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[Potato Power]

FlyinElk212 wrote...

Potato Power wrote...

@FlyinElk212 EPIC SIG AND PROFILE PICTURE COINCIDENCE.

@Potato Power-- Awesome username. I'm totally jealous.

Why thank you. I'll give you props, you've been a member MUCH longer than I, so the sig is rightfully yours, so I guess I'll have to:
A) Find a new sig or
Look like an unimaginative ****.
Decisions, decisions...

[smudboy]

@D4rk50ul808 wrote...

Okay.  I see what you're trying to say.  But a good story should a) not have plot holes, leave things to the imagination...but not the main plot.

In ME2 we're left with even more questions and exactly where we were at the end of ME1.  Shepard didn't develop as a character at all.  The enemy/main force that came into existence in ME2 is gone, and we only learned that they used to be Protheans.  And *sigh* the Baby Arnold bit.

I, too, look at these games as a Choose your own Adventure.  And if you want to speculate, that's fine. But it's hilarious to read.

But you have to realize: ME2 wasn't put together or told all that well.  (Shamu's posts shows that, but go anywhere on the forums and find what others found.)  It wasn't horrible, but it wasn't all that good.

[harazal]

That was actually a terrible review, filled with opinion, more opinion and finally, in case we didnt get enough opinion, just a bit more.

His claims about Cerebus on the first page alone, are contradictory. To be quite frank, we knew nothing of Cerebus in the first game. We knew they were experimenting on people, but we also knew that mega corps were doing the same thing.

Its also strange how some people can latch on to the smallest things in sci - fi. We're taking about physics we can't even imagine, but this guy has a problem with people being resurrected by alien tech.

I also am surprised by his thoughts on the collectors being a dire threat. Maybe its just me, but i actually got the point that they were not a major threat. There was only one ship, for gods sake. It obliterated the normady because it outgunned it, not because it was a threat on the scale of Nazara. I mean, they were hitting small targets on the fringe of human space, striking silently, and running away. They were never, at least in my eyes, portrayed a mega threat. The threat was the development of an actual reaper/human hybrid

And thats just my problems with the first page, it just gets worse, filled with the same rants i've seen on the forum.

A ****** poor article

Modifié par harazal, 18 février 2010 - 09:02 .

[Computron2000]

smudboy wrote...
I asked valid questions. Please answer them.  If you think I can't think along your lines, you're right, because I don't understand.  Which is why I asked.

But since you're trolling now...I bid you good day.

Well hello pot, meet kettle!

smudboy wrote...
Huh?  Do you even think before you write?

I love throwing the exact same attitude i recieve at people. Such fun! +10 renegade points!

[Doug84]

D4rk50ul808 wrote...

Doug84 wrote...

Erm, I don't see that as evidence of a race older than the Reapers. The Reapers made the Keepers, right? Chorban was just coming to understand what the keepers where, and because the existent of the Reapers was hidden by the Council (Sovereign was 'A Geth Dreadnought' to the general public).

The way I see that, the Reapers created the Keepers almost straight after they themselves where created. Or more accurately, I think the Keepers where made by the first species 'ascend' to Reaperhood. But true, I did miss that point. Definitely shows Sovereign was a dirty liar, and the Reapers haven't 'always existed' though I didn't believe him when he said that.

Synthetic life can't just evolve, it has to be constructed.  Single cell molocules can (according to science) evolve into living beings, when is the last time you ever heard of a piece of wire becoming a super computer.  Something built the Reapers around the same time the Keepers were built, and since the technology is the same as the Relays it is assumed that all of these things originated from the same Race.  I don't think the species "ascended to Reaperhood", I think they created a vessel to use and effectively live forever to escape annihilation until they can find a way to return.  The problem is the lack of reproduction ability and the feeling inhabiting a cold machine would create.  Consider a Reaper vessel as a Giant stasis device that allows them to survive but not grow.  They want to repopulate the galaxy and to do that they would need a new host body that they are compatible with, that is not affected by the original cause of their demise.

The real question for me is what caused them to resort to all of this in the first place.  What could have threatened them to the point of extinction with all this technology they possessed?  Dark Energy killing stars and entire systems with it?  Plague (obviously they have knowledge of one judging by Mordins mission)?  Did they breed themselves into weakness like what would happen if all Asari's were pureblood?

Another thing to think about, during a side mission in ME2 you see the flashback from the Prothean beacons in the first game.  This time there is a Collector in the flashback, is this really a glimse at the past or is it the current time/future?

I believe you misunderstand me. I wasn't saying Sovereign and the first Reapers weren't created.

I'm saying that they are...were once their own creators. The Reaper builders harvested there own species and converted them into the organic paste to make the first Reapers. They thought of this as 'ascension' - to be a Reaper is to achieve what the Geth call 'Unity' - to have the minds of your own species in a single shell... they'd see that as God hood - immortal, beyond their own organic origins, the essience of their existance preserved forever. They have cheated death and become Gods, in their own eyes.

The Reapers, newly formed and constructing their plans, knew other organics would evolve. Hence they used their Mass Relays and the Citadel as a honey trap to ensure they could defeat any new species that would evolve in the infinite expanse of time. And to a species that proved its worth? Ascension - this is what they where trying to do with humanity - convert every human they could find into the organic paste and use to make a new 'God' - and new Reaper. To ascend the humans beyond the 'weak organic shells' they are into the 'perfection' of Reaperhood.

[ZennExile]

Computron2000 wrote...

smudboy wrote...
I asked valid questions. Please answer them.  If you think I can't think along your lines, you're right, because I don't understand.  Which is why I asked.

But since you're trolling now...I bid you good day.

Well hello pot, meet kettle!

smudboy wrote...
Huh?  Do you even think before you write?

I love throwing the exact same attitude i recieve at people. Such fun! +10 renegade points!

So you post like an Ftard because you think everyone else is an Ftard?  I call shananagens.  I believe whole heartedly that you are just fcking retarded. 

[smudboy]

Computron2000 wrote...

smudboy wrote...
I asked valid questions. Please answer them.  If you think I can't think along your lines, you're right, because I don't understand.  Which is why I asked.

But since you're trolling now...I bid you good day.

Well hello pot, meet kettle!

smudboy wrote...
Huh?  Do you even think before you write?

I love throwing the exact same attitude i recieve at people. Such fun! +10 renegade points!

Then I'll be the first to apologize.   Can we go back to answering questions?

[smudboy]

harazal wrote...

That was actually a terrible review, filled with opinion, more opinion and finally, in case we didnt get enough opinion, just a bit more.

His claims about Cerebus on the first page alone, are contradictory. To be quite frank, we knew nothing of Cerebus in the first game. We knew they were experimenting on people, but we also knew that mega corps were doing the same thing.

Its also strange how some people can latch on to the smallest things in sci - fi. We're taking about physics we can't even imagine, but this guy has a problem with people being resurrected by alien tech.

I also am surprised by his thoughts on the collectors being a dire threat. Maybe its just me, but i actually got the point that they were not a major threat. There was only one ship, for gods sake. It obliterated the normady because it outgunned it, not because it was a threat on the scale of Nazara. I mean, they were hitting small targets on the fringe of human space, striking silently, and running away. They were never, at least in my eyes, portrayed a mega threat. The threat was the development of an actual reaper/human hybrid

And thats just my problems with the first page, it just gets worse, filled with the same rants i've seen on the forum.

A ****** poor article

From ME1, we actually learn quite a lot:
masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Cerberus

Now of course, if you never pursued Cerberus in ME1, then true, you'd know nothing about them.  Suffice to say, they're some pretty nasty people.

I have a problem as using resurrection as a plot device, alien tech or otherwise (what, they used alien tech?  No, they just used cybernetic implants), when it clearly wasn't needed.  It's called a plot hole, a veritable no-no in writing.

The Collectors are not a major threat?  They killed Shepard.  They've taken 10s of thousands of people from human colonies.  The Collector threat is the entire main plot of ME2.  If you didn't think the Collectors were a major threat, you must've been bored out of your mind playing this game...

[Doug84]

smudboy wrote...

harazal wrote...

That was actually a terrible review, filled with opinion, more opinion and finally, in case we didnt get enough opinion, just a bit more.

His claims about Cerebus on the first page alone, are contradictory. To be quite frank, we knew nothing of Cerebus in the first game. We knew they were experimenting on people, but we also knew that mega corps were doing the same thing.

Its also strange how some people can latch on to the smallest things in sci - fi. We're taking about physics we can't even imagine, but this guy has a problem with people being resurrected by alien tech.

I also am surprised by his thoughts on the collectors being a dire threat. Maybe its just me, but i actually got the point that they were not a major threat. There was only one ship, for gods sake. It obliterated the normady because it outgunned it, not because it was a threat on the scale of Nazara. I mean, they were hitting small targets on the fringe of human space, striking silently, and running away. They were never, at least in my eyes, portrayed a mega threat. The threat was the development of an actual reaper/human hybrid

And thats just my problems with the first page, it just gets worse, filled with the same rants i've seen on the forum.

A ****** poor article

From ME1, we actually learn quite a lot:
masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Cerberus

Now of course, if you never pursued Cerberus in ME1, then true, you'd know nothing about them.  Suffice to say, they're some pretty nasty people.

I have a problem as using resurrection as a plot device, alien tech or otherwise (what, they used alien tech?  No, they just used cybernetic implants), when it clearly wasn't needed.  It's called a plot hole, a veritable no-no in writing.

The Collectors are not a major threat?  They killed Shepard.  They've taken 10s of thousands of people from human colonies.  The Collector threat is the entire main plot of ME2.  If you didn't think the Collectors were a major threat, you must've been bored out of your mind playing this game...

I mostly agree with what you said, though I did like the resurection thing myself...I know alot of people don't like it... 

I dunno, maybe its because I wasn't aware it was coming before the game was released - I gathered that some people had had that part of the plot spoiled...?

I actually wasn't very excited about ME 2 before release, though I knew I'd enjoy it. As you can probably tell, its been one of the best games, for me personally, in years - only Dragon Age has matched it in staying power.

[D4rk50ul808]

Doug84 wrote...

D4rk50ul808 wrote...

Doug84 wrote...

Erm, I don't see that as evidence of a race older than the Reapers. The Reapers made the Keepers, right? Chorban was just coming to understand what the keepers where, and because the existent of the Reapers was hidden by the Council (Sovereign was 'A Geth Dreadnought' to the general public).

The way I see that, the Reapers created the Keepers almost straight after they themselves where created. Or more accurately, I think the Keepers where made by the first species 'ascend' to Reaperhood. But true, I did miss that point. Definitely shows Sovereign was a dirty liar, and the Reapers haven't 'always existed' though I didn't believe him when he said that.

Synthetic life can't just evolve, it has to be constructed.  Single cell molocules can (according to science) evolve into living beings, when is the last time you ever heard of a piece of wire becoming a super computer.  Something built the Reapers around the same time the Keepers were built, and since the technology is the same as the Relays it is assumed that all of these things originated from the same Race.  I don't think the species "ascended to Reaperhood", I think they created a vessel to use and effectively live forever to escape annihilation until they can find a way to return.  The problem is the lack of reproduction ability and the feeling inhabiting a cold machine would create.  Consider a Reaper vessel as a Giant stasis device that allows them to survive but not grow.  They want to repopulate the galaxy and to do that they would need a new host body that they are compatible with, that is not affected by the original cause of their demise.

The real question for me is what caused them to resort to all of this in the first place.  What could have threatened them to the point of extinction with all this technology they possessed?  Dark Energy killing stars and entire systems with it?  Plague (obviously they have knowledge of one judging by Mordins mission)?  Did they breed themselves into weakness like what would happen if all Asari's were pureblood?

Another thing to think about, during a side mission in ME2 you see the flashback from the Prothean beacons in the first game.  This time there is a Collector in the flashback, is this really a glimse at the past or is it the current time/future?

I believe you misunderstand me. I wasn't saying Sovereign and the first Reapers weren't created.

I'm saying that they are...were once their own creators. The Reaper builders harvested there own species and converted them into the organic paste to make the first Reapers. They thought of this as 'ascension' - to be a Reaper is to achieve what the Geth call 'Unity' - to have the minds of your own species in a single shell... they'd see that as God hood - immortal, beyond their own organic origins, the essience of their existance preserved forever. They have cheated death and become Gods, in their own eyes.

The Reapers, newly formed and constructing their plans, knew other organics would evolve. Hence they used their Mass Relays and the Citadel as a honey trap to ensure they could defeat any new species that would evolve in the infinite expanse of time. And to a species that proved its worth? Ascension - this is what they where trying to do with humanity - convert every human they could find into the organic paste and use to make a new 'God' - and new Reaper. To ascend the humans beyond the 'weak organic shells' they are into the 'perfection' of Reaperhood.

I did misunderstand my bad.  Good response by the way, better than the "This game suxxorz" stuff you usually find on gaming forums.  There is a lot of in game information to back your theory up which is a nice change.  I guess there are a couple possibilities going into the third game as their should be.  I do have a couple questions though.

There are no organic parts in the current Reapers, why would they need to incorporate human DNA into the new one?

Why also would they want to offer ascention to humans but not the Protheans, what is special about humans?

I somehow don't think Reapers are selfless beings who would help a race who they deemed worthy.  Wouldn't they have some kind of motive behind it to benefit themselves?  I don't see how making more "Human Reapers" would help the already existing ones.

[broutefoin]

D4rk50ul808 wrote...

Doug84 wrote...

Erm, I don't see that as evidence of a race older than the Reapers. The Reapers made the Keepers, right? Chorban was just coming to understand what the keepers where, and because the existent of the Reapers was hidden by the Council (Sovereign was 'A Geth Dreadnought' to the general public).

The way I see that, the Reapers created the Keepers almost straight after they themselves where created. Or more accurately, I think the Keepers where made by the first species 'ascend' to Reaperhood. But true, I did miss that point. Definitely shows Sovereign was a dirty liar, and the Reapers haven't 'always existed' though I didn't believe him when he said that.

Synthetic life can't just evolve, it has to be constructed.  Single cell molocules can (according to science) evolve into living beings, when is the last time you ever heard of a piece of wire becoming a super computer.  Something built the Reapers around the same time the Keepers were built, and since the technology is the same as the Relays it is assumed that all of these things originated from the same Race.  I don't think the species "ascended to Reaperhood", I think they created a vessel to use and effectively live forever to escape annihilation until they can find a way to return.  The problem is the lack of reproduction ability and the feeling inhabiting a cold machine would create.  Consider a Reaper vessel as a Giant stasis device that allows them to survive but not grow.  They want to repopulate the galaxy and to do that they would need a new host body that they are compatible with, that is not affected by the original cause of their demise.

The real question for me is what caused them to resort to all of this in the first place.  What could have threatened them to the point of extinction with all this technology they possessed?  Dark Energy killing stars and entire systems with it?  Plague (obviously they have knowledge of one judging by Mordins mission)?  Did they breed themselves into weakness like what would happen if all Asari's were pureblood?

Another thing to think about, during a side mission in ME2 you see the flashback from the Prothean beacons in the first game.  This time there is a Collector in the flashback, is this really a glimse at the past or is it the current time/future?

the only thing you need for synthetic life to evolve is the ability for the that synthetic life to "reproduce" with minute variations, thats it, sure, other factors will shape the path of evolution, but the basic is reproduction with variation

[BobbyTheI]

You know... as somebody who has spent way too much time analyzing and arguing about the plot of this game... I really can't find a lot of fault in this.

In my opinion, ME2 suffers from what I like to call "Just A Few More Lines Syndrome."  Pretty much every one of the problems pointed out in this article could have been dealt with just by adding a few more lines to the game.

For instance, the thing about the colonists being abducted in the Terminus Systems that people have mentioned, and that being the reason why the Council and the Alliance are reluctant to step in.  Yeah, if you've played the first one and remember a lot of the plot (the whole Terminus System thing was mentioned in the first game, but it's easy to miss), you remember why this is the case.  But aside from the Council saying, "Well, as long as you stay in those remote Terminus Systems, we don't care what you do," it really isn't touched upon in ME2.

Yeah, it is annoying when writers treat their audiences like they're morons, and explain everything five times.  But it's pretty easy to go the other way, too.  I could come up with plausible explanations for all the issues this guy brings up, but again, that's MY explanation.  That's not the GAME'S explanation, because it didn't provide one.  And these aren't fundamental problems with the whole game that can't be explained away.  With just a few extra lines, the whole thing could have been wrapped up in a nice package.

I still love the game, and like he said, since getting to know the characters is the main bulk of the game, and I like the characters, it's a fun ride.  But it's not hard to see that the plotline has holes, ones that we can hope will be filled in once ME3 comes around.

[Doug84]

D4rk50ul808 wrote...

Doug84 wrote...

I believe you misunderstand me. I wasn't saying Sovereign and the first Reapers weren't created.

I'm saying that they are...were once their own creators. The Reaper builders harvested there own species and converted them into the organic paste to make the first Reapers. They thought of this as 'ascension' - to be a Reaper is to achieve what the Geth call 'Unity' - to have the minds of your own species in a single shell... they'd see that as God hood - immortal, beyond their own organic origins, the essience of their existance preserved forever. They have cheated death and become Gods, in their own eyes.

The Reapers, newly formed and constructing their plans, knew other organics would evolve. Hence they used their Mass Relays and the Citadel as a honey trap to ensure they could defeat any new species that would evolve in the infinite expanse of time. And to a species that proved its worth? Ascension - this is what they where trying to do with humanity - convert every human they could find into the organic paste and use to make a new 'God' - and new Reaper. To ascend the humans beyond the 'weak organic shells' they are into the 'perfection' of Reaperhood.

I did misunderstand my bad.  Good response by the way, better than the "This game suxxorz" stuff you usually find on gaming forums.  There is a lot of in game information to back your theory up which is a nice change.  I guess there are a couple possibilities going into the third game as their should be.  I do have a couple questions though.

There are no organic parts in the current Reapers, why would they need to incorporate human DNA into the new one?

Why also would they want to offer ascention to humans but not the Protheans, what is special about humans?

I somehow don't think Reapers are selfless beings who would help a race who they deemed worthy.  Wouldn't they have some kind of motive behind it to benefit themselves?  I don't see how making more "Human Reapers" would help the already existing ones.

Thanks - there are a few people around who do like to discuss rather than argue around the forum Not that I claim to be perfect myself, but who is?

Anywho... I believe the material the Reapers are made of are unknown - its a material beyond Council-species understanding, in-so-far as we know. And if you talk with EDI when you see the Human Reaper, she says 'Their not synethics - their sentient constructs' - so a mix of organic/inorganic material is implied.

I think the 'paste' the humans, or any organic for that matter, somehow contains the .... 'spirit' of the individual who was gloop-ed - a mix of elements of their consciousness - but that part is a guess. It certainly contains their DNA. So, when the Reaper is constructed using this organic/inorganic compound, the 'minds' of their victims are inside and the resulting Reaper is the sum total of the harvested species.

It does seem strange that the Reapers consider what they are doing is actually 'saving' a species ("we are your salvation through destruction" - Harbinger, end of collector base sequence) but from their point of view, organic life is primative, choatic, short. Little more than raw material than might show promise.

ALTERNATIVELY - I just came up with this idea, though I think you said something about this yourself earlier - what if the species Reapered doesn't matter? What if...the Reapers are shells for a energy based lifeform to inhabit? Maybe even a Dark Energy/Dark Matter species?

The humans get harvested and their DNA is used to make the organic-synethic Reaper construct, allowing this 'true enemy' as you called them to 'live' inside the Reaper... possibly...

Modifié par Doug84, 18 février 2010 - 09:43 .

[Doug84]

broutefoin wrote...

D4rk50ul808 wrote...

Synthetic life can't just evolve, it has to be constructed.  Single cell molocules can (according to science) evolve into living beings, when is the last time you ever heard of a piece of wire becoming a super computer.  Something built the Reapers around the same time the Keepers were built, and since the technology is the same as the Relays it is assumed that all of these things originated from the same Race.  I don't think the species "ascended to Reaperhood", I think they created a vessel to use and effectively live forever to escape annihilation until they can find a way to return.  The problem is the lack of reproduction ability and the feeling inhabiting a cold machine would create.  Consider a Reaper vessel as a Giant stasis device that allows them to survive but not grow.  They want to repopulate the galaxy and to do that they would need a new host body that they are compatible with, that is not affected by the original cause of their demise.

The real question for me is what caused them to resort to all of this in the first place.  What could have threatened them to the point of extinction with all this technology they possessed?  Dark Energy killing stars and entire systems with it?  Plague (obviously they have knowledge of one judging by Mordins mission)?  Did they breed themselves into weakness like what would happen if all Asari's were pureblood?

Another thing to think about, during a side mission in ME2 you see the flashback from the Prothean beacons in the first game.  This time there is a Collector in the flashback, is this really a glimse at the past or is it the current time/future?

the only thing you need for synthetic life to evolve is the ability for the that synthetic life to "reproduce" with minute variations, thats it, sure, other factors will shape the path of evolution, but the basic is reproduction with variation

Its possible. But the term "synthetic" implies initial construction. I think what he meant was a synthetic species simply can't form into an initial state by itself. If it could, it would be organic.

[Terraneaux]

Doug84 wrote...

Its possible. But the term "synthetic" implies initial construction. I think what he meant was a synthetic species simply can't form into an initial state by itself. If it could, it would be organic.

It depends.  Sovereign refers to 'organic' life quite frequently, and I assume he means life based around what we understand to be 'organic' chemistry - chains of carbon and such.  It's totally a bonkers sci-fi concept, but it isn't out of the question for an organism to evolve made mostly out of metallic atoms.  I'm not sure that's what the designers were thinking of, however.  In the end, we're computers made up of carbon and other atoms floating in water, held in by skin, and something like the geth are computers made up of metallic atoms, primarily.  In real life we've made simple biological organisms from scratch, but we still call them 'organic.'

[Doug84]

Terraneaux wrote...

Doug84 wrote...

Its possible. But the term "synthetic" implies initial construction. I think what he meant was a synthetic species simply can't form into an initial state by itself. If it could, it would be organic.

It depends.  Sovereign refers to 'organic' life quite frequently, and I assume he means life based around what we understand to be 'organic' chemistry - chains of carbon and such.  It's totally a bonkers sci-fi concept, but it isn't out of the question for an organism to evolve made mostly out of metallic atoms.  I'm not sure that's what the designers were thinking of, however.  In the end, we're computers made up of carbon and other atoms floating in water, held in by skin, and something like the geth are computers made up of metallic atoms, primarily.  In real life we've made simple biological organisms from scratch, but we still call them 'organic.'

I would call that organic life too. Be it Silicon or metal based, if it was not initially created by another form of life (the Geth, for example) its organic. Though I suppose Sovereign and its kinda could view themselves differently - as 'divine creations' - 'divine life'. Of course, we would disagree, but the space cthulhus aren't interested in our opinions

[Thompson family]

Bump. I plan on adding to this thread tonight and want to be able to find it.

[DomerPyle]

i wholeheartedly agree with everything shamus said.

[Terraneaux]

Doug84 wrote...



I would call that organic life too. Be it Silicon or metal based, if it was not initially created by another form of life (the Geth, for example) its organic. Though I suppose Sovereign and its kinda could view themselves differently - as 'divine creations' - 'divine life'. Of course, we would disagree, but the space cthulhus aren't interested in our opinions

You know, honestly, Sovereign's comment about 'We have no beginning.  We have no end.' made me think.  Their origin could be like that of Mind Flayers in DnD: they travelled back in time and founded an empire, which then fell, and caused mind flayers to rise again for a final empire at the end of time, and then they travel back in time, and so on.  The Reapers could be the result of a closed time paradox loop, with, well, 'no beginning and no end.'

Not that time travel has made any appearance whatsoever in the ME universe yet, but I know the Bioware writers play DnD, and Sovereign had tentacles, so I think some baseless speculation is warranted.

EDIT: and also, that definition you give is questionable - babies are 'made' via an on-board assembly plant which their mothers have, and a 'synthetic' lifeform could have some sort of literal assembly plant which makes more of them.  The boundaries are... questionable, considering that some animals (modern dogs) were more or less created from the raw materials of their ancestors by humans using selective breeding.  I think the difference between 'organic' and 'synthetic' life is entirely artifical (i know it's a terrible pun).  I'd love to be able to use a similar argument to get the Geth and Quarians to make peace at some point.

Modifié par Terraneaux, 19 février 2010 - 12:17 .

[Doug84]

Terraneaux wrote...

Doug84 wrote...



I would call that organic life too. Be it Silicon or metal based, if it was not initially created by another form of life (the Geth, for example) its organic. Though I suppose Sovereign and its kinda could view themselves differently - as 'divine creations' - 'divine life'. Of course, we would disagree, but the space cthulhus aren't interested in our opinions

You know, honestly, Sovereign's comment about 'We have no beginning.  We have no end.' made me think.  Their origin could be like that of Mind Flayers in DnD: they travelled back in time and founded an empire, which then fell, and caused mind flayers to rise again for a final empire at the end of time, and then they travel back in time, and so on.  The Reapers could be the result of a closed time paradox loop, with, well, 'no beginning and no end.'

Not that time travel has made any appearance whatsoever in the ME universe yet, but I know the Bioware writers play DnD, and Sovereign had tentacles, so I think some baseless speculation is warranted.

EDIT: and also, that definition you give is questionable - babies are 'made' via an on-board assembly plant which their mothers have, and a 'synthetic' lifeform could have some sort of literal assembly plant which makes more of them.  The boundaries are... questionable, considering that some animals (modern dogs) were more or less created from the raw materials of their ancestors by humans using selective breeding.  I think the difference between 'organic' and 'synthetic' life is entirely artifical (i know it's a terrible pun).  I'd love to be able to use a similar argument to get the Geth and Quarians to make peace at some point.

The view I take is that an organic life form, in this sense of the word (there is an official NASA meaning to the word that defines the basic chemistry, but ignore that for now ) is that an inorganic state forms into an organic one. Of course, the difference between organic and inorganic can be a very blurry line, especially in its early stages. And given we are not sure how life began here, its difficult to be sure how to define the dividing line between the two 'states' (though that is a failure of our minds to rely on an on-off approach to the problem, I think).

A synthetic lifeform is a form of live created by another life form outside of the normal reproductive process - if an organic baby is the child of biology, a synthetic creation is the child of the intellect. Whilst I disagree that there is no distinction between organic and synthetic life, I do believe both forms of life have the right to exist, as it were - and as such, the Quarians should make peace with the Geth and draw a line under their very troubled relationship.

EDIT: As for the time travel thing...maybe. I've heard a theory the Reapers came from a dimension without time. I personally think the millions of years of stagnantion have warped their minds so they truly believe themselves Gods without beginning or end.

Modifié par Doug84, 19 février 2010 - 12:26 .

[broutefoin]

Doug84 wrote...

broutefoin wrote...

D4rk50ul808 wrote...

Synthetic life can't just evolve, it has to be constructed.  Single cell molocules can (according to science) evolve into living beings, when is the last time you ever heard of a piece of wire becoming a super computer.  Something built the Reapers around the same time the Keepers were built, and since the technology is the same as the Relays it is assumed that all of these things originated from the same Race.  I don't think the species "ascended to Reaperhood", I think they created a vessel to use and effectively live forever to escape annihilation until they can find a way to return.  The problem is the lack of reproduction ability and the feeling inhabiting a cold machine would create.  Consider a Reaper vessel as a Giant stasis device that allows them to survive but not grow.  They want to repopulate the galaxy and to do that they would need a new host body that they are compatible with, that is not affected by the original cause of their demise.

The real question for me is what caused them to resort to all of this in the first place.  What could have threatened them to the point of extinction with all this technology they possessed?  Dark Energy killing stars and entire systems with it?  Plague (obviously they have knowledge of one judging by Mordins mission)?  Did they breed themselves into weakness like what would happen if all Asari's were pureblood?

Another thing to think about, during a side mission in ME2 you see the flashback from the Prothean beacons in the first game.  This time there is a Collector in the flashback, is this really a glimse at the past or is it the current time/future?

the only thing you need for synthetic life to evolve is the ability for the that synthetic life to "reproduce" with minute variations, thats it, sure, other factors will shape the path of evolution, but the basic is reproduction with variation

Its possible. But the term "synthetic" implies initial construction. I think what he meant was a synthetic species simply can't form into an initial state by itself. If it could, it would be organic.

yeah, re-read it, and im sure that is what he meant, that is just a pet peeve of mine, i would have put it like this, "synthetic life cant arise on its own" 

i realise this is nitpicking on somantic at this point, i just really bugs me lol,  evolution stands for changes over time, and doesnt have anything to do with origins  apologies if it seemed like an impatient reply, i blame it the constant assaults on my sanity by creationist co-workers... aaarrrrggggg!! *goes insane and eats droppings from the litter box*

[AtreiyaN7]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Terrible review. It's like the reviewer completely ignored the story and focused specifically on key points in relation to the first game.

Moral of the story: intertwining two games is great, but you need a self-sustaining story first and foremost. Mass Effect 2 did just that.

Just a taste for the curious:

4) All of your original crew resign the Alliance and (on their own, apparently) join up with this terrorist organization. They seem to do so without knowing ahead of time that they will end up working for you again on a copy of the original ship. Apparently your entire crew was teetering on the edge of treason at the end of the last game? (Really. Dr. Chakwas’ excuse for signing up with Cerberus is that she missed space travel. She signed up with one of the most ruthless organizations in the galaxy – an organization that you had fought many times in the first game – because that was the only way she could think of to get back into space!?!) So by the time you take command of the new Normandy, everyone is already waiting for you.

Pure drivel.

Agreed, this item 4 that you listed is completely inaccurate. Teetering on the edge of treason at the end of the last game? Did the author actually, oh, PLAY ME2?! If he did, why then I guess he'd be aware that Dr. Chakwas only signed on after the events at the beginning of ME2 - and it wasn't a sudden decision on HER part. I mean...forget it, if that much of the article is wrong, it's not worth reading/responding to. If you're a journalist/writer, getting your facts straight is extremely important (and he seems to have made at least one huge factual error right there  ).

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 19 février 2010 - 03:10 .

[Canez fan 1988]

So how many trilogies did this bum write?

[Vaenier]

ME2 had a plot? I must have missed it on my last 3 plays.

[Sharn01]

Canez fan 1988 wrote...

So how many trilogies did this bum write?

I wish people would stop using remarks like this. 

Since when do you have to be a professional in a field to criticize someone's work? 

If a plumber fixes your sink and it still leak's, are you not allowed to complain because only a professional plumber can judge his workmanship? 

If you order a steak medium rare and it comes to your table burnt, do you eat it and smile because only a professional chef can judge the quality of food?

Agree or disagree with the man, or a mix of both, but comment's like this are stupid.

Modifié par Sharn01, 19 février 2010 - 03:17 .