250 réponses à ce sujet

[KainrycKarr]

KainrycKarr wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

Remaix wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

Okay, people are retarded. Why is Garrus a good group leader? because his fighting experience is, WITH GROUPS. His merc group died WHEN HE WAS NOT THERE. HE WAS BETRAYED.

You go ahead and let me know when you can keep people alive when that happens.

Why is Miranda a good tactician? Because that is how she is TRAINED. She is an OFFICER. Regardless of actual personality. And, by the way, I hate Miranda. But it is what it is.

Jacob? There is some argument there. Not that experience, and the only squad training he'd have, is in the alliance, on eden prime, which, as mentioned, didnt have much going on.

So, Garrus and Miranda are logical choices. Jacob?...Eh, Bioware thinks so.

Samara is very deadly, and has fought a lot. But not in a group setting. Not in a squad. By herself.

You don't take a sniper and put him in charge of combat engineering.

Both jobs have combat experience, BUT DO NOT HAVE THE SAME TRAINING IN COMBAT.

Why is it so hard to understand?

The Garrus issue is as simple as this:  he was betrayed and not present during the ambush, yes.

 But let me point something out to you.  The reason he was vulerable to such betrayal is because hot-headedness and blood lust managed the remarkably incompetent feat of driving THREE RIVAL MERC GROUPS to become ALLIES in their quest to erradicate him, unified their resources, their efforts, and their subterfuge.  Garrus is a great leader in the same way Kim Jong Il is a great leader: he built a following, but managed to ****** off literally everyone to the point where his and his men's lives were under constant siege and attrition.

Garrus has immense hubris issues, it's undeniable.  And I cannot think of a worse person to lead a squad against an unknown enemy in uncharted ground against an unknown target against an enemy of unknown strength than Garrus.

Someone please counterargue these points and stop this whole "yeah but but... he was betrayed!" excuse making B.S.

You're obviously missing the point that Garrus managed to keep his whole squad alive until the betrayal. If he really was such a terrible leader, as you are saying, his squad wouldn't have lasted that long. They'd have died a whole lot sooner.
Now, I'd like to say one thing: I agree with one thing you're saying. Garrus was, indeed, too hot-headed. It was very, very, very stupid of him to ****** off three merc groups. But that's a different situation. The leadership role during the suicide mission is different than that. It tested his ability to keep people alive. It did not test his ability to not ****** off the wrong people.

That's ridiculous, though, you can only say that in hindsight.

Going into the mission, you have no idea what you're facing.  For all you know, half the colonists could be indoctrinated and thrown against you in waves.   You really think Garrus has the mental state to deal with that kind of scenerio, or any kind of highly emotional scenerio?

I sure as **** don't...  You know who would be  able to deal with that, though?  A stoic, disciplined, highly experienced Justicar. 

When you're going into the unknown you want someone COOL HEADED.  in that regard, i actually think miranda is decent, but she is handicapped by the lack of trust of squadmates. 

The fact is, the mechanic should have been more complicated.  Miranda should have been a good leader EXCEPT if she was placed in charge of a team with jack or tali or other anti-cerebus types in it.  Jacob shou-ld have been a good one EXCEPT if thane was in his group... is that SO ungodly unreasonable for me to suggest? Am I really such a horrible, blatantly wrong person for seeing Samara's exceptionally valuable skillset and competence and the defects of precious garrus?

I was under the impression Justicars couldn't kill innocents. Of course, that would conflict with Shepard's orders, and Samara being bound to Shepard's will....

I'd say that's conflict.

The fact of the matter is that NOONE is a perfect match for leading the team...except Shepard.

Garrus, Miranda, and Jacob have the raw training and experience with group fighting is directly relevant to leading and coordinating a team and it's attack.

Samara's raw power and "stoic coolness" do not directly relate, nor translate, to being a leader that can keep people alive.

It does, however, translate to her being good in the situation of say, the Ruthless Shepard background where Shepard get's everyone killed, but gets the job done nonetheless.

Can Samara get the job done? Absolutely. without a doubt.

Can she do it and keep everyone alive while doing so? Most likely not.

No insults or hypocrisy about Nihlus. just lookin' for a response.

[DuffyMJ]

KainrycKarr wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

I have never seen a larger bunch of hypocrites. You do nothing but whine about Garrus being betrayed and it's not his fault, and you argue Nihlus died because he was a loner and COMPLETELY WHITE-WASH the fact that he was betrayed by a friend and fellow spectre?

What a joke.

I am not arguing that. nihlus died because he got betrayed. he was just as screwed as Garrus was.

However, he even says he is better on his own.

And as you say, samara being stoic and cool DOES make her good for getting the job done.

But it DOESN'T make her good for getting the job done AND keeping the team alive in doing it. They are two separate things.

And Garrus says "I got my team killed, I was responsible" So can we stop with this subjective application of quotes and actions?

How come when Samara says "I'm not used to people" or whatever she says you all take that SOOOOO to heart, but when Garrus says "I got my whole team killed" you all sudenly say "oh he resolved that in his quest DUH you lose how can't you know that?" and use your hindsight justifications?  Give me a break.

Samara DOESN'T get the job doen when she leads though! SHE dies, not her team! That's why the whole thing is so ridiculous.

[Naltair]

DuffyMJ wrote...
You can't deny the value of having a stoic/code-strict and disciplined person in charge in a completely volatile and unpredictable situation, in my opinion.  When you're going into the 7th circle of hell you want to be with someone ice cold and stoic to the bone. 

Of course I want people I can trust but being the ultimate leader of the group it's my job to focus the abilities and talents in the areas I beleive they are the BEST at.

This isn't a time for well you have the skills and technically you could possibly be a good fit for this.

No their lives are in my hand, it's my job to make that trust matter and make sure I make the right choices to pull this mission off with a minimum of casualty.

She is the best biotic and that is what I will use her for, period.  I already have tactical geniuses.  I don;t need another leader, I need the baddest mofo biotic the galaxy can give me.  Stoic or not, that is what I need her for.

She does it well but by knowing her character I know she is not the STRONGEST choice for a leader so if she isn't the strongest choice why would I pick her?

Modifié par Naltair, 18 février 2010 - 08:47 .

[Remaix]

DuffyMJ wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

I have never seen a larger bunch of hypocrites. You do nothing but whine about Garrus being betrayed and it's not his fault, and you argue Nihlus died because he was a loner and COMPLETELY WHITE-WASH the fact that he was betrayed by a friend and fellow spectre?

What a joke.

I am not arguing that. nihlus died because he got betrayed. he was just as screwed as Garrus was.

However, he even says he is better on his own.

And as you say, samara being stoic and cool DOES make her good for getting the job done.

But it DOESN'T make her good for getting the job done AND keeping the team alive in doing it. They are two separate things.

And Garrus says "I got my team killed, I was responsible" So can we stop with this subjective application of quotes and actions?

How come when Samara says "I'm not used to people" or whatever she says you all take that SOOOOO to heart, but when Garrus says "I got my whole team killed" you all sudenly say "oh he resolved that in his quest DUH you lose how can't you know that?" and use your hindsight justifications?  Give me a break.

Samara DOESN'T get the job doen when she leads though! SHE dies, not her team! That's why the whole thing is so ridiculous.

Mainly because there's evidence to back up Samara's statement, seeing as she has been a lone wolf for four hundred years, but it's very clear that Garrus is just blaming himself for something that was not his fault?

[Okkomon]

StowyMcStowstow wrote...

It's funny how many people don't actually read the paragraph or two they give for each character in the selection screen. Maybe if people took the time to read it (or even better, used common sense) they wouldn't lose people in the final mission.

Look, Samara isn't a good leader because she's works alone, has always worked alone, and after helping you will continue to work alone. She is distant and focused only on the job. She has never led teams, anywhere, ever, at anytime.

Miranda, Jacob, and Garrus have all lead teams in the past. That is why, besides the paragraph saying that they have tactical experience, they make better leaders. Just because Miranda has a nice butt doesn't mean it's what she uses to lead.

Yes but there are other aspects into this as well, concidering this game tries to play out as an RPG of sorts. I mean that would mean some story elements and reasoning and other factors taking place regarding the story. To make it reasonable and solid package. Right?

If you make the effort to read what was posted before you might understand it in more refined point of view.

Modifié par Okkomon, 18 février 2010 - 08:51 .

[Legbiter]

DuffyMJ wrote...

By your logic Nihlus -- a fellow spectre -- is a worse squad leader than an alliance grunt with a couple years experience being a second in command of a research lab space station who's claim to fame is defeating an overweight batarian ambassador from releasing a virus.  Nice.

Yes.

Nihlus would be a terrible fireteam leader. First thing he does in ME1 is ditch you and the squad because as he says "I work better alone".

[DuffyMJ]

Naltair wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...
You can't deny the value of having a stoic/code-strict and disciplined person in charge in a completely volatile and unpredictable situation, in my opinion.  When you're going into the 7th circle of hell you want to be with someone ice cold and stoic to the bone. 

Of course I want people I can trust but being the ultimate leader of the group it's my job to focus the abilities and talents in the areas I beleive they are the BEST at.

This isn't a time for well you have the skills and technically you could possibly be a good fit for this.

No their lives are in my hand, it's my job to make that trust matter and make sure I make the right choices to pull this mission off with a minimum of casualty.

She is the best biotic and that is what I will use her for, period.  I already have tactical geniuses.  I don;t need another leader, I need the baddest mofo biotic the galaxy can give me.  Stoic or not, that is what I need her for.

She does it well but by knowing her character I know she is not the STRONGEST choice for a leader so if she isn't the strongest choice why would I pick her?

Because the quality called for in the mission before the selection is "You need to pick someone who can command loyalty through experience"  not "you need to pick someone with 'leadership experience'"

By far and large, Samara is witnessed to have the most experience (more than everyone's lifetime combined) and to command more loyalty (god-like reverence to the asari people)  she is also THE ONLY squad member that no one has a problem with or expresses any doubt about in any fashion whatsoever! 

[Madecologist]

DuffyMJ wrote...

Ah more excuses, it seems like the entire basis of reality is excuse-making like "oh when I do this it's a meme, it's not offensive."

Ironic that you accuse me of making excuses. The same person that has been spending 7 threads making excuses that Bioware is wrong to make Samara a bad team leader and that we all don't get it. Making excuses why competent leaders are not good leader.

Is the kettle calling the tea pot black?

Also your constant use of the word "reality" in half your comments is making me chuckle.

Lastly, stop being a hypocrit. You say I am offensive for pulling a cheap net joke. Yet you have on many occassion actually insulted people arguing against you directly. Unlike a verbal conversation, and internet arguement has records. You were the first to launch attacks against people arguing against you.

[Computron2000]

DuffyMJ wrote...
And Garrus says "I got my team killed, I was responsible" So can we stop with this subjective application of quotes and actions?

How come when Samara says "I'm not used to people" or whatever she says you all take that SOOOOO to heart, but when Garrus says "I got my whole team killed" you all sudenly say "oh he resolved that in his quest DUH you lose how can't you know that?" and use your hindsight justifications?  Give me a break.

Samara DOESN'T get the job doen when she leads though! SHE dies, not her team! That's why the whole thing is so ridiculous.

As i remember it, she causes the death of the vent tech (even Legion or Tali) if you choose her as the 1st team lead. For the 2nd team, the team lead always dies if they are not a tactician leader. Even military types like Grunt, Zaeed, etc. The lines they say over your communicator when you're doing the biotic shield actually hints at it. Garrus/Miranda/Jacob all give morale boosting comments while the others, well, run a save game and take a listen. I find Legion's hilarious

[Naltair]

DuffyMJ wrote...
And Garrus says "I got my team killed, I was responsible" So can we stop with this subjective application of quotes and actions?

Because he didn't?  We know from his Loyalty mission he was sold out by Sidonis, who he trusted.  Sidonis got his team killed not Garrus, they had to betray him because Garrus up to that point was unbeatable.  He was kicking the merc groups asses all over Omega.  His team was kicking back for quite awhile and even though he may have gotten in over his head up to that point he was getting things done.

Sidonis betrayed him and you resolve that betrayal in the Loyalty Mission and Garrus realizes he needs to put that behind him and focus on what he does best.  Being a tactical genius and an all around badass survivor.

[smudgedhorizon]

I chose Zaeed as leader in my attempt to kill everyone, he did a suprisingly good job. Died at the end though. Thane and Tali died before we even landed, Jacob had a vent accident, Garrus died with me, Jack and Mordin died holding the door, I gave Legion to Cerberus, so I ended up with only Miranda (HOW?! I'd really wanted her to die) Samara and Grunt alive with Shep and Joker. I had only done 3 loyalty missions though (Grunt, Samara and Thane) but I had to do those because the main story just would not progress.

Never thought it would be so difficult to kill everyone, it's harder to NOT survive than it was to have everyone survive!

[InvaderErl]

Yeah but Samara has no experience as a leader. Garrus does. End of line. Really.

[InvaderErl]

Turian military training emphasizes the importance of the team and fighting as a unit. Garrus is a maverick but understands the value of teamwork above all else. Hell, he holds off on sexing up FemShep because he doesn't want to hurt group cohesion.

[Naltair]

DuffyMJ wrote...
Because the quality called for in the mission before the selection is "You need to pick someone who can command loyalty through experience"  not "you need to pick someone with 'leadership experience'"

By far and large, Samara is witnessed to have the most experience (more than everyone's lifetime combined) and to command more loyalty (god-like reverence to the asari people)  she is also THE ONLY squad member that no one has a problem with or expresses any doubt about in any fashion whatsoever! 

I need a leader I am choosing the best one, and Samara is not it.  Samara has a crap ton of experience but that does not make her any better a leader for it.  It makes her a good person to have she may knowledge about a variety of crazy situations but I need a leader that can assess data, make decisions and ultimately keep my team alive.

I don't care if she has been to more worlds then I can count, killed more mercs than anyone else, and seen everything.  If she can't communicate that and leader effectively it does not matter.  I need an EFFECTIVE leader, not just experienced.

Modifié par Naltair, 18 février 2010 - 08:57 .

[n2nw]

imported_beer wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...


And Garrus says "I got my team killed, I was responsible" So can we stop with this subjective application of quotes and actions?

Two wrongs don't make a right. 

I never chose Garrus as a leader either. Garrus always struck me as a bit of a `play by my own rules' maverick. Which is why I was shocked to learn that he is considered a good leader in the suicide mission. The same logic I applied to Samara that it is unfair to have a justicaar who relied mostly on herself be compromised by leading a team which will only slow her down. 

I always used Garrus and he never lost anyone.

Edit:  For argument's sake, I realize DMJ was talking about Garrus' former squad mates.  But Garrus didn't lose them in a battle.  He was taken out of the equation and gone when they were killed.

Modifié par n2nw, 18 février 2010 - 08:57 .

[DuffyMJ]

Madecologist wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

Ah more excuses, it seems like the entire basis of reality is excuse-making like "oh when I do this it's a meme, it's not offensive."

Ironic that you accuse me of making excuses. The same person that has been spending 7 threads making excuses that Bioware is wrong to make Samara a bad team leader and that we all don't get it. Making excuses why competent leaders are not good leader.

Is the kettle calling the tea pot black?

Also your constant use of the word "reality" in half your comments is making me chuckle.

Lastly, stop being a hypocrit. You say I am offensive for pulling a cheap net joke. Yet you have on many occassion actually insulted people arguing against you directly. Unlike a verbal conversation, and internet arguement has records. You were the first to launch attacks against people arguing against you.

That's why YOU are a hypocrite, because when I say something it's "offensive and insulting" but when you do it "hey chill out man, it's just a meme, it's just joking around".

[DuffyMJ]

Naltair wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...
Because the quality called for in the mission before the selection is "You need to pick someone who can command loyalty through experience"  not "you need to pick someone with 'leadership experience'"

By far and large, Samara is witnessed to have the most experience (more than everyone's lifetime combined) and to command more loyalty (god-like reverence to the asari people)  she is also THE ONLY squad member that no one has a problem with or expresses any doubt about in any fashion whatsoever! 

I need a leader I am choosing the best one, and Samara is not it.  Samara has a crap ton of experience but that does not make her any better a leader for it.  It makes her a good person to have she may knowledge about a variety of crazy situations but I need a leader that can assess data, make decisions and ultimately keep my team alive.

I don;t care if she has been to more worlds then I can count, killed more mercs than anyone else, and seen everything.  If she can;t communicate that and leader effectively it does not matter.  I need an EFFECTIVE leader, not just experienced.

That's not what the mission called for.. it specifically called for the ability to command loyalty through experience.

[InvaderErl]

Naltair wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...
Because the quality called for in the mission before the selection is "You need to pick someone who can command loyalty through experience"  not "you need to pick someone with 'leadership experience'"

By far and large, Samara is witnessed to have the most experience (more than everyone's lifetime combined) and to command more loyalty (god-like reverence to the asari people)  she is also THE ONLY squad member that no one has a problem with or expresses any doubt about in any fashion whatsoever! 

I need a leader I am choosing the best one, and Samara is not it.  Samara has a crap ton of experience but that does not make her any better a leader for it.  It makes her a good person to have she may knowledge about a variety of crazy situations but I need a leader that can assess data, make decisions and ultimately keep my team alive.

I don;t care if she has been to more worlds then I can count, killed more mercs than anyone else, and seen everything.  If she can;t communicate that and leader effectively it does not matter.  I need an EFFECTIVE leader, not just experienced.

Agreed. Samara's code means she is just too inflexible when it comes to leading a team (which she has not done) into a dynamic and unknown battlefield.

[Madecologist]

InvaderErl wrote...

Turian military training emphasizes the importance of the team and fighting as a unit. Garrus is a maverick but understands the value of teamwork above all else. Hell, he holds off on sexing up FemShep because he doesn't want to hurt group cohesion.

Aye, Turian culture is really big on that. Being a Turian Maverick makes him as free willed as a human. Humans make good commanders with the right training... like.. Garrus has?

[DuffyMJ]

InvaderErl wrote...

Yeah but Samara has no experience as a leader. Garrus does. End of line. Really.

Less than 2 years of experience is not noteworthy unless you're a bean counter.

[Remaix]

DuffyMJ wrote...

Madecologist wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

Ah more excuses, it seems like the entire basis of reality is excuse-making like "oh when I do this it's a meme, it's not offensive."

Ironic that you accuse me of making excuses. The same person that has been spending 7 threads making excuses that Bioware is wrong to make Samara a bad team leader and that we all don't get it. Making excuses why competent leaders are not good leader.

Is the kettle calling the tea pot black?

Also your constant use of the word "reality" in half your comments is making me chuckle.

Lastly, stop being a hypocrit. You say I am offensive for pulling a cheap net joke. Yet you have on many occassion actually insulted people arguing against you directly. Unlike a verbal conversation, and internet arguement has records. You were the first to launch attacks against people arguing against you.

That's why YOU are a hypocrite, because when I say something it's "offensive and insulting" but when you do it "hey chill out man, it's just a meme, it's just joking around".

When you flat-out insult someone, yes. Yes, it is insulting. Because you insulted someone. Doesn't take a genius to figure that one out. There's a difference between a personal attack and an imagine posted for fun.

[DuffyMJ]

InvaderErl wrote...

Turian military training emphasizes the importance of the team and fighting as a unit. Garrus is a maverick but understands the value of teamwork above all else. Hell, he holds off on sexing up FemShep because he doesn't want to hurt group cohesion.

That is a good point, though I don't really remember a conversation that said that, but if true than that is a worthy point.

Asari combat training, however, appears to be commando based, so I don't see why Samara would be ignorant of team commando tactics in that case.