250 réponses à ce sujet

[Okkomon]

Jigero wrote...

Okkomon wrote...

Jigero wrote...

SOLO COMBAT. key word, if you had hundreds of years experience as a carpenter, does that mean your suddenly good at plumbing too?

Does miranda have it so much better then? Other than it's set so in game mechanic or rather than what is obvious by the same logic we could apply to Samara that is not leading cerberus agents hypnotized by oogling her ass.

Yes, Miranda is a high ranking offier with in Cereberus, she was in charge of recovering shepard and in charge of the Lazerus Project, She's been in a place of authority even before that, Samara has not.

Not really a field combat experience there, not to mention we are not running a mission of loyal Cerberus pawns as I mentioned.

[chubert]

So I keep hearing about people saying someone died and that they will have to try things different on their next playthrough. Well doesnt anyone save before the Omega 4 Relay? I mean launch suicide mission should give you a hint to save before it.

[flem1]

Jigero wrote...

Yes, Miranda is a high ranking offier with in Cereberus, she was in charge of recovering shepard and in charge of the Lazerus Project,

She did so well that she was betrayed by the main scientist and had almost everyone there killed by the project's own mechs.

Most of these threads tend to be complaints about Miranda's leadership working, and I think there's something to that.  It would be a bit harsh to have only Garrus and Jacob work, but then you only get two good choices in the other speciality jobs as well.

[Cutlass Jack]

chubert wrote...

So I keep hearing about people saying someone died and that they will have to try things different on their next playthrough. Well doesnt anyone save before the Omega 4 Relay? I mean launch suicide mission should give you a hint to save before it.

Heh. Don't even need to do that much. Can just use the 'Restart Mission' autosave.

[IndomitusRex]

Okkomon wrote...

Jigero wrote...

SOLO COMBAT. key word, if you had hundreds of years experience as a carpenter, does that mean your suddenly good at plumbing too?

Does miranda have it so much better then? Other than it's set so in game mechanic or rather than what is obvious by the same logic we could apply to Samara that is not leading cerberus agents hypnotized by oogling her ass.

I think it's fair to assume that Miranda didn't gain her position (second-in-command of the SR-2 Normandy, director of the Lazarus Project, and attache to the Illusive Man) purely on the wiggle of her butt.  Her passive class power is all about improving your squad through leadership abilities.

And besides, the purpose of the suicide mission's different segments is to give different characters a chance to shine (according to Bioware at least).  Tech Experts get the solo tunnel run (Tali, Legion, not sure who else can survive it), the first fire team showcases leadership (Miranda, Jacob, Garrus), the biotic escort is for... biotics (Samara and Jack are obvious choices, not sure if Miranda, Jacob or Thane can handle it), and holding the line at the end is for your soldiers (Grunt, Zaeed, Garrus).  There's some squad members who can shine in a couple spots, but none that are good for everything.

[Basher of Glory]

Okkomon wrote...

InvaderErl wrote...

She's a solo fighter. She tells you she's not used to working with others. There's more to leading than just one's personal combat prowess.

True, but you dismissed anything else we have learned about her, other than she works alone being justicar. Miranda i believe in your mind is great leader  ibelieve? Social skills of ice queen, and an attitude of self centered 'i'm the best there is', that's your pick of a squad leader?

I totally agree with you. Miranda is that kind of "leader" who dies first, when combat starts - by a shot in the back.

I guess, the game mechanics are set up for either Garrus, Jacob or Miranda, despite their individual stories (following those, I'd rather put Grunt in charge).

[Sabre120]

Samara herself states she has not had 'friends' or companions for over 400 years, her solitary combat style means that she can not lead the team effectively, it is not just about being tactically aware, it is also about being able to socialise and cooperate with your team mates

[Shipwr3K]

Okkomon wrote...

Jigero wrote...

Okkomon wrote...

Jigero wrote...

SOLO COMBAT. key word, if you had hundreds of years experience as a carpenter, does that mean your suddenly good at plumbing too?

Does miranda have it so much better then? Other than it's set so in game mechanic or rather than what is obvious by the same logic we could apply to Samara that is not leading cerberus agents hypnotized by oogling her ass.

I though miranda and jacob saved the citadel from a batarian biological attack. 

Yes, Miranda is a high ranking offier with in Cereberus, she was in charge of recovering shepard and in charge of the Lazerus Project, She's been in a place of authority even before that, Samara has not.

Not really a field combat experience there, not to mention we are not running a mission of loyal Cerberus pawns as I mentioned.

[challenger18]

flem1 wrote...

Jigero wrote...

Yes, Miranda is a high ranking offier with in Cereberus, she was in charge of recovering shepard and in charge of the Lazerus Project,

She did so well that she was betrayed by the main scientist and had almost everyone there killed by the project's own mechs.

Most of these threads tend to be complaints about Miranda's leadership working, and I think there's something to that.  It would be a bit harsh to have only Garrus and Jacob work, but then you only get two good choices in the other speciality jobs as well.

That's not fair. How about Sidonis for Garrus? It was the same thing.  So by that logic only Jacob would have been the correct choice. With Miranda, I think it mostly has to do with keeping her loyalty after completing her and Jacks loyalty missions. If you don't have her loyalty, as with anyone else, you shouldn't appoint them to do an important task.

[Okkomon]

chubert wrote...

So I keep hearing about people saying someone died and that they will have to try things different on their next playthrough. Well doesnt anyone save before the Omega 4 Relay? I mean launch suicide mission should give you a hint to save before it.

We are discussing about an issue regarding game design and such nonsense, not how to load a game. Thanks for your input nonetheless.

[Okkomon]

Sabre120 wrote...

Samara herself states she has not had 'friends' or companions for over 400 years, her solitary combat style means that she can not lead the team effectively, it is not just about being tactically aware, it is also about being able to socialise and cooperate with your team mates

Good point, i accept the reasoning that she only sees things as a solitude single entity in her current path (even as weak it is), but i still feel a lack of reason on many regards here considering  the comparisons as i have explained.

Modifié par Okkomon, 18 février 2010 - 06:57 .

[T0paze]

Samara?

I'd never think she's a good leader. She's a justicar, which means that she fights alone.

Garrus is a natural choice. I wasn't sure about Miranda or Jacob.

There's a slight problem when choosing someone to maintain a biotic barrier. You'd think that Samara and Jack are ideal choices, and you'd be right. However, a slight confusion of terms creates a problem here. The thing is, you need to create a barrier, and Barrier is... right, Jacob's bonus skill. So, it could be assumed that he is a solid choice; in reality, however, he isn't.

[Madecologist]

Miranda is a good leader and a vigilant guardian. Her write up says it clearly. Also her class combat skill shows it too. Tactitian or Leader. But if you hate her, you have another choice. Garrus. This guy lead a team of 12 mercs and managed to ****** off all of Omega. He is a great Leader. Oh he got his squad kill, that was not a leadership mistake.. he was betrayed by his own teammate leaving the rest of the team without their leader. So they died because was not there! The mistake was from an internal betrayel. So you do not need to worry about either of that at the suicide mission.

Honestly you can't hold it against him and his leadership skills, nor would Shepard be in a position to talk. He died.

[Urazz]

Okkomon wrote...

InvaderErl wrote...

She's a solo fighter. She tells you she's not used to working with others. There's more to leading than just one's personal combat prowess.

True, but you dismissed anything else we have learned about her, other than she works alone being justicar. Miranda i believe in your mind is great leader  ibelieve? Social skills of ice queen, and an attitude of self centered 'i'm the best there is', that's your pick of a squad leader?

There's more to it than that.
 
Miranda has experience leading Cerberus cells so she does have the experience of leading people.  She's also 2nd in command of the ship.  If she was a crappy leader then the Illusive Man would've never put her in charge of  various projects and Cerberus missions in the past.  Not saying she's a great leader or anything but she is good enough of one to serve as a team leader during the final mission.

Jacob, while he may not have much command experience is trained in tactics and leadership and other than Thane initially, is basically trusted by everyone to some extent.  Hell even Jack doesn't hate him like she does Miranda.

Garrus is the one with the most battlefield command experience asides from Shepard himself/herself.  He ran his own squad fighting the mercenary groups on Omega for nearly two years before he was betrayed and also has experience fighting enemies with the odds against him.

Noone else in the group has had command experience after that with the possible exception of Mordin but I would think his experience as a leader is as spy ops mostly and lab projects, not combat.

Of the 3 squad leaders for the final mission though, I would rank them as:

1. Garrus
2. Miranda
3. Jacob

T0paze wrote...

Samara?
I'd never think she's a good leader. She's a justicar, which means that she fights alone.
Garrus is a natural choice. I wasn't sure about Miranda or Jacob.
There's a slight problem when choosing someone to maintain a biotic barrier. You'd think that Samara and Jack are ideal choices, and you'd be right. However, a slight confusion of terms creates a problem here. The thing is, you need to create a barrier, and Barrier is... right, Jacob's bonus skill. So, it could be assumed that he is a solid choice; in reality, however, he isn't.

Yeah, but it's not the barrier of ME1 or even the type of barrier made in the mission.  It is a personal barrier to his body.  You can't go by class skills characters have.

Modifié par Urazz, 18 février 2010 - 07:04 .

[jklinders]

Jacob and Garrus' background both show an emphasis in leadership and small unit tactics. Miranda seems to have it as a matter of theory, which can work if you are sufficiently intelligent and assertive.



You don't have to be popular to be a good officer, but you do need major leadership ability, which includes the correct way to get your team moving the rifght way at the right time. Miranda's passive ability shows she has it, Garrus and Jacob have it from their military background. Zaeed had a tendency to get his teams killed. Would not want him in charge. Samara may have some theory but no experience.



No other team member has a background to show leadership.



PS, I know Miranda comes across as a ***** but why is this bothering you so much?

[Okkomon]

T0paze wrote...

Samara?
I'd never think she's a good leader. She's a justicar, which means that she fights alone.
Garrus is a natural choice. I wasn't sure about Miranda or Jacob.
There's a slight problem when choosing someone to maintain a biotic barrier. You'd think that Samara and Jack are ideal choices, and you'd be right. However, a slight confusion of terms creates a problem here. The thing is, you need to create a barrier, and Barrier is... right, Jacob's bonus skill. So, it could be assumed that he is a solid choice; in reality, however, he isn't.

My intial choice to pick her (on my first run), was that she understands combat and discipline in those situations, my characters trust for cerberus is not in that much of religious trust, but due to game mechanics even playing sole survivor spacer it must be, or else. I should of notice i wasn't playing RPG with logic.

Modifié par Okkomon, 18 février 2010 - 07:06 .

[Llandaryn]

Okkomon wrote...

chubert wrote...

So I keep hearing about people saying someone died and that they will have to try things different on their next playthrough. Well doesnt anyone save before the Omega 4 Relay? I mean launch suicide mission should give you a hint to save before it.

We are discussing about an issue regarding game design and such nonsense, not how to load a game. Thanks for your input nonetheless.

Dude, if a bunch of us were going on a suicide mission right now, I wouldn't put you as squad leader either.

[Tusbat]

Baher of Glory wrote...


I totally agree with you. Miranda is that kind of "leader" who dies first, when combat starts - by a shot in the back.

I guess, the game mechanics are set up for either Garrus, Jacob or Miranda, despite their individual stories (following those, I'd rather put Grunt in charge).

Correction: game mechanics are set up for Garrus, Jacob or Miranda because of their individual stories. Miranda is accustomed to being team leader in Cerberus, Jacob has alliance history with a squad, and Garrus had his own crew. You can deduce these just from the game story which is quite a nice perk for those who give attention.

Modifié par Tusbat, 18 février 2010 - 07:07 .

[Tusbat]

sorry, double post.

Modifié par Tusbat, 18 février 2010 - 07:07 .

[T0paze]

There's no way I'd let Miranda to lead a team if Jack was part of that team, leadership or no. Garrus is a neutral choice here - he doesn't have any enemies and he can lead, too.

[Basher of Glory]

KorPhaeron11 wrote...

Baher of Glory wrote...

Okkomon wrote...

InvaderErl wrote...

She's a solo fighter. She tells you she's not used to working with others. There's more to leading than just one's personal combat prowess.

True, but you dismissed anything else we have learned about her, other than she works alone being justicar. Miranda i believe in your mind is great leader  ibelieve? Social skills of ice queen, and an attitude of self centered 'i'm the best there is', that's your pick of a squad leader?

I totally agree with you. Miranda is that kind of "leader" who dies first, when combat starts - by a shot in the back.

I guess, the game mechanics are set up for either Garrus, Jacob or Miranda, despite their individual stories (following those, I'd rather put Grunt in charge).

"Miranda i believe in your mind is great leader  ibelieve? Social skills of ice queen, and an attitude of self centered 'i'm the best there is', that's your pick of a squad leader?"

These are they things said by the guy who tryed to kill you and everyone on the station, and you belived him?

Im sure you also thought that Ted Bundy was innocent then he said so at his trial right

Although reading this post over and over again, I can't find out, what the poster (text yellow) wants to tell me. Can someone help?

Modifié par Baher of Glory, 18 février 2010 - 07:11 .

[Llandaryn]

jklinders wrote...

You don't have to be popular to be a good officer, but you do need major leadership ability, which includes the correct way to get your team moving the rifght way at the right time. Miranda's passive ability shows she has it, Garrus and Jacob have it from their military background. Zaeed had a tendency to get his teams killed. Would not want him in charge. Samara may have some theory but no experience.

I tend to look at it from the 'success' point of view.

Sure, Miranda may have been betrayed by her lead scientist, and most of her team ended up dead at the hands of re-programmed mechs, but she succeesed in her mission; she brought Shepard back.

Garrus succeeded in his mission to completely destablise the balance of power amongst the merc groups on Omega, and he took a lot of them out in the process. Sure, he got betrayed in the end and his team died, but he got a lot done in 6 months.

Samara -- after 400 years, still chasing the same criminal. Maybe if she was tactically minded, she would have thuoght of using some poor Shepard-like sap as bait 399 years ago.

[challenger18]

Madecologist wrote...

Miranda is a good leader and a vigilant guardian. Her write up says it clearly. Also her class combat skill shows it too. Tactitian or Leader. But if you hate her, you have another choice. Garrus. This guy lead a team of 12 mercs and managed to ****** off all of Omega. He is a great Leader. Oh he got his squad kill, that was not a leadership mistake.. he was betrayed by his own teammate leaving the rest of the team without their leader. So they died because was not there! The mistake was from an internal betrayel. So you do not need to worry about either of that at the suicide mission.
Honestly you can't hold it against him and his leadership skills, nor would Shepard be in a position to talk. He died.

That's another point. The game pretty much tells you all you need to know. I noticed on a second playthrough when I was actually reading her personal class skill bonus that it mentions her being the leader of the Fire team, which is the second squad name in the suicide mission.

[T0paze]

Tusbat wrote...

Baher of Glory wrote...


I totally agree with you. Miranda is that kind of "leader" who dies first, when combat starts - by a shot in the back.

I guess, the game mechanics are set up for either Garrus, Jacob or Miranda, despite their individual stories (following those, I'd rather put Grunt in charge).

Correction: game mechanics are set up for Garrus, Jacob or Miranda because of their individual stories. Miranda is accustomed to being team leader in Cerberus, Jacob has alliance history with a squad, and Garrus had his own crew. You can deduce these just from the game story which is quite a nice perk for those who give attention.

Hmm, one could argue that Mordin has that kind of experience, too. He lead an STG team, after all, and not only during the research phase, but also during the deployment, which, as he said, involved combat.

Modifié par T0paze, 18 février 2010 - 07:13 .