101 réponses à ce sujet

[Madecologist]

Spyndel wrote...

3) You'd basically be destroying Omega too, or at least stranding its inhabitants. Likely an issue for paragon Shep, and good luck convincing them to evacuate.

How? the Omega-4 Relay is a second Relay in the system. Unless you mean blow up everything in the system. The normal Relay they use is still there.

[didymos1120]

OK, so Collectors know how to mess with mass relays, right?  Right. Now, get rid of Omega-4.   Well, guess what? The one on the other side is still there.  Unless you catch all the Collectors at home, they'd just hijack some other relay, point it at the one in the galactic core and you'd be back to square one.  And possibly even if you caught them all at home.  The Reapers could easily have some other proxies tucked away that could re-establish the link.


BTW, this could be a potential strategy for the Reapers at this point.  We know they can't arrive en masse since the Citadel is stuck in the off position.  However, they might be able to re-orient a "small" but currently unknown-to-non-Reapers one and use it to ferry in a few at a time in secret.  Like I said, I can easily imagine that they have other agents/tools besides the Collectors who could do the intitial setup work needed to get the first Reaper or two out of Dark Space.  Once a healthy number was built up, they could go around and add to their 'private' network, or quietly insert the means to subvert the currently used relays on some pre-arranged signal or somesuch. It'd make a pretty good prelude to a divide-and-conquer approach.

Modifié par didymos1120, 18 février 2010 - 08:59 .

[Arijharn]

What makes you think they can re-orient Mass Relay's? I thought it was accepted (and stated) that Mass Relay's only point 1-1, but there are minor mass relay's that allowed for omni-directional travel

[didymos1120]

Ok, as far as this 'indestructible' business goes: we have no reason to believe that's the case.  No, not even when taking the Mu Relay into account.  All we do know about that is that a supernova knocked it out of its previous position.  This is not even remotely the same thing as 'survived the full force of a supernova explosion'.  Given how powerful they can be, it's entirely possible the Mu Relay was quite some distance away, yet still close enough to snag enough momentum to go haring off to parts unknown.  Plus, recall that a point was made in ME1 of saying that it wasn't damaged, just relocated.  Not 'couldn't be damaged'.  Wasn't.  Implication being, it could have been. 

[Madecologist]

Arijharn wrote...

What makes you think they can re-orient Mass Relay's? I thought it was accepted (and stated) that Mass Relay's only point 1-1, but there are minor mass relay's that allowed for omni-directional travel

Good point. But problem, Collectors are the chew toys of another race. Reapers. Who knows what their knowledge of the Mass Relay is, they claim they built it. So Harbinger can direct the Collectors to do something. Actually if I recal' Citadel had the ability to actually shut down the network. Like suddenly BAM.. no Mass Relays worked anymore. That is why the Reapers also used it as their entry point for the normal cyclic plan.

Again I will state, I think the reason you don't blow it up is because the Illusive Man wants you to go in there, He wants you to go there. Why? Simple, his last minute plan to sieze it was not so last minute. If you haven't noticed Shepard sort of follows the Cerberus agenda for the most part. You only choose to disobey and go your own way at the end. So TIM pushes you to find a way through and kill them, and claim the base for himself. It is what he wanted all along.

[didymos1120]

Arijharn wrote...

What makes you think they can re-orient Mass Relay's? I thought it was accepted (and stated) that Mass Relay's only point 1-1, but there are minor mass relay's that allowed for omni-directional travel

Because, both ends of a connection don't spring into existence simultaneously.  You build one, then build another.  Or even if, say, two groups are working simultaneously on each end of a new major relay route, there's just no way every single time they manage to activate them simulataneously.  Or that they don't have to be aligned and tested, etc. before being cleared for use. And there's no reason to believe that once you connect two major relays that you can never alter that.  At best we can say that you can only connect to one other major relay at a time. Plus, you know, the Reapers made them.  They must know some tricks others don't.  Even the Protheans, the only other race to make a relay we know of, didn't completely understand them.

[Spyndel]

Madecologist wrote...

Spyndel wrote...

3) You'd basically be destroying Omega too, or at least stranding its inhabitants. Likely an issue for paragon Shep, and good luck convincing them to evacuate.

How? the Omega-4 Relay is a second Relay in the system. Unless you mean blow up everything in the system. The normal Relay they use is still there.

Sorry, you're right, brain-fart.  I just had this subconcious mental image in my mind of the Omega relay being parked right next to the station, even though that distace is probably subtantial in actual measure.

I cahnge my number 3 answer to "Because it's all red and glowy".

[Madecologist]

didymos1120 wrote...

Ok, as far as this 'indestructible' business goes: we have no reason to believe that's the case.  No, not even when taking the Mu Relay into account.  All we do know about that is that a supernova knocked it out of its previous position.  This is not even remotely the same thing as 'survived the full force of a supernova explosion'.  Given how powerful they can be, it's entirely possible the Mu Relay was quite some distance away, yet still close enough to snag enough momentum to go haring off to parts unknown.  Plus, recall that a point was made in ME1 of saying that it wasn't damaged, just relocated.  Not 'couldn't be damaged'.  Wasn't.  Implication being, it could have been. 

The game still lists they are hard cookies and no one as of yet tried to. Maybe it can be damaged, but it was't. That kind of still shows you how tough it is. A Super Nova strong enough knock it several light years of course and envelope in a cloud of energised gas really does rank up there in firepower. Not like it was gently pushed out of Orbit and yet it remained completely intact. Now that is build tough.

Here the question, let us assume you can destroy it with the current tech the galaxy has, you gonna need a lot of firepower to do it (not even argueing if you can or not, just the firepower you need). A Tank can be destroyed, but armed with my fists I am not gonna go anywhere fast. Same analogy. Where are you gonna get that Firepower? The Council isn't helping, heck they don't want to start a war with the Terminus system by moving a Fleet in there. System Alliance is part of the Council. The Terminus System themselves see the Collectors are clients, they trade tech for specimens, so they won't help.

So unless Cerberus has a huge fleet we don't know about, how will you. Even if they did, will the TIM commit it and thus reveal its presence to the Galaxy to destroy it. Or send Shepard in. Hmmmmm...... If a Relay is destructable, you really think it is as easy as sticking a little bomb on it? If it was I am sure Batarian terrorists would have done that to Earth's relay a long time ago.

[didymos1120]

Madecologist wrote...
 Actually if I recal' Citadel had the ability to actually shut down the network. Like suddenly BAM.. no Mass Relays worked anymore.

Yeah, it did.  That's why the 5th Fleet was just sitting there.  Also, that's why comms went dead: long-range communication relied on the relays too.  Incidentally, that's how Joker was able to guess Shepard might have gotten onto the Citadel: suddenly, the local relay was responsive again and they started getting transmissions from the Citadel (and everywhere else not within a few light years) again.

Modifié par didymos1120, 18 février 2010 - 09:25 .

[kaotician]

The relay surviving a supernova is fair enough, I mean how close was it anyway? I've survived supernovas.

[didymos1120]

Madecologist wrote...
The game still lists they are hard cookies and no one as of yet tried to. Maybe it can be damaged, but it was't. That kind of still shows you how tough it is. A Super Nova strong enough knock it several light years of course and envelope in a cloud of energised gas really does rank up there in firepower. Not like it was gently pushed out of Orbit and yet it remained completely intact. Now that is build tough.

Oh, no doubt they'd be damn hard to break, but nothing really is unbreakable.  Also, we don't know how quickly the Mu Relay was traveling.  It need not have been moving all that fast.  I mean, we don't even know how far it actually went.  Just that between its change in momentum and the general 'shock and awe' of the supernova, they lost track of it and weren't able to figure out which way it went.  Orbital and Stellar mechanics can be absurdly complicated and the problems extremely hard to solve, and that's without throwing an exploding star messing with orbits in any number of nearby star systems into the mix. And it was lost 4,000 years ago, and found by the Rachni roughly 2,000 years ago.  That's a decent amount of travel time, especially when you don't know where it was headed.  Shorter version: it could have been going (relatively) slow and have still been lost rather easily and very impractical to track down.

That said: no, I don't actually think destroying one would be easy, and most likely not even feasible for Cerberus.  It's just another reason, amongst many other good ones, as to why it makes sense that they didn't just take the 'blow up relay'' approach to the Collector problem.

Modifié par didymos1120, 18 février 2010 - 10:00 .

[Abirn]

ILALQ wrote...

Has a relay ever even been destroyed? For all we know, they could be made out of some extremely durable material. That and destroying a relay, even the Omega 4, would really ****** the Council off, and bring Cerberus into the middle of things. Something TiM doesn't seem to exactly want.

That, and there'd be no game otherwise.

Ah yes the Omega 4 'relay'.  We've dismissed your claims of its existance.

[Finnegone]

Because then BW would have to rename the series Ass Out Effect

[Aradace]

Or if BW made a porn version of the game (a small laugh in and of itself I know) it would be called "Ass Effect" lol

[Jebel Krong]

Madecologist wrote...

First, I think they are nigh indestructable. Remember the Mu Relay survived a supernova. Sure it was a nearby star (not its own star) that went boom and knocked it out of its course. But still.

Secondly, did you finish the game? TIM did not want to "just stop" the Collectors, he did not want to destroy the Collectors, heck he probably did not even want to know or find out why they are doing it (which would be a reason as to why to go there). He wanted to take control of it. I don't buy the whole he was not sure what was there and that was a last minute update on his part. I think the punk knew and was planning this from the start. He wanted that Collector base all along.

eh? i don't think you understood the last part of the game. upon successfully entering the station and killing the nascent reaper, you do "stop" the collectors - that's exactly what TIM wanted. the ability to salvage the station and advanced technology within was just a bonus (whether TIM would then misuse it is another matter). nobody knew what was on the other side, because nobody else had gone through the relay and survived.

[didymos1120]

Jebel Krong wrote...
eh? i don't think you understood the last part of the game. upon successfully entering the station and killing the nascent reaper, you do "stop" the collectors - that's exactly what TIM wanted. the ability to salvage the station and advanced technology within was just a bonus (whether TIM would then misuse it is another matter). nobody knew what was on the other side, because nobody else had gone through the relay and survived.

TIM is certainly a smart enough guy to figure out well in advance that the Collectors had some cool toys stashed somewhere on the other side of that relay and have an eye on getting a hold of it.  I mean, they had to park that ship somewhere, no?  Much less, say, build the thing in the first place?  He didn't need to know the details of their infrastructure in order to want to get his hands on it.  The Reaper connection, once confirmed, just made him want it that much more.

[Madecologist]

Jebel Krong wrote...

eh? i don't think you understood the last part of the game. upon successfully entering the station and killing the nascent reaper, you do "stop" the collectors - that's exactly what TIM wanted. the ability to salvage the station and advanced technology within was just a bonus (whether TIM would then misuse it is another matter). nobody knew what was on the other side, because nobody else had gone through the relay and survived.

I understood the last part of the game. What I was saying, like I pointed out is how much did TIM know, Keep in mind what he knows and what he tells you are two separate things. He wanted Shepard to go fo there, in person. Which means he must have had an agenda for that. Really if the Collectors had a full planet with a population of 3 Billion and a full space fleet, how the heck was Shepard suppose to stop that.

Not that I am paranoid about the TIM, but you can't tell what he knows or not, or what his real plans were or not. He is gonna feed you bull if it suits his purpose. He actually does so many times in the game, he tends to have an excuse why he did it when confronted.

He did want you to stop them, it was that he did not want you to "just stop them". He wanted more. I think comparing it to a bonus is a little underrating it. Did you watch the ending if you blow it up? He is pissed, like insanely pissed. He orders Miranda to betray you and at the last dialogue he actually stands up and mouths you off. This comes off way more than a "drat,, would have been cool". Heck you even get an undertone that he considers the mission a failure almost for destroying the base. This sure does seem more like a "oh! Last minute bonus" displeasure.

[Icinix]

Theory 1 - Whenever someone attacks the station, Collector ship jumps in, tears the assailants a new hole and jumps out before someone has a chance to retaliate.

Theory 2 - Collapse of a Mass Relay leads to massive black hole causing extensive time dilation for surrounding systems and dooming everyone for thousands of light years.

Theory 3 - All Mass Relays are inter connected and bringing one down brings them all down. No one knows for certain, but no one wants to be the knob who had to find out.

[Muffildy]

Ok, so you might not be able to destroy one....but you can move them.

So why not just move one so that it points all exiting ships to emerge inside a sun? Or if you cant move it that way, you could build or move an asteroid field to increase the likelyhood that anything coming through would collide with some rocks.

[Madecologist]

Muffildy wrote...

Ok, so you might not be able to destroy one....but you can move them.
So why not just move one so that it points all exiting ships to emerge inside a sun? Or if you cant move it that way, you could build or move an asteroid field to increase the likelyhood that anything coming through would collide with some rocks.

Remember what the Reaper IFF does? I don't think it is just for jumping into the Galactic Core. I think it makes the Mass Effect Relays operate "properly". (Heh.. here's a thought, all the current civs use crappy codes, and effectively not use the network to its true capacity). Makes sense, the relays are made by you know who and they would want us to stumble about with it. So a Reaper IFF could probably jump in and still be safe because the Relay will direct you to a safe spot. Be it black holes, suns, what not.

Also, you think they will let you do that. I do not speak about a Collector ship showing up and smacking you. But the Terminus races. The Collectors were a good thing for them. The minute Shepard starts messing with the Relay, I can see the Terminus system getting up in arms to stop it. Heck even the Council races did not see them as a threat (even humans in general because we had no clue). The Collector threat was only seen by Shepard and Cerberus. We know what TIM really wanted. People did honetly believe the human colonies were vanishing from slaver or hostile race attacks.

[Ulicus]

didymos1120 wrote...

Ok, as far as this 'indestructible' business goes: we have no reason to believe that's the case.  No, not even when taking the Mu Relay into account.  All we do know about that is that a supernova knocked it out of its previous position.  This is not even remotely the same thing as 'survived the full force of a supernova explosion'.  Given how powerful they can be, it's entirely possible the Mu Relay was quite some distance away, yet still close enough to snag enough momentum to go haring off to parts unknown.  Plus, recall that a point was made in ME1 of saying that it wasn't damaged, just relocated.  Not 'couldn't be damaged'.  Wasn't.  Implication being, it could have been. 

I think the fact that they don't just destroy the Omega-4 relay is reason enough to believe that the Mass Relays are "nigh" indestructible. The most you can say is that ME1 implies that the Mu Relay could have been damaged by a supernova -- and that itself depends on particular (perfectly valid) interpretation of the dialog.

In short, I don't think the "why didn't we just destroy the Omega-4 Relay?" is an issue getting worked up about.

Though, reading further along, you don't seem to think it's an issue either... so I'm not sure why you brought the above up at all.

Still, it would have probably helped if we'd had a throwaway line like: 

"We tried to take the relay out of action, but all attempts have failed"

[marshalleck]

Muffildy wrote...

Ok, so you might not be able to destroy one....but you can move them.
So why not just move one so that it points all exiting ships to emerge inside a sun? Or if you cant move it that way, you could build or move an asteroid field to increase the likelyhood that anything coming through would collide with some rocks.

Relays have basic safety protocols. Ships exiting them are put into a safe zone where they won't collide with space debris or other ships. This 'drift' can vary wildly, from a hundred to a million km away from where you expected to end up. Remember the very first conversation of the first game where Joker says "drift...just under 1500k" and Nihlus is impressed? You can discern this by reading the Codex entries on military strategy and trans-relay assault.

The Omega 4 relays didn't have this safety protocol, or required more precision--hence the Reaper IFF. Every ship without it was destroyed in the accretion disc of a black hole.

As for moving a relay, considering they are many times larger than the largest vessels created by contemporary species, I think moving one would be a huge undertaking with many risks involved with placing it so close to a star that it's internal drift mechanisms would be overwhelmed. Once you start moving it, you have to be able to eventually reduce its inertia. Any 'tugs" attempting to do that would be incinerated by solar radiation long before you could get the relay itself where you want it to be.

Modifié par marshalleck, 18 février 2010 - 11:47 .

[adam_grif]

Better question is why didn't Cerberus just blockade the O4 Relay with a couple of frigates. The guns on the SR2 can kill a collector ship even without any upgrades.



Heck, they could just put some cruiser sized guns without any "ship" to go along with it in orbit around the O4 relay, and the collectors would have been wasted as soon as they dropped into the system.

[The-OC]

very little is known about the mass effect relays and how they work so i doubt it's as simple as firing some cannons at it. Not to mention that the mass effect relays house a huge ever going never ceasing reaction between element zero and huge amounts of electrisity. It could cause a massive explosion that could annialite all life in the terminus systems. A simplier answer is that the reapers require it to stay functioning and could have booby traped it to stop ny attempts to cease it's opperation. 

[Arijharn]

adam_grif wrote...

Better question is why didn't Cerberus just blockade the O4 Relay with a couple of frigates. The guns on the SR2 can kill a collector ship even without any upgrades.

Because Cerberus is supposed to be a covert organisation remember? It isn't supposed to exist at the best of times, it's just one of those 'open secrets.'