185 réponses à ce sujet

[Urazz]

Yeah, that review was crap for the most part. It had one or two good points of criticism in it but otherwise, completely offbase.

[Lyrandori]

Ringo12 wrote...

I agree completely with the Collector Base part. Why the hell am I not allowed to let the Systems Alliance or The Council know about the base?

Vigil's VI no longer works I think a Collector Base is pretty damning evidence that the Reapers are a real threat.

But then again the Council would air-quote saying: «Ah yes, the "Collector Base", we've already dismissed that».

[Doug84]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

When you plan ahead for a trilogy, then everything can be made to fit, and the three games together can end up greater than the sum of their parts. So many games are written as if each game will be the last, and knowing you have three games to tell your story is a rare and unique opportunity.
BioWare took this opportunity, and pissed it away with Mass Effect 2.

Right there.

Sorry, but thats crap. If Mass Effect 2 tanked, there is no way they'd make ME 3. Its worth baring in mind the publishers/owners can, at any point, decide that its not worth the money to continue. I saw far too many games back in the old times act like there was going to be a sequel, and then never make one because they'd run out of money or the game didn't sell well, or the company was taken over by a other company with different ideas.

Basically, no, there is never, ever a sure thing when it comes to trilogies being finished. I would severely doubt Bioware was at a big risk of this happening, but you never know.

[Saberdark]

Ringo12 wrote...

I agree completely with the Collector Base part. Why the hell am I not allowed to let the Systems Alliance or The Council know about the base?

Vigil's VI no longer works I think a Collector Base is pretty damning evidence that the Reapers are a real threat.

Who says you can't let them know about the base? You haven't had a chance to do so yet. However, just because they know about it doesn't mean they will believe you about the Reapers, nor about the true purpose of the base.  I mean, they had an actual reaper blow up on the Citadel and didn't believe you. In this situation they can simply say the Collector's were acting on their own and be done with it. Far more believable than your mad obsession with nonexistent machines from their point of view.

And it still means that Cerberus will get their hands on the base because both the council and alliance are already stretched thin and likely won't risk sending a force to a base they can't even get to because only Cerberus has the Reaper IFF technology. Cerberus will already be at the base if you keep it, in one of the endings they have ships show up to take control of the base almost immediatly after you're done with it. You're not giving the base to Cerberus willingly, you are in a situation where the choice is allow Cerberus to get the base (whether or not you want them to have it) or destroy it. There really is no middle ground on this decision.

Modifié par Saberdark, 18 février 2010 - 03:40 .

[smudboy]

Chrisimo79 wrote...

smudboy wrote...

I'd like to actually get a list of points from people who disagree with Shamus. Seems he's on the money.

I'll start with one of his first points:

Cerberus in the first game was unambiguously evil and ruthless and it
was never demonstrated that they had any goals besides the acquisition
of power.

There is still no indication whatsoever that Cerberus wants anything other than power. The people that work for Cerberus sure all have their own reasons but that is to be expected. TIM wants power and he does eveything neccessary to achieve it. If he needs to do 'good' things, he will do good things - if he needs to do evil things, he will do evil things. Simple as that.

So Shamus believes Cerberus is evil and ruthless and wants power, and you agree.  This can be summed up with "ends justify the means".  Essentially, you agree.  In ME2 we learn that Cerberus cares only for results, via cell projects, whether these things are seen as good or bad.

(They claimed to be pro-human, but they arguably killed more humans than the bad guys. Never once were we shown how Cerberus was helping humans.)

Really? He complains that they didn't show Cerberus helping people until ME2 and that's why he things Cerberus was retconned? Maybe the reason we didn't encounter Cerberus doing any good at that time was because, uhm, we wouldn't have to fight them then.
Really, I mean, even Hitler probably has done something good here and there.

"Arguably killed."  Cerberus was evil in ME1.

But we were fighting them in ME1.  In ME2 we're completely pro-Cerberus, even if we comment otherwise.

So you're comparing the Third Reich to Cerberus?  I don't see your point.  Again, you're not disagreeing with Shamus.

They could have connected the dots and shown how Cerberus weren’t as bad as they seemed.

And why is Cerberus suddenly not as bad? Because they don't always kill people or experiment on them? Because some people who work for Cerberus are idealistic? Really? You will find at least a little good thing in any human/organisation/etc. That doesn't change what they are. Of course for people who believe that evil people also kick dogs, rape their sisters and do only bad things without a single good thing inbetween this may be too much thought.

He's referring to in ME1, how we could've seen the other side of Cerberus.  Instead, we're thrust into the world of Cerberus in ME2, without a mention from TIM of what happened in ME1, including the potnetial Shepard backstory.  That there was no build up.  (I think there's a bit of exposition with Miranda about their experiments and Jack.)

Again I'm not clear on what you're trying to say here.

If they had planned on having us work for Cerberus in part two,
they could have set things up for us in part one so this felt like a
twist and not a rewrite

I agree that they could have made it better, I disagree that it feels like a rewrite.

How isn't it?  Shepard (he) dies and is resurrected, and is now working for Cerberus.  He doesn't have to, but he isn't given the option to stop.  No reasonable lead in.  Pure deus ex machina.  The equivalent of sensationalism in movies.  Shepard just continues on pushing the plot along, with a Cerberus ship (that's nearly identical to the old ship, with some of the same crew.)  That "overaching scheme" he referred to could have easily been in place of the start of ME2, and would've been way more believable than a Cybernetic Jesus.  Ditto with Chakwas and Joker.

He's with Cerberus because no one will help him, and no one will help him because he's with Cerberus.  I don't know too many resurrection stories, but being the savior of the universe and cheating death after 2 years would tend to have a little more weight than who you're factioned with.

This is what makes ME2 feel like some fan-faction got the reigns.

Modifié par smudboy, 18 février 2010 - 03:38 .

[Makkufish]

Don't deny most things brought up in that article, but I enjoyed the game anyway.

Fully agree with him about the Reaper contradiction, Cerberus' 180-flip, the silly final boss and the Collector Base choice.

Modifié par Makkufish, 18 février 2010 - 03:46 .

[Doug84]

Ringo12 wrote...

I agree completely with the Collector Base part. Why the hell am I not allowed to let the Systems Alliance or The Council know about the base?

Vigil's VI no longer works I think a Collector Base is pretty damning evidence that the Reapers are a real threat.

Because the Systems Alliance or the Council or both would have to go to war with the Terminus systems if they wanted to gain access to the relay to the collector base.

And thats if they believed you enough to risk a prolonged war. A prolonged war that would leave everyone unable to resist the reapers.

[glacier1701]

Dont like the style used but a lot of his points do have validity. The only thing I can see is that he missed the biggest plot hole of the lot. Basically if we have collectors what was there to stop them and Sovereign 2000 years  ago getting together and taking over the Citadel? After at that time no-one would know anything about them. All they would need to do is send messages saying they are new species and want to visit the Citadel. By the time anyone knew different the Citadel relay would be open. Yet we get the silliest plot imaginably in ME2.

Modifié par glacier1701, 18 février 2010 - 05:18 .

[Thompson family]

Read the linked article. It was an extremely cogent, well-done analysis. I disagree in some key parts though. I'd offer a full response, but I'm at work and this will take some time.

[Doug84]

Thompson family wrote...

Read the linked article. It was an extremely cogent, well-done analysis. I disagree in some key parts though. I'd offer a full response, but I'm at work and this will take some time.

Please do; I'd like to hear the analysis of where you disagree with him.

[Chrisimo79]

@smudboy

first of all, if Shamus thinks that Cerberus in ME1 wasn't any different than Cerberus in ME2 then I agree. I thought he was trying to imply that Cerberus in ME2 was a different organisation. Maybe my fault.

smudboy wrote...
But we were fighting them in ME1.  In ME2 we're completely pro-Cerberus, even if we comment otherwise.

No, we aren't pro-Cerberus. We are 'pro helping the vanishing humans and fighting the Collectors'. Cerberus has the same goal in this case and no one other does so we work with Cerberus.

So you're comparing the Third Reich to Cerberus?  I don't see your point.  Again, you're not disagreeing with Shamus.

I'm saying that even monsters sometimes so things that may be viewed as good. I got the impression that Shamus didn't find Cerberus portrayal to be believable because they were never shown to do good things in ME1.

He's referring to in ME1, how we could've seen the other side of Cerberus.  Instead, we're thrust into the world of Cerberus in ME2, without a mention from TIM of what happened in ME1, including the potnetial Shepard backstory.  That there was no build up.  (I think there's a bit of exposition with Miranda about their experiments and Jack.)

Again it seemed to me that he thinks that ME2 is a rewrite because Cerberus in ME1 was only shown doing bad things and suddenly we discover that they also do good things.

How isn't it?  Shepard (he) dies and is resurrected, and is now working for Cerberus.  He doesn't have to, but he isn't given the option to stop. 

He can let the Reapers win of course. If he doesn't want that he needs to work with Cerberus.

No reasonable lead in. 

Maybe not a long lead in but you are given the choice to see that the Illusive Man is right about the vanishing Colonies and that the Citadel Council and the Alliance don't help. So if you want to fight the threat, you have to work with Cerberus. It's all somewhat simplified of course but there are limits in terms of story exploration.

Pure deus ex machina.  The equivalent of sensationalism in movies.  Shepard just continues on pushing the plot along, with a Cerberus ship (that's nearly identical to the old ship, with some of the same crew.)  That "overaching scheme" he referred to could have easily been in place of the start of ME2, and would've been way more believable than a Cybernetic Jesus.  Ditto with Chakwas and Joker.

So you are telling me that you found ME1's story to be believable? Something like that would likely happen in the real world?

He's with Cerberus because no one will help him, and no one will help him because he's with Cerberus.  I don't know too many resurrection stories, but being the savior of the universe and cheating death after 2 years would tend to have a little more weight than who you're factioned with.

No one helped you in ME1, either. The Council hates you. Everyone besides Anderson and that Admiral (voiced by Lance Henrikson) hates you. No one really cares about the Collectors as they all believe them to be a myth.

[Doug84]

Luc0s wrote...

The writer forgets one major important factor. ME2 takes place in the Terminus System, NOT Council Space.

You could compare it to America and Mexico. They both have their own problems and don't interfere much with each other, even though they're practically neighbors.

The Terminus System has it's own problems regardless from those of Council Space, where ME1 takes place.

Shepard has never heard of the Collectors at the beginning of ME2, that's because the Collectors so far has only be a MINOR problem in the Terminus System, they never set foot in Council Space. This is NOT a plot-hole or retcon. If you pay attention in the beginning of ME2 you'll notice that Miranda explains that the Collectors popped up once in a while, nobody knew why and what they where up to, sometimes they kidnapped a few people without any known reason. Only recently they massively started harvesting human colonies (for the human reaper).

The Collectors make perfect sense and I think they're a good and awesome opponent in ME2.

Agreed! I think way too many people are over looking the location of this all. Even if Shep had keep the base for the Alliance/Council, they'd have to fight through the hostile Terminus species to get to the Omega-4 relay. Cerberus only manage because they act alot more like generally covert merc group

[Fhaileas]

A fair evaluation I would say. The only nitpick I had was his use of the male pronoun to refer to Shephard, I would have preferred a more gender neutral approach.

[Nautica773]

Valid concerns over issues the forums have been arguing since the game's release. There are points that are minor gripes, some that are misinformed but the major problems are rather accurate.



As part of a trilogy, ME2 is just a waste of player time. As a narrative, it is probably the weakest BioWare has produced. If the character narratives had been tied together better and if the real plot had the same work and polish it would have been a lot better.



But it doesn't really excuse the unnecessary retconning especially since BioWare had planned to make a trilogy with the first game.

[Sayantsi]

Sirsmirkalot wrote...

http://www.shamusyou...dedtale/?p=7004

While I think he sometimes looks a bit to far into things, he does make some damned good points.

I think the whole review is off base because it fails to address the fact that as new facts come to light, perspective shifts.  I think that was a big plot of ME2 - you as a Human new to the scene really know little about the galaxy and its inhabitants, or even your enemy.  The more info that comes out, the more complex things become, and old tenets need to be updated.

The author basically wants Bioware to connect the dots for him on everything and misses the point - we should connect the dots, how we see fit, to make our own sense of things. He talks about Cerberus as a rewrite and not a twist, but it is a twist - throughout the game you can go head to head with TIM or cooperate, or change your perspective throughout  the game.

Killing Shepard isn't about rebooting the game, its a tool to let time pass while Shep doesn't get involved.  The part about the Normandy being revised, it was an experimental ship to begin with, so why not build on that template?  The part about renaming the ship the Normandy, that was in the story line, it was renamed by Joker - he's a sentimental guy.  Yes, there are some odd points, like the doctor now being with Cerebus, but the author is nitpicking at too much for the sake of being critical imo.

The author just seems to have missed some huge points, like the fact that Collectors aren't organic - they are mostly tech anymore after an eon of being patched together.  Talk to Mordin.  Other than that, some good points are in that review.

Modifié par Sayantsi, 18 février 2010 - 04:40 .

[stillnotking]

Luc0s wrote...

The writer forgets one major important factor. ME2 takes place in the Terminus System, NOT Council Space.

You could compare it to America and Mexico. They both have their own problems and don't interfere much with each other, even though they're practically neighbors.

If a hundred thousand Americans disappeared in Mexico, I'm pretty sure it would be a big deal.

[aaniadyen]

stillnotking wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

The writer forgets one major important factor. ME2 takes place in the Terminus System, NOT Council Space.

You could compare it to America and Mexico. They both have their own problems and don't interfere much with each other, even though they're practically neighbors.

If a hundred thousand Americans disappeared in Mexico, I'm pretty sure it would be a big deal.

I think you're underestimating how big a place the galaxy is...

I agree with the author about how the reapers using the collectors is totally unfeasible. It's inefficient, and they use them in a counter-intuitive fashion. One thing I disagree with on that point though is the fact that a few hundred thousand people would be a big deal. The galaxy is ridiculously large. If there was a total human population of 1 trillion, they'd collonize less than a percent of the galaxy. In addition to this...the alliance would probably have a lot of troubble getting a Citadel-sanctioned warrent to enter the Terminus systems to investigate. Remember how worried they were when you wanted to go to Ilos in ME1? And that was just 1 ship. One ship which could completely mask it's footprint, effectively making it impossible to detect. The author makes some of good points (some better than others, with varying levels of accuracy). He seems to make a lot of assumptions though, and that hurts his arguments.

Modifié par aaniadyen, 18 février 2010 - 04:38 .

[addiction21]

stillnotking wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

The writer forgets one major important factor. ME2 takes place in the Terminus System, NOT Council Space.

You could compare it to America and Mexico. They both have their own problems and don't interfere much with each other, even though they're practically neighbors.

If a hundred thousand Americans disappeared in Mexico, I'm pretty sure it would be a big deal.

Except that it is a 100,000 mexicans disapeared. As far as that analogy is concerned.

[gotthammer]

Great article. Agree w/ all points, especially the choice between cooking the Collector's base or handing it over to Cerberus. Really weak, that bit.

As for the 'slushee = Human Reaper': maybe it will be part of an attempt to link ME w/ DA:O.
Because the whole turning organics into slushee, which in turn is turned into a Reaper doesn't really make much sense...unless it's BLOOD MAGIC.
(I mean, it's not like you need thousands upon thousands of DNA samples...methinks it's lifeforce they're after...and that means M*A*G*I*C!!!)
Sooo...can my Shep be an AW in ME3?

[stillnotking]

addiction21 wrote...

stillnotking wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

The writer forgets one major important factor. ME2 takes place in the Terminus System, NOT Council Space.

You could compare it to America and Mexico. They both have their own problems and don't interfere much with each other, even though they're practically neighbors.

If a hundred thousand Americans disappeared in Mexico, I'm pretty sure it would be a big deal.

Except that it is a 100,000 mexicans disapeared. As far as that analogy is concerned.

No... they are human colonists, they're not natives.  It would be like 100k American expatriates disappearing.

[Doug84]

stillnotking wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

The writer forgets one major important factor. ME2 takes place in the Terminus System, NOT Council Space.

You could compare it to America and Mexico. They both have their own problems and don't interfere much with each other, even though they're practically neighbors.

If a hundred thousand Americans disappeared in Mexico, I'm pretty sure it would be a big deal.

If a hundred thousand Americans left America and went off to found their own country, I don't think America would put it as too high a proirity when trying to fight 'the war on terror' at the same time.

[Nautica773]

Doug84 wrote...
If a hundred thousand Americans left America and went off to found their own country, I don't think America would put it as too high a proirity when trying to fight 'the war on terror' at the same time.

I wasn't aware the Alliance was fighting a war. It sounded more like they were doing housecleaning.

"Sure, we'll take a look at those missing colonists in a bit. But in the meantime, we need more fish for the Presidium!"

[Doug84]

Nautica773 wrote...

Doug84 wrote...
If a hundred thousand Americans left America and went off to found their own country, I don't think America would put it as too high a proirity when trying to fight 'the war on terror' at the same time.

I wasn't aware the Alliance was fighting a war. It sounded more like they were doing housecleaning.

"Sure, we'll take a look at those missing colonists in a bit. But in the meantime, we need more fish for the Presidium!"

The Geth outside of the persus vale, their new responsiblities in providing ships for the Council defense fleets, and there pre-existing responsibilties to defend Alliance colonies from raids, slavers, and mercs.

EDIT: Also, the non-Alliance colonists had pretty much said "Screw you Alliance, we want to be independent" and were. Hence, no taxes, no soldiers, and no real association with the Alliance

Modifié par Doug84, 18 février 2010 - 04:45 .

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

Yup, a pretty damn good critique of ME2 right there, though I would forego calling the squad recruitment all around awesome. Its undoubtedly where the best moments of the game come from, but besides the occasional foreshadow for what might crop up at a later date, it felt like exactly what it was: side content.