticism the FBI received makes it obvious that destroying the farm, and killing the Davidians, was NOT the paragon way of doing things.

Legion states that even with the virus, the Heretic Geth would isolate themselves and think about it. It sounds more like therapy to undo psychological damage than brainwashing. In any case, maybe rewriting them is not *nice* but as long as there is life, there is hope. Killing is a very permanent solution that strikes me as a "quick fix, ends justify the means" outlook which I think is what Renegade choices are about.

For those worried that the Heretics will just spontaneously revert, Legion states it is a "non-zero probability." It's not a high statistical probability. It's not an even statistical probability. Non-zero sounds more like: "It's possible but unlikely, just above zero." If your broker states the odd of making money on so-and-so are "non-zero" I don't think you'll put money on that.

Rewriting is *not* a comfortable option, but then neither was storming the Branch Davidian complex to imprison and "brainwash" them through psychotherapy. The FBI never for a second had plans to simply drop a Daisy-cutter on the farm.

This!

I think, when the term "brainwashed" came up, it distorted the entire discussion.

Let's look, what we know:

1) The Geth developed early some kind of mysticism. Evidence found in ME 1 mission against the Thorian, there was kind of a shrine in the ExoGeni-building

2) Sovereign neither brainwahed nor "rewrote" a part of the Geth. He took advantge of his new mysticism and seduced some of the Geth (heretics) to believe, he is their god.

3) The 5% of the Geth, who are from now on called "Heretics" followed him out of a free will descision, tolerated by the other 95% of the Geth.

4) Saren was introduced by Sovereign to be the "prophet" and his representative. The Heretics accepted this.

Until now their is no brainwashing or rewriting. It is exactly the same as we can see every day on our earth, when false prophets lure normal people into misbelieves. Under the permanent influence these people turn away from their former existence and become fanatics / zealots / whatever. Now we could speak of "gradually brainwash" and / or "indoctrination".

Let's now assume, that the FBI in the quoted example above would not have failed. Let's say, they catched all these mislead people alive.

Now I ask you: What should they have done with that bunch of fanatics?
a) Execute them on the spot
Give them medical / psychological treatment?

[Canned Bullets]

I went with the rewrite heretics and blow up collecter base because it would probably ****** off TIM and some others in ME3.

[The_mango55]

People need to stop freaking out over every little red point they get. And also to realize that except for certain situations (like Morinth) Renegade is not "Evil"



If you feel like destroying them was the best choice, you're right.



If you feel like rewriting them was the best choice, you're also right.



Neither of these choices is evil, and neither is perfect.

[reepneep]

Baher of Glory wrote...

babylonfreak wrote...

Legion calls them Heretics. This suggests to me some form of cultish indoctrination (not the Indoctrination of organics we've seen so far.)

Let's take for example David Koresh and the Branch Davidian. You have a charismatic individual claiming to have a direct line to God. For the Geth, Sovereign has a direct line to God... he *is* a God. Like Koresh's followers, the Heretic Geths follow willingly because of this charisma, yet it is still a form of brainwashing and mind control.

When the FBI stormed their farm, what was their goal? To capture and detain the cultists, most likely they would have been sent into psychotherapy. The attempt went badly and in the end the Davidians all died. The amount of criticism the FBI received makes it obvious that destroying the farm, and killing the Davidians, was NOT the paragon way of doing things.

Legion states that even with the virus, the Heretic Geth would isolate themselves and think about it. It sounds more like therapy to undo psychological damage than brainwashing. In any case, maybe rewriting them is not *nice* but as long as there is life, there is hope. Killing is a very permanent solution that strikes me as a "quick fix, ends justify the means" outlook which I think is what Renegade choices are about.

For those worried that the Heretics will just spontaneously revert, Legion states it is a "non-zero probability." It's not a high statistical probability. It's not an even statistical probability. Non-zero sounds more like: "It's possible but unlikely, just above zero." If your broker states the odd of making money on so-and-so are "non-zero" I don't think you'll put money on that.

Rewriting is *not* a comfortable option, but then neither was storming the Branch Davidian complex to imprison and "brainwash" them through psychotherapy. The FBI never for a second had plans to simply drop a Daisy-cutter on the farm.

This!

I think, when the term "brainwashed" came up, it distorted the entire discussion.

Let's look, what we know:

1) The Geth developed early some kind of mysticism. Evidence found in ME 1 mission against the Thorian, there was kind of a shrine in the ExoGeni-building

2) Sovereign neither brainwahed nor "rewrote" a part of the Geth. He took advantge of his new mysticism and seduced some of the Geth (heretics) to believe, he is their god.

3) The 5% of the Geth, who are from now on called "Heretics" followed him out of a free will descision, tolerated by the other 95% of the Geth.

4) Saren was introduced by Sovereign to be the "prophet" and his representative. The Heretics accepted this.

Until now their is no brainwashing or rewriting. It is exactly the same as we can see every day on our earth, when false prophets lure normal people into misbelieves. Under the permanent influence these people turn away from their former existence and become fanatics / zealots / whatever. Now we could speak of "gradually brainwash" and / or "indoctrination".

Let's now assume, that the FBI in the quoted example above would not have failed. Let's say, they catched all these mislead people alive.

Now I ask you: What should they have done with that bunch of fanatics?
a) Execute them on the spot
Give them medical / psychological treatment?

c) Let them chill in Waco with their savior because they weren't really bothering anyone?

Really bad analogy.  The situations aren't really comparable because one set of subjects is baking bread and singing kumbaya while the other is conspiring with a timeless evil to exterminate all sentient life.  A is applicable to the later, not the former while B does not accurately represent what happens in game. 

Being forced to talk to a shrink may not be voluntary, but listening to what he has to say is.  You don't have to cooperate.  You can stay as you are, if you so choose, and live with the consequences.  The destruction of your personality, the userpation of your free will, the theft of your very soul is, in my mind, one of those things that fall in the the category of 'fates worse than death'.