211 réponses à ce sujet

[rumination888]

I already know how effective it is at preventing death vs. multiple enemies.
This video shows what I mean:
www.youtube.com/watch

And before you ask, yes, I took Improved Barriers over Heavy Barriers in that vid.

Modifié par rumination888, 18 février 2010 - 08:41 .

[todesgotte]

I used Incindiary Ammo on my soldier along with the Inferno Grendaes or whatever they are called, just cuz I like setting sh*t on fire. >

[RamsenC]

When was this debate between barrier and AP ammo for Vanguard. That debate should have ended quickly based on the long cooldown of barrier. At most I would put 1 point into barrier so I can use it as a shield boost when I can't charge. Really Vanguard does not even need a bonus power, although I do prefer AP ammo when I have enough spare points. For soldier I actually spec out of a bonus power once I have enough points. I'd rather have maxed disrupter ammo, inferno ammo, and squad cryo ammo than AP ammo.

I can agree with you on Infiltrator, but the rest of the classes are better off getting squad ammo.

Modifié par RamsenC, 18 février 2010 - 08:50 .

[sinosleep]

rumination888 wrote...

I already know how effective it is at preventing death vs. multiple enemies.
This video shows what I mean:
www.youtube.com/watch

And before you ask, yes, I took Improved Barriers over Heavy Barriers in that vid.

I only saw barrier last on the first charge there, and on that one the first guy didn't bother shooting at you. I already posted a vid of all three heavy versions of the shield powers getting torn to shreds by a lone vorcha in 1 second. I can get home, go to the same area, cast and then charge a group of three and you see me repeatedly lose shields in around the same time, even with the bonus. You got lucky on that first charge, 9/10 it will get blasted away in no time at all. About the only class I can see benefiting from any shield powers would be a sentinel since the shield powers stack with tech armor. 

Modifié par sinosleep, 18 février 2010 - 08:57 .

[rumination888]

sinosleep wrote...

I only saw barrier last on the first charge there, and on that one the first guy didn't bother shooting at you. I already posted a vid of all three heavy versions of the shield powers getting torn to shreds by a lone vorcha in 1 second. I can get home, go to the same area, cast and then charge a group of three and you see me repeatedly lose shields in around the same time, even with the bonus. You got lucky on that first charge, 9/10 it will get blasted away in no time at all. 

You're using its graphic to judge its duration. Don't.
Pay attention to when my health hits the red. The first time that occurs is also the time when my health drops to under half health. Thats the indicator that Barrier prevented a death.

[sinosleep]

I wasn't using the graphic, if I was going by the graphic I would have said it didn't even last the first charge since the graphic was gone by the time you hit the first guy. Honestly, it's not going to sway me regardless. I can replicate the results of losing shields in 1 second over and over and over again with maxed out barriers of any kind. Since I can replicate those results I'll consider anything that doesn't fall into that as luck.

Modifié par sinosleep, 18 février 2010 - 09:17 .

[sinosleep]

rumination888 wrote...

I already know how effective it is at preventing death vs. multiple enemies.
This video shows what I mean:
www.youtube.com/watch

And before you ask, yes, I took Improved Barriers over Heavy Barriers in that vid.

I only saw barrier last on the first charge there, and on that one the first guy didn't bother shooting at you. I already posted a vid of all three heavy versions of the shield powers getting torn to shreds by a lone vorcha in 1 second. I can get home, go to the same area, cast and then charge a group of three and you see me repeatedly lose shields in around the same time, even with the bonus. You got lucky on that first charge, 9/10 it will get blasted away in no time at all. 

[edit here]

To elaborate, the first group you charge for whatever reason didn't shoot you all that often and that's fine. After that you charge individual enemies (during which shield abilities aren't necessary at all since you won't be dying in between charges unless you are fighting a YMIR or something) until the 1:50 mark at which point you lose shields charging a group. 

Modifié par sinosleep, 18 février 2010 - 09:24 .

[rumination888]

sinosleep wrote...


I only saw barrier last on the first charge there, and on that one
the first guy didn't bother shooting at you. I already posted a vid of
all three heavy versions of the shield powers getting torn to shreds by
a lone vorcha in 1 second. I can get home, go to the same area, cast
and then charge a group of three and you see me repeatedly lose shields
in around the same time, even with the bonus. You got lucky on that
first charge, 9/10 it will get blasted away in no time at all. 

[edit here]

To
elaborate, the first group you charge for whatever reason didn't shoot
you all that often and that's fine. After that you charge individual
enemies (during which shield abilities aren't necessary at all since
you won't be dying in between charges unless you are fighting a YMIR or
something) until the 1:50 mark at which point you lose shields charging
a group.

Then what were you going by? Because obviously the Barrier lasted more than the first Charge there.

I can also replicate shields being destroyed in 1 second by standing still as well. The enemy is less accurate if you juke left and right. Regardless, an extra 1 second is all I need to prevent a death.

The first group barely shot me because I used the environment(notice the edges of the wall and the crates behind me as I charged up) as well as the body of other enemies(they don't fire against friendlies). Charge also grants a split second immunity to all damage.

Modifié par rumination888, 18 février 2010 - 09:36 .

[sinosleep]

I didn't mean the first charge as in literally the first charge, I meant the first charge into a group of enemies. The second charge into a group of enemies comes at 1:50 and you lose your shields. My point is, 1 second of extra shields isn't worth a 10 point investment. Those points are better spent else where. 

Modifié par sinosleep, 18 février 2010 - 09:36 .

[Atmosfear3]

On an infiltrator, tungsten rounds are superior up until you reach the suicide mission. Once you're there, warp ammo is much more useful.
I'm not sure tungsten rounds are that useful for a soldier though. They already have incendiary rounds for that. Warp ammo is probably the better alternative since Soldiers don't have any effective methods to take down barriers and you still retain the bonus damage against health using warp ammo.

Modifié par Atmosfear3, 18 février 2010 - 09:41 .

[rumination888]

sinosleep wrote...

I didn't mean the first charge as in literally the first charge, I meant the first charge into a group of enemies. The second charge into a group of enemies comes at 1:50 and you lose your shields. My point is, 1 second of extra shields isn't worth a 10 point investment. Those points are better spent else where. 

Right, 1:50 and I still had Barriers up. I consider 10 points worth it if I don't have to hit the reload button.
Besides, what else am I gonna take? Shockwave? Pull? AP ammo? Reave? None of them would've saved me.

[JaegerBane]

padaE, I'm not totally sure why you've reached the conclusion that AP ammo trumps all by comparing it with Barrier. That's like saying a Big Mac is the best food for your body because it's healthier than a block of lard.

Barrier is probably the worst skill in the game for a Vanguard, as their class skill does what barrier does for a short time (which, when they actually need the protection, is when they're zooming around Charging anyone). Of course AP Ammo is better.

I'm not totally sure why AP ammo is better than anything else, though. I get that it's got a good level of damage increase (which is why it always gets set to Squad version on Garrus) but what happens if my Vanguard takes Area Reave? as far as I'm concerned Area Reave does 4 different tasks every time I cast it, it recharges in a moment and hits instantly. And it's AoE. Why would I go for a (albeit better) version of an ammo type that I already have? Warp Ammo has already been mentioned as potentially better, too. 

[sinosleep]

rumination888 wrote...
Right, 1:50 and I still had Barriers up. I consider 10 points worth it if I don't have to hit the reload button. 
Besides, what else am I gonna take? Shockwave? Pull? AP ammo? Reave? None of them would've saved me. 

IMO, you wouldn't have died any way, so yeah, points in any of the talents you mentioned barring shock wave would have been worth it. I honestly don't think vanguards should invest in a bonus talent at all. Squad cryo or area pull are both better than any bonus talent you can get. Area pull is notoriously under rated. Area pull insta kills husks and as a 2 second CD so it actually meshes well with a charging vanguard. One incineration blast, plus area pull equals 3 dead husks in about a second. Also comes in handy on the suicide mission for getting rid of collectors quicker than any shotgun could. On grouped collectors you bring Thane and Miranda, warp one with Miranda, pull, warp with Thane, all of them fly off the platform.

Modifié par sinosleep, 18 février 2010 - 09:54 .

[padaE]

JaegerBane wrote...

padaE, I'm not totally sure why you've reached the conclusion that AP ammo trumps all by comparing it with Barrier. That's like saying a Big Mac is the best food for your body because it's healthier than a block of lard.

Barrier is probably the worst skill in the game for a Vanguard, as their class skill does what barrier does for a short time (which, when they actually need the protection, is when they're zooming around Charging anyone). Of course AP Ammo is better.

I'm not totally sure why AP ammo is better than anything else, though. I get that it's got a good level of damage increase (which is why it always gets set to Squad version on Garrus) but what happens if my Vanguard takes Area Reave? as far as I'm concerned Area Reave does 4 different tasks every time I cast it, it recharges in a moment and hits instantly. And it's AoE. Why would I go for a (albeit better) version of an ammo type that I already have? Warp Ammo has already been mentioned as potentially better, too. 

.
Actually I took every skill in consideration. The fact I compared it with barrier is that those two were the ones I found most adequate for the Vanguard. Also a lot of people use barrier in the Vanguard, at least that the feeling I got reading some topics.
.
And about Reave, I think you dont need it.. You already have two squadmates that will take down them for you. You dont need one more, just use biotic charge already. 

[rumination888]

sinosleep wrote...

rumination888 wrote...
Right, 1:50 and I still had Barriers up. I consider 10 points worth it if I don't have to hit the reload button. 
Besides, what else am I gonna take? Shockwave? Pull? AP ammo? Reave? None of them would've saved me. 

IMO, you wouldn't have died any way, so yeah, points in any of the talents you mentioned barring shock wave would have been worth it. I honestly don't think vanguards should invest in a bonus talent at all. Squad cryo or area pull are both better than any bonus talent you can get. Area pull is notoriously under rated. Area pull insta kills husks and as a 2 second CD so it actually meshes well with a charging vanguard. One incineration blast, plus area pull equals 3 dead husks in about a second. Also comes in handy on the suicide mission for getting rid of collectors quicker than any shotgun could. On grouped collectors you bring Thane and Miranda, warp one with Miranda, pull, warp with Thane, all of them fly off the platform.

I ended up under half health. How would I not have died without Barrier? I can't believe you actually said that.

[DirewolfX]

JaegerBane wrote...

That's like saying a Big Mac is the best food for your body because it's healthier than a block of lard.

And I will argue with you that a block of lard is much healthier than a Big Mac.  The same can't be said about Barrier and AP Ammo. =p

Before I take this off topic into a health discussion, let's talk about Ammo Powers for a second.  There's a key mechanic that I don't think we know yet:  Is damage from ammo powers applied before or after the regular weapon damage?  We know that ammo powers don't do jack against defense types they don't specifically target, so consider the implications:

Sniper Rifle vs. Eclipse Merc.

If ammo power damage is applied first:  Disruptor Ammo helps strip the shields so the damage from the actually shot can do more against health.

If ammo power damage is applied second:  Disruptor Ammo is useless, because the Sniper Rifle already strips the shields with its base damage.  In this case, Shredder Ammo (ignore the fact that practically, AP Ammo is a better bonus power choice) would actually be the best ammo choice.

Does anyone know the answer to this?

[sinosleep]

rumination888 wrote...
I ended up under half health. How would I not have died without Barrier? I can't believe you actually said that.

Fine, I'll break it down like this, properly played you shouldn't be getting killed by anything one on one unless it's a YMIR mech or something along those lines, and most of the time if you're taking damage you aren't going to go from fully shielded to dead so quick where the 1 second of time barrier grants you is going to make a difference. That's why I said what I said. In my experience, barrier isn't at all needed for one on one and it doesn't provide enough boost against groups to justify 10 points. 

[thisisme8]

I won't say which is better (although I believe this thread should have been called AP Ammo is the best ammo or bonus ammo power), but I think it should be noted that for a mere 10% less base damage increase, Incindiary Ammo also has a short lockdown effect (organics panic when on fire) and on top of that, at level 4 when it's evolved to Inferno Rounds, also has a small, yet effective, AoE.



You decide what works best for you.

[rumination888]

sinosleep wrote...

rumination888 wrote...
I ended up under half health. How would I not have died without Barrier? I can't believe you actually said that.

Fine, I'll break it down like this, properly played you shouldn't be getting killed by anything one on one unless it's a YMIR mech or something along those lines, and most of the time if you're taking damage you aren't going to go from fully shielded to dead so quick where the 1 second of time barrier grants you is going to make a difference. That's why I said what I said. In my experience, barrier isn't at all needed for one on one and it doesn't provide enough boost against groups to justify 10 points. 

If I wanted to play a class methodically, I'd have played something other than the Vanguard. I'm not going to be switching weapons to take down a group of tightly packed enemies before Charging and pretending to be a Soldier-lite. I'm going to be a Vanguard, Charging head-first and surviving.

[lessthanjake9]

Dominate is the best power in the game.

-Will essentially take 100% of an enemies health bar away.
-Will do damage on top of that from the dominated guy damaging his allies. With heavy enemies or krogans or something, this can be quite substantial.
-Gets pretty much every enemy out of cover, allowing them to be shot continuously (which is the fastest way to kill things)
-Takes enemy fire away from you for a considerable period of time.

By the time your Dominated enemy is killed by his allies, you will surely have been able to take the defenses off of another enemy who is out of cover and not shooting at you. Thus, you can use Dominate again.

[_Dannok1234]

The difference between no ammo and AP ammo against a creatures health is fairly small. You need a weapon that does massive damage per shot to really take notice of it. Such as Claymore and Widow, but since those guns have so much damage anyway most of, if not all of that damage is pointless as it probably won't help you kill anything in less shots, just that the second shot does way more damage then it actually needed to. (Probably more useful on the shotgun in case some of the bullets miss the target due to the spread)

In regards to the barrier thing. The most I've been able to see after hours and hours of trying it out on insanity is that it sometimes buys you up to 0.5 seconds or so when charging into a group of enemies (Ironically while I did that testing it turned out I survived that 0.5 second just fine without having barrier). However that is not something you can rely on, so for me it's not worth the investment(Works slightly better at lower difficulties).

However I can perfectly understand taking it for use in cover and such as a sort of poor mans adrenaline rush/tech armor. After all 1 point in a shield skill will instantly restore your shields. Thats pretty cheap for a single point. Some classes don't really need a bonus power such as Soldiers and Vanguards, and for them that 1 point investment can be pure gold depending on your play style.

Modifié par Dannok1234, 18 février 2010 - 10:25 .

[sinosleep]

rumination888 wrote...
f I wanted to play a class methodically, I'd have played something other than the Vanguard. I'm not going to be switching weapons to take down a group of tightly packed enemies before Charging and pretending to be a Soldier-lite. I'm going to be a Vanguard, Charging head-first and surviving.

Seriously dude? Cause from all my videos I give off the impression that I play the game methodically? Are you kidding me? Here's what I know, I can charge in and waste time killing husks one at a time, or I can use 2 skills and kill whole groups in a second.  Charging for the sake of charging is stupid. I charge when it's a good tactic, and I use something else when I'm better served by doing so.

Modifié par sinosleep, 18 février 2010 - 10:25 .

[rumination888]

sinosleep wrote...

rumination888 wrote...
f I wanted to play a class methodically, I'd have played something other than the Vanguard. I'm not going to be switching weapons to take down a group of tightly packed enemies before Charging and pretending to be a Soldier-lite. I'm going to be a Vanguard, Charging head-first and surviving.

Seriously dude? Cause from all my videos I give off the impression that I play the game methodically? Are you kidding me? Here's what I know, I can charge in and waste time killing husks one at a time, or I can use 2 skills and kill whole groups in a second.  Charging for the sake of charging is stupid. I charge when it's a good tactic, and I use something else when I'm better served by doing so.

Your Garrus video did.

[sinosleep]

Please do go ahead and charge merrily into 2 YMIR mechs.

[medlish]

Agree, Adept + AP rules. AP is the only real ammo type you need.