250 réponses à ce sujet

[KainrycKarr]

Madecologist wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

None of you are going to win. The argument won't stop. Just give up and agree to disagree.

Alas, I can not agree to disagree. I can agree that he is flat out wrong and is just being annoying. That it be a more prudent and wise action to just stop arguing with him since it seems he is the only one that thinks this anyways and why should we care what he things.

The agree to disagree to me reeks of accepting other people's opinions no matter how invalid. That I won't do, Walk away from a mess because it is pointless. That I will.

You don't have to accept their opinions; in fact, continuing to argue does that; it acknowledges and validates their opinion.

He won't change his mind. we won't change our mind. Logically, for both parties, it makes sense to just...stop.

[Naltair]

Xanfaus wrote...

 I think that the tech specialist job is the only one that's explicit enough not to lead to this sort of confusion. 
As for the squad leader job, Miranda does nothing except interject herself whenever the story progresses so much so that it seemed that she viewed herself as a kind of defacto second in command while during nothing to prove herself to the player beforehand. Miranda was in charge of the Lazarus project meaning that she lead some scientists for two years. There is no in game mention of her being an awesome or even an okay combat sqaud leader. 

Furthermore, arguably Jacob would be a more acceptable squad judging by his response in his loyalty mission.

As for Samara herself, even if she couldn't lead a team properly, its reasonable to think that an asari matriarch would be able to power through a couple dozen collectors. To make matters worse, no one in samara's team dies if she is chosen, the tech person is somehow the one that gets. That's supposedly because she doesn't know to call for cover fire which shouldn't matter because half a dozen heavily armed people are standing right next to them.

True but that is just a consequence of a poor decision.  It isn't exactly reality it's a game consequence of making a wrong decision.  It's the game telling you there is a better choice to get that particular job done.

[DuffyMJ]

Whatever, I'm sick of being pissed about this. For some reason this one particular matter (on Samara) makes me absolutely furious to talk about. To me, it strikes a chord because I'm a police officer and I have to execute law in a way that Samara does, and I spend most of my time by myself in my patrol car, yet I see first hand when new captains are appointed from other agencies where they did not patrol our streets, they have no idea what they're doing and make unreasonable demands and decisions and completely screw things up, yet when someone from within the ranks is promoted to a leadership position (who by your standards is too much of a loner, inexperienced, etc.), things work out great because they know what they're leading. I see this in my job all the time, and to see people do this typical utilitarian calculation of X number of years multiplied by .333 handicap for lone wolf status is less than 2.12412 years of vigilante experience minus .01 for being betrayed and getting everyone killed equals Samara sucks, therefore Garrus knows what he's doing. It's a stupid and horrible way of looking at things like war is a social scientists game or something. Putting people's lives in the hands of woefully inexperienced people because you think of Samara as some kind of like bookish shy asocial person despite her years of experience? It's just dumb. Miranda is the oldest one of the "good leaders" and she's only 35 years old! Right. She's obviously a great choice compared to a multi-century old super commando who's probably fought every alien and every skill set type under the sun and who has enough military discipline to take the life of her own daughter. Yeah, she's just terrible!



But anyways, I'm done. Sorry for being insulting, peace and heart hugs.

[Madecologist]

KainrycKarr wrote...

You don't have to accept their opinions; in fact, continuing to argue does that; it acknowledges and validates their opinion.

He won't change his mind. we won't change our mind. Logically, for both parties, it makes sense to just...stop.

Aye, that I can concur with. Just certain sayings rub me the wrong way. I am odd that way. Eithercase, I stopped. Just clarified something for Naltair and pretty much just responding to you.

Modifié par Madecologist, 18 février 2010 - 09:19 .

[Madecologist]

Double Post... grrrr

Modifié par Madecologist, 18 février 2010 - 09:18 .

[Naltair]

DuffyMJ wrote...

Whatever, I'm sick of being pissed about this. For some reason this one particular matter (on Samara) makes me absolutely furious to talk about. To me, it strikes a chord because I'm a police officer and I have to execute law in a way that Samara does, and I spend most of my time by myself in my patrol car, yet I see first hand when new captains are appointed from other agencies where they did not patrol our streets, they have no idea what they're doing and make unreasonable demands and decisions and completely screw things up, yet when someone from within the ranks is promoted to a leadership position (who by your standards is too much of a loner, inexperienced, etc.), things work out great because they know what they're leading. I see this in my job all the time, and to see people do this typical utilitarian calculation of X number of years multiplied by .333 handicap for lone wolf status is less than 2.12412 years of vigilante experience minus .01 for being betrayed and getting everyone killed equals Samara sucks, therefore Garrus knows what he's doing. It's a stupid and horrible way of looking at things like war is a social scientists game or something. Putting people's lives in the hands of woefully inexperienced people because you think of Samara as some kind of like bookish shy asocial person despite her years of experience? It's just dumb. Miranda is the oldest one of the "good leaders" and she's only 35 years old! Right. She's obviously a great choice compared to a multi-century old super commando who's probably fought every alien and every skill set type under the sun and who has enough military discipline to take the life of her own daughter. Yeah, she's just terrible!

But anyways, I'm done. Sorry for being insulting, peace and heart hugs.

No worries.

As an aside it seems you are projecting your job frustrations onto the characters which would explain your reluctance to change your stance.  I am not dissing Samara I think she is awesome, I just don't think she makes the absolute best choice for that particular role.

[DuffyMJ]

Madecologist wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

You don't have to accept their opinions; in fact, continuing to argue does that; it acknowledges and validates their opinion.

He won't change his mind. we won't change our mind. Logically, for both parties, it makes sense to just...stop.

Aye, that I can concur with. Just certain sayings rub me the wrong way. I am odd that way. Eithercase, I stopped. Just clarified something for Naltair and pretty much just responding to you.

I'm not sorry for insulting you, though. You're just obnoxious and overly smug and snarky, and I have no respect for that.

[KainrycKarr]

DuffyMJ wrote...

Madecologist wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

You don't have to accept their opinions; in fact, continuing to argue does that; it acknowledges and validates their opinion.

He won't change his mind. we won't change our mind. Logically, for both parties, it makes sense to just...stop.

Aye, that I can concur with. Just certain sayings rub me the wrong way. I am odd that way. Eithercase, I stopped. Just clarified something for Naltair and pretty much just responding to you.

I'm not sorry for insulting you, though. You're just obnoxious and overly smug and snarky, and I have no respect for that.

Rawr.

[Madecologist]

For Christ sake.. stop with the personal attacks. Don't worry, the feeling is mutual. Last Post.

Modifié par Madecologist, 18 février 2010 - 09:23 .

[DuffyMJ]

Madecologist wrote...

For Christ sake.. stop with the personal attacks. Don't worry, the feeling is mutual. Last Post.

Fine... for now... :devil:

[AtreiyaN7]

Samara works completely alone, and people who work alone generally don't do a whole lot of team-leading. You have other, better candidates to lead the fire teams, etc.

[Xanfaus]

Naltair wrote...

True but that is just a consequence of a poor decision.  It isn't exactly reality it's a game consequence of making a wrong decision.  It's the game telling you there is a better choice to get that particular job done.

Yeah I get that. I am just saying the game is not very consistent with its own logic. Its not like people are saying that a ruthless, psychotic mercenary or a tankbred berserker krogan should be capable of leading a squad. Sure Garrus or Jacob might be better than Samara, but Miranda, one of the game's choices for sqaud leader, seems to approve of Samara. Also, I understand that she's a bit of a loner but I don't think that translates directly into her being too incompetent to know how to call for something as basic as cover fire.

[Okkomon]

DuffyMJ wrote...

Whatever, I'm sick of being pissed about this. For some reason this one particular matter (on Samara) makes me absolutely furious to talk about. To me, it strikes a chord because I'm a police officer and I have to execute law in a way that Samara does, and I spend most of my time by myself in my patrol car, yet I see first hand when new captains are appointed from other agencies where they did not patrol our streets, they have no idea what they're doing and make unreasonable demands and decisions and completely screw things up, yet when someone from within the ranks is promoted to a leadership position (who by your standards is too much of a loner, inexperienced, etc.), things work out great because they know what they're leading. I see this in my job all the time, and to see people do this typical utilitarian calculation of X number of years multiplied by .333 handicap for lone wolf status is less than 2.12412 years of vigilante experience minus .01 for being betrayed and getting everyone killed equals Samara sucks, therefore Garrus knows what he's doing. It's a stupid and horrible way of looking at things like war is a social scientists game or something. Putting people's lives in the hands of woefully inexperienced people because you think of Samara as some kind of like bookish shy asocial person despite her years of experience? It's just dumb. Miranda is the oldest one of the "good leaders" and she's only 35 years old! Right. She's obviously a great choice compared to a multi-century old super commando who's probably fought every alien and every skill set type under the sun and who has enough military discipline to take the life of her own daughter. Yeah, she's just terrible!

But anyways, I'm done. Sorry for being insulting, peace and heart hugs.

Don't let this crap get to your cap officer, just a game after all... yeah i know, i know, and the same **** is everywhere, but i understand the pressure especially in job like yours . Just don't go renegade out there.

*salute*

[DuffyMJ]

Okkomon wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

Whatever, I'm sick of being pissed about this. For some reason this one particular matter (on Samara) makes me absolutely furious to talk about. To me, it strikes a chord because I'm a police officer and I have to execute law in a way that Samara does, and I spend most of my time by myself in my patrol car, yet I see first hand when new captains are appointed from other agencies where they did not patrol our streets, they have no idea what they're doing and make unreasonable demands and decisions and completely screw things up, yet when someone from within the ranks is promoted to a leadership position (who by your standards is too much of a loner, inexperienced, etc.), things work out great because they know what they're leading. I see this in my job all the time, and to see people do this typical utilitarian calculation of X number of years multiplied by .333 handicap for lone wolf status is less than 2.12412 years of vigilante experience minus .01 for being betrayed and getting everyone killed equals Samara sucks, therefore Garrus knows what he's doing. It's a stupid and horrible way of looking at things like war is a social scientists game or something. Putting people's lives in the hands of woefully inexperienced people because you think of Samara as some kind of like bookish shy asocial person despite her years of experience? It's just dumb. Miranda is the oldest one of the "good leaders" and she's only 35 years old! Right. She's obviously a great choice compared to a multi-century old super commando who's probably fought every alien and every skill set type under the sun and who has enough military discipline to take the life of her own daughter. Yeah, she's just terrible!

But anyways, I'm done. Sorry for being insulting, peace and heart hugs.

Don't let this crap get to your cap officer, just a game after all... yeah i know, i know, and the same **** is everywhere, but i understand the pressure especially in job like yours . Just don't go renegade out there.

*salute*

I've actually been waiting to use the line "I've had enough of these disingenuous assertions!!" with an angry person during traffic stops, probably won't be falcon-punching them though... 

[Naltair]

Xanfaus wrote...

Naltair wrote...

True but that is just a consequence of a poor decision.  It isn't exactly reality it's a game consequence of making a wrong decision.  It's the game telling you there is a better choice to get that particular job done.

Yeah I get that. I am just saying the game is not very consistent with its own logic. Its not like people are saying that a ruthless, psychotic mercenary or a tankbred berserker krogan should be capable of leading a squad. Sure Garrus or Jacob might be better than Samara, but Miranda, one of the game's choices for sqaud leader, seems to approve of Samara. Also, I understand that she's a bit of a loner but I don't think that translates directly into her being too incompetent to know how to call for something as basic as cover fire.

I agree, but I guess I always got the idea was Miranda was competent.

Though I will add she has nothing but bad advice for the final mission besides saying she can lead.  Well she does does say that Jacob does not make a good choice for the vents.

[Computron2000]

Naltair wrote...
I agree, but I guess I always got the idea was Miranda was competent.

Though I will add she has nothing but bad advice for the final mission besides saying she can lead.  Well she does does say that Jacob does not make a good choice for the vents.

She also notes that Tali is a poor team leader, shown in getting her team killed, which is also true

[Naltair]

Computron2000 wrote...

Naltair wrote...
I agree, but I guess I always got the idea was Miranda was competent.

Though I will add she has nothing but bad advice for the final mission besides saying she can lead.  Well she does does say that Jacob does not make a good choice for the vents.

She also notes that Tali is a poor team leader, shown in getting her team killed, which is also true

I guess I am just thinking of her "any biotic can do it" statement.

Silly Miranda.

I still love her to death, she is one of my fave squadmates, and not in a romantic way.

[Xanfaus]

Naltair wrote...

I agree, but I guess I always got the idea was Miranda was competent.

Though I will add she has nothing but bad advice for the final mission besides saying she can lead.  Well she does does say that Jacob does not make a good choice for the vents.

Either way, at least some of the frustration on this issue could be lessened if Bioware allowed us to save BEFORE picking specialists instead of watching an unskippable seven minute sequence. 

[Okkomon]

DuffyMJ wrote...

Okkomon wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

Whatever, I'm sick of being pissed about this. For some reason this one particular matter (on Samara) makes me absolutely furious to talk about. To me, it strikes a chord because I'm a police officer and I have to execute law in a way that Samara does, and I spend most of my time by myself in my patrol car, yet I see first hand when new captains are appointed from other agencies where they did not patrol our streets, they have no idea what they're doing and make unreasonable demands and decisions and completely screw things up, yet when someone from within the ranks is promoted to a leadership position (who by your standards is too much of a loner, inexperienced, etc.), things work out great because they know what they're leading. I see this in my job all the time, and to see people do this typical utilitarian calculation of X number of years multiplied by .333 handicap for lone wolf status is less than 2.12412 years of vigilante experience minus .01 for being betrayed and getting everyone killed equals Samara sucks, therefore Garrus knows what he's doing. It's a stupid and horrible way of looking at things like war is a social scientists game or something. Putting people's lives in the hands of woefully inexperienced people because you think of Samara as some kind of like bookish shy asocial person despite her years of experience? It's just dumb. Miranda is the oldest one of the "good leaders" and she's only 35 years old! Right. She's obviously a great choice compared to a multi-century old super commando who's probably fought every alien and every skill set type under the sun and who has enough military discipline to take the life of her own daughter. Yeah, she's just terrible!

But anyways, I'm done. Sorry for being insulting, peace and heart hugs.

Don't let this crap get to your cap officer, just a game after all... yeah i know, i know, and the same **** is everywhere, but i understand the pressure especially in job like yours . Just don't go renegade out there.

*salute*

I've actually been waiting to use the line "I've had enough of these disingenuous assertions!!" with an angry person during traffic stops, probably won't be falcon-punching them though... 

Heh, we all have those moments. What makes us more is that we don't act on a whim, but consider, and use our brain to consider.

You'll do well, just don't make me cite Nietche, or i'll come and kick your ass for staring too long into it.

Modifié par Okkomon, 18 février 2010 - 09:43 .

[Okkomon]

...Back to the topic. Uhm, back to the issues regarding the topic.

So, concensus is, all are fine that Shepards background as sole survior is all ok to suck all the cerberus there is and the team mates should suck it and swallow it too because shepard does? Options are great and anyone disagreeing should STFU?

Modifié par Okkomon, 18 février 2010 - 10:18 .

[jklinders]

DuffyMJ wrote...

Naltair wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...
That's ridiculous, though, you can only say that in hindsight.

Going into the mission, you have no idea what you're facing.  For all you know, half the colonists could be indoctrinated and thrown against you in waves.   You really think Garrus has the mental state to deal with that kind of scenerio, or any kind of highly emotional scenerio?

I sure as **** don't...  You know who would be  able to deal with that, though?  A stoic, disciplined, highly experienced Justicar. 

When you're going into the unknown you want someone COOL HEADED.  in that regard, i actually think miranda is decent, but she is handicapped by the lack of trust of squadmates. 

The fact is, the mechanic should have been more complicated.  Miranda should have been a good leader EXCEPT if she was placed in charge of a team with jack or tali or other anti-cerebus types in it.  Jacob shou-ld have been a good one EXCEPT if thane was in his group... is that SO ungodly unreasonable for me to suggest? Am I really such a horrible, blatantly wrong person for seeing Samara's exceptionally valuable skillset and competence and the defects of precious garrus?

You make points for saying ti could have been more complex, I agree it could have been.  For what it is and tries to do, it is quite good already, with all the posts of why random people die as is, there is already quite bit of complexity.

I still don't agree that Samara is a good choice as a leader, she is an awesome specialist though and combatant and probably a strong choice for Holding the Line; but nothing in her dialogs or backgrounds scream out I am leader material.  I have to agree with others based on experience, knowledge, and actual information that Miranda, Garrus, or Jacob make better choices. Each has lead and worked with people in varying capacities and knows to put the team and mission before themselves.

There is no set de facto leadership style, and each will do the job "differently" from an RP standpoint but each will get the job done.  I just don;t see that with Samara no matter how old she is, I would not put her in command, that just isn't a good fit for her.   She is a honed weapon of justice, focused and dedicated but I think perhaps too inflexible to have the ability to think on her feet and keep others alive.

She may be caring but that does not equate to a strong leader.

You can't deny the value of having a stoic/code-strict and disciplined person in charge in a completely volatile and unpredictable situation, in my opinion.  When you're going into the 7th circle of hell you want to be with someone ice cold and stoic to the bone. 

I can and will, because being cool under fire STILL does not translate to good leadership. Let's go back to that whole I have spent the last 400 years a solitary hermit shall we?

[jklinders]

DuffyMJ wrote...

Naltair wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...
Because the quality called for in the mission before the selection is "You need to pick someone who can command loyalty through experience"  not "you need to pick someone with 'leadership experience'"

By far and large, Samara is witnessed to have the most experience (more than everyone's lifetime combined) and to command more loyalty (god-like reverence to the asari people)  she is also THE ONLY squad member that no one has a problem with or expresses any doubt about in any fashion whatsoever! 

I need a leader I am choosing the best one, and Samara is not it.  Samara has a crap ton of experience but that does not make her any better a leader for it.  It makes her a good person to have she may knowledge about a variety of crazy situations but I need a leader that can assess data, make decisions and ultimately keep my team alive.

I don;t care if she has been to more worlds then I can count, killed more mercs than anyone else, and seen everything.  If she can;t communicate that and leader effectively it does not matter.  I need an EFFECTIVE leader, not just experienced.

That's not what the mission called for.. it specifically called for the ability to command loyalty through experience.

Actually that is how Miranda describes it. Why are you trusting her judgement all of a sudden?

[wako58]

I like the Samara character alot but I have to agree with Naltair on this one. Samara tells you as much when she first comes on the Normandy. She hasn't traveled with a group of people in a long time. She's spent the last few hundred years of her life out on her own hunting down her daughter. Her history doesn't indicate she's had leadership experience when she talks to Shep about her life before becoming a justicar. Also now that she's a justicar even other asari are uneasy around her. The police chief on Illium even warns you to be careful around her because of her strict justicar code. The whole dialogue, back story, and other npc interactions say this character is a loner.

Yes she's got a lot of great experience that's true, but every great player doesn't become a great coach.

Modifié par wako58, 19 février 2010 - 12:20 .

[CC-Tron]

challenger18 wrote...

T0paze wrote...

challenger18 wrote...

Madecologist wrote...

Miranda is a good leader and a vigilant guardian. Her write up says it clearly. Also her class combat skill shows it too. Tactitian or Leader. But if you hate her, you have another choice. Garrus. This guy lead a team of 12 mercs and managed to ****** off all of Omega. He is a great Leader. Oh he got his squad kill, that was not a leadership mistake.. he was betrayed by his own teammate leaving the rest of the team without their leader. So they died because was not there! The mistake was from an internal betrayel. So you do not need to worry about either of that at the suicide mission.
Honestly you can't hold it against him and his leadership skills, nor would Shepard be in a position to talk. He died.

That's another point. The game pretty much tells you all you need to know. I noticed on a second playthrough when I was actually reading her personal class skill bonus that it mentions her being the leader of the Fire team, which is the second squad name in the suicide mission.

Actually. reading those descriptions may, as I mentioned, lead you to think that Jacob is a good choice for creating and maintaining a barrier, while he's not. So, that's not so simple.

I never had that impression with Jacob. Sorry, but they explained that maintaining a barrier seemed like a very intesnive thing that involves concentration and high biotic ability. Jacob doesn't have high biotic ability.

Yeah but Jacob has the heavy barrier skill. No other biotic team member has that skill. He should be the practical choice.

[Naltair]

CC-Tron wrote...
Yeah but Jacob has the heavy barrier skill. No other biotic team member has that skill. He should be the practical choice.

Good point but he isn't a powerful biotic, he is a biotic soldier and asari are typically the most powerful biotics.  Jack is some crazy powerful wildcard, a one in a million shot, that seems to just pulse with biotic power.  Jacob has better uses elsewhere, being the big bad biotic is not it.

Modifié par Naltair, 19 février 2010 - 12:51 .