211 réponses à ce sujet

[JaegerBane]

sinosleep wrote...

Please do go ahead and charge merrily into 2 YMIR mechs.

Favouring charge doesn't necessarily mean charging absolutely everything regardless of enemy or context.

[rumination888]

sinosleep wrote...

Please do go ahead and charge merrily into 2 YMIR mechs.

One YMIR mech is easy enough. 2 YMIR mechs? Cain fixes that.
The only time I can recall not using a heavy weapon or shotgun was against the Reaper. Everything else I either blew up with the Cain/Avalanche/Collector Beam, shotgunned to death, or simply walked right on by.

[newcomplex]

This thread is so stupid. The following enemies have exlusively armor: Mechs, Vorcha, Krogan. That is it. After Omega, their are literally two side missions where the main enemy armor type is armor. No main quests.

Shreader ammo does more damage against health, which is found on every enemy in the game.
Warp Ammo does more damage against Collectors, the main enemy you will be fighting late game.

AP armor sucks. I'm sorry, if you think its good, you're retarded. It has literally no damage advantage over any other ammo other then against blood pack. (Disruptor ammo is better against mechs, it does the same thing and it stuns).

Let me repeat, this ammo is only optimal against blood pack. It is only competitive when against blood pack, mechs, and special enemies with armor and sheilds/barrier.

=_=.

reave, Dominate, forms of barrier are viable special skills.    That is all.   

Modifié par newcomplex, 18 février 2010 - 11:02 .

[sinosleep]

JaegerBane wrote...
Favouring charge doesn't necessarily mean charging absolutely everything regardless of enemy or context.

As if I didn't favor charge even in the video he's talking about. I charge everything there until I get to the room with the enemies in places I can't charge so I switch to the sniper. Could I have switched back to the shotgun after handling the rocket launcher and the other guy to handle the lokis? Sure, but I didn't feel the need to since I already had a weapon out that could do the job. I then switched back to the shotgun to kill the blue suns commander and the two last loki mechs.  This is rich, me, of all people, getting talked to as if charging is a foreign concept. 

Modifié par sinosleep, 18 février 2010 - 10:43 .

[padaE]

A lot of people thought that the ideia of the world being round was stupid and the people who believe that were retardad.

.

That doesn't change the fact.

[JaegerBane]

newcomplex wrote...

This thread is so stupid. The following enemies have armor: Mechs, Vorcha, Krogan. That is it. After Omega, their are literally two side missions where the main enemy armor type is armor. No main quests.

Warp, Dominate, forms of barrier are viable special skills.    That is all.   

If you're going to insult people then it would really good if you took some time to actually understand what you're taking about. If you're playing in difficulties above normal then there's a lot more enemies than that sporting armour. Hell, even on normal, you've got Harbingers, Vanguards, Commandos, bosses of varying descriptions, gunships, Praetorians, Scions.... the list is huge.

And Warp isn't a viable 'special skill'. If your class doesn't have it then you don't get it.

[newcomplex]

padaE wrote...

A lot of people thought that the ideia of the world being round was stupid and the people who believe that were retardad.
.
That doesn't change the fact.

Its retarded because I gave you evidence why it makes no sense.

You might want to attempt to refute it, instead of making a fallacious statements,

retard

JaegerBane wrote...

newcomplex wrote...

This
thread is so stupid. The following enemies have armor: Mechs,
Vorcha, Krogan. That is it. After Omega, their are literally two
side missions where the main enemy armor type is armor. No main
quests.

Warp, Dominate, forms of barrier are viable special
skills.    That is all.   

If you're going to insult
people then it would really good if you took some time to actually
understand what you're taking about. If you're playing in difficulties
above normal then there's a lot more enemies than that sporting armour.
Hell, even on normal, you've got Harbingers, Vanguards, Commandos,
bosses of varying descriptions, gunships, Praetorians, Scions.... the
list is huge.

And Warp isn't a viable 'special skill'. If your
class doesn't have it then you don't get it.

I stated enemies that specifically have armor.    So that picking AP ammo would yeild a better result then picking say warp ammo.     On enemies like harbringers, warp will be doing more damage to their barriers AND their armor.  That leaves Scions (their are exactly 9 in the game).    ok then.   Forgot about them.    Husks have laughable amounts of armor anyway, a hundred.  

What does difficulty settings have anything to do with anything?    I beat the game twice on insanity, never tried anything else, but its completely irrevelent. 

And I meant to say "reave", not warp.   

Modifié par newcomplex, 18 février 2010 - 10:58 .

[Roxlimn]

Also, Klixen, Varren, and Thresher Maw. Vanguards have more Armor+Health than Barrier. Commandos and Legionnaires have more Armor+Health than Barrier (since they don't have Barrier but Shields).



YMIR Mechs have significant amounts of Armor HP.



All that said, I don't believe AP Ammo is all that good for an Adept. They have Warp to deal with Armor, and once an enemy is in Health, it's more efficient to hit it with a power than it is to kill it with bullets.

[padaE]

Its retarded because I gave you evidence why it makes no sense.

You might want to attempt to refute it, instead of making a fallacious statements,

retard

.
The whole topic is evidence. Why would I write the same thing twice? 
.
If you want to know some specific point just ask me. 

[newcomplex]

Roxlimn wrote...

Also, Klixen, Varren, and Thresher Maw. Vanguards have more Armor+Health than Barrier. Commandos and Legionnaires have more Armor+Health than Barrier (since they don't have Barrier but Shields).

YMIR Mechs have significant amounts of Armor HP.

All that said, I don't believe AP Ammo is all that good for an Adept. They have Warp to deal with Armor, and once an enemy is in Health, it's more efficient to hit it with a power than it is to kill it with bullets.

=_=

You fight klixen, varren on two side missions.    Thresher maw is a unique encounter lol.

YMIR mechs have more sheild then health and armor put toghether.   

AP armor isn't good for ANYTHING.    In fact, any ammo is more or less sub-optimal on classes with powers already.    AP ammo yeilds LITERALLY ONLY 10% increase in damage over inciendary ammo, something vanguards and soldiers ALREADY HAVE.    And it doesn't stop health regen, nor does it stun organic enemies.    

Why on earth are you getting a special power for TEN PERCENT MORE DAMAGE?   

[JaegerBane]

newcomplex wrote...
I stated enemies that specifically have armor.    So that picking AP ammo would yeild a better result then picking say warp ammo.     On enemies like harbringers, warp will be doing more damage to their barriers AND their armor.  That leaves Scions (their are exactly 9 in the game).    ok then.   Forgot about them.    Husks have laughable amounts of armor anyway, a hundred.  

The point is that you tried to claim there were too few enemies in the game that have armour for AP to be useful, but you ignored half of them. Not to rock the boat, but given you're blasting some other dude on here for using 'fallacious statements', it seems a little hypocritical to do the same while making your whole point, don't you think?

The bottom line is that there are plenty of enemies in the game who have armour. For what it's worth, I agree that AP ammo isn't as brilliant as the OP is making out to be, as can be seen in my first post. I just don't necessarily think anyone is a 'retard' just for preferring it.

What does difficulty settings have anything to do with anything?    I beat the game twice on insanity, never tried anything else, but its completely irrevelent. 

They increase the number of enemies who have armour. The relevance of such a caveat to an argument about how useful AP ammo is should be self-evident.

What isn't relevant is how many times you beat the game on insanity.

And I meant to say "reave", not warp.   

I guessed as much. The point I was trying to make is that striding into a thread and bashing out insults sort of backfires when you don't even get half your own facts straight.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 18 février 2010 - 11:11 .

[newcomplex]

padaE wrote...

Its retarded because I gave you evidence why it makes no sense.

You might want to attempt to refute it, instead of making a fallacious statements,

retard

.
The whole topic is evidence. Why would I write the same thing twice? 
.
If you want to know some specific point just ask me. 

wow...

Alright...

Why are you getting a special power that results in 10% upgrade for a skill you already have?   The over time effect of inciendary ammo balances itself out with the stopping of regen (when some of the enemies that are most effected by it, vorcha and krogan, have very large regen), so your getting 10% more damage.

Moreover, on the soldier, getting AP ammo will not only invalidate half your skills, but make you dump points on nothing after level 26.   

Why are you getting a power that is provably less effective against a higher percentage of enemies in the game then warp ammo?

I'm not even going to argue for dominate, theirs less mathematical basis, and more of a logical one, so it would be harder, so this is going straight comparison to sheild skill or warp ammo.

Modifié par newcomplex, 18 février 2010 - 11:21 .

[rumination888]

newcomplex wrote...

Roxlimn wrote...

Also, Klixen, Varren, and Thresher Maw. Vanguards have more Armor+Health than Barrier. Commandos and Legionnaires have more Armor+Health than Barrier (since they don't have Barrier but Shields).

YMIR Mechs have significant amounts of Armor HP.

All that said, I don't believe AP Ammo is all that good for an Adept. They have Warp to deal with Armor, and once an enemy is in Health, it's more efficient to hit it with a power than it is to kill it with bullets.

=_=

You fight klixen, varren on two side missions.    Thresher maw is a unique encounter lol.

YMIR mechs have more sheild then health and armor put toghether.   

AP armor isn't good for ANYTHING.    In fact, any ammo is more or less sub-optimal on classes with powers already.    AP ammo yeilds LITERALLY ONLY 10% increase in damage over inciendary ammo, something vanguards and soldiers ALREADY HAVE.    And it doesn't stop health regen, nor does it stun organic enemies.    

Why on earth are you getting a special power for TEN PERCENT MORE DAMAGE?   

Not even 10%.

Lets say a weapon does 100 damage.
Heavy Incendiary Ammo would give 160 damage.
Tungsten Ammo would give 170 damage.
A difference of ~6%.

[sinosleep]

Gotta agree with the other vanguards here, incendiary more than makes up for the small difference by panicking organics. It's a big part of the reason I've started thinking Vanguards don't really need a bonus talent at all.I used to be a big AP ammo proponent but I've changed my mind.

[JaegerBane]

sinosleep wrote...

Gotta agree with the other vanguards here, incendiary more than makes up for the small difference by panicking organics. It's a big part of the reason I've started thinking Vanguards don't really need a bonus talent at all.I used to be a big AP ammo proponent but I've changed my mind.

Technically they don't, but I generally find Reave to be bags of fun

[newcomplex]

JaegerBane wrote..]
The point is that you tried to claim there were too few enemies in the game that have armour for AP to be useful, but you ignored half of them. Not to rock the boat, but given you're blasting some other dude on here for using 'fallacious statements', it seems a little hypocritical to do the same while making your whole point, don't you think?

The bottom line is that there are plenty of enemies in the game who have armour. For what it's worth, I agree that AP ammo isn't as brilliant as the OP is making out to be, as canbe seen in my first post. I just don't necessarily think anyone is a 'retard' just for preferring it.

The OP isn't retarded for having a preference, I would use AP ammo over warp ammo on the engineer for RP reasons .

He is retarded for clinging so hard to his illogical viewpoint in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.    Even you, who apparently empathizes with him, disagrees with his thesis.

The amount of enemy in the game who have armor is somewhat common, but the amount of enemies who have armor where AP ammo provides a distinct advantage is limited.   

They increase the number of enemies who have armour. The relevance of such a caveat to an argument about how useful AP ammo is should be self-evident.

What isn't relevant is how many times you beat the game on insanity.

First of all, I was honestly not aware lower difficulties decrease the amount of enemies that have armor.    Are you sure?   That is rather odd.    So do vorcha or something just not have anything except health on normal?   huh.

Second, I stated I beat it twice to refute your Ad-Hominem of me not having played insanity (which isn't always fallacy, your using it in the proper context...good job )

I guessed as much. The point I was trying to make is that striding into a thread and bashing out insults sort of backfires when you don't even get half your own facts straight.   

My facts were straight, I just didn't feel like explicating the proper degree on a forum.   

Modifié par newcomplex, 18 février 2010 - 11:19 .

[Roxlimn]

newcomplex:

=_=



You fight klixen, varren on two side missions. Thresher maw is a unique encounter lol.



YMIR mechs have more sheild then health and armor put toghether.



AP ammo isn't good for ANYTHING. In fact, any ammo is more or less sub-optimal on classes with powers already. AP ammo yeilds LITERALLY ONLY 10% increase in damage over inciendary ammo, something vanguards and soldiers ALREADY HAVE. And it doesn't stop health regen, nor does it stun organic enemies.



Why on earth are you getting a special power for TEN PERCENT MORE DAMAGE?

Actually, you fight klixen and varren on at least two loyalty missions, plus the two side missions. And yes, the Thresher Maw is a unique encounter. You still fight it.



Don't know that YMIR have more Shields than Armor and Health together. Reference?



I found AP Ammo of great use as a Sentinel - most because I was reserving my cooldown for use in renewing my Tech Armor and/or powers against defenses. That said, you're not locked into any one bonus power. You can always change it up before a mission, so I don't see how it's useless when it's so very useful for certain missions.



I liked it on my Infiltrator because I otherwise had a choice of Disruptor or Cryo, neither of which boosted my gun damage against everything.



Also, Inciendary Ammo, once in health, tends to panic organics, and that tends to make them flail about - they're harder to headshot when they're doing that. I'm not saying I like Soldier with AP Ammo - but it's not just 10% more damage. You don't have the same performance with different ammo, and you don't automatically have maxxed ammo ranks anyway.

[padaE]

wow...

Alright...

Why are you getting a special power that results in 10% upgrade for a skill you already have?   The over time effect of inciendary ammo balances itself out with the stopping of regen (when some of the enemies that are most effected by it, vorcha and krogan, have very large regen), so your getting 10% more damage.

Moreover, on the soldier, getting AP ammo will not only invalidate half your skills, but make you dump points on nothing after level 26.   

Why are you getting a power that is provably less effective against a higher percentage of enemies in the game then warp ammo?

.
So, what you are asking is that why AP Ammo instead of Warp ammo? Well, thats already answered in the topic but, well, I'll say it again.
.
AP Ammo does more damage than Warp Ammo, however the later does bonus damage to Barriers.
.
What happens is that is better to do more damage to armor and healthy than do less damage in both + barrier. That is beacuse the strongest enemys have much more armor and healthy than barriers. Also, its very easy to take down a barrier, even with AP ammo. I never faced an enemy that I needed badly take its barriers down. 
.
.
About the AP ammo being kind of useless for both soldiers and vanguards, I agree. Its kind of useless, what happens is that the other skills are even less useful. 

[JaegerBane]

padaE wrote...
About the AP ammo being kind of useless for both soldiers and vanguards, I agree. Its kind of useless, what happens is that the other skills are even less useful. 

Indeed, because having an AoE biotic attack the melts armour, barriers and health, gives health to the caster, incapacitates organics and hits instantly truly is the definition of uselessness.

[padaE]

JaegerBane wrote...

padaE wrote...
About the AP ammo being kind of useless for both soldiers and vanguards, I agree. Its kind of useless, what happens is that the other skills are even less useful. 

Indeed, because having an AoE biotic attack the melts armour, barriers and health, gives health to the caster, incapacitates organics and hits instantly truly is the definition of uselessness.

.
Indeed.
.
Instead of using such a power you could just turn on a Adrenaline Rush and make much more damage or Rush towards the enemy, Ending the fight in no time. 

[We Tigers]

AP ammo doesn't help soldiers or vanguards very much.  However, it's huge for an infiltrator or engineer, who rely heavily on their abilities (and thus don't want to add another cooldown) but don't have ammo powers that damage health/armor.  As an infiltrator, I do lots of my killing with the Predator pistol, and AP ammo is superb on that gun.  Warp ammo is obviously excellent as well because of the added damage on barrier, and is a particularly good choice if you don't want to use Miranda or Thane.  I'd happily give either class Reave, but I'm not that fond of biotics on a tech character, nor do I like making Incinerate redundant.  An infiltrator who subs Reave for the Incinerate tree is really just a soldier who takes cloak instead of assault rifles/Adrenaline Rush.

Squad incendiary ammo is an excellent alternative, but Jacob dies pretty easily and doesn't do a lot of shotty damage, while squad incendiary for Grunt would mean sacrificing max fortification or max character skill.  Same for AP on Garrus.  I do think there's an argument to be made that an engineer or infiltrator who retrains out of the bonus skill, just maxes his own class abilities, and uses squad ammo for the extra firepower is a more balanced killer, though hacking and the cryo skills may have limited use depending on playstyle.

Modifié par We Tigers, 18 février 2010 - 11:37 .

[amrose2]

AP armor is good. Best for all classes? No.



/thread

[JaegerBane]

padaE wrote...
.
Indeed.
.
Instead of using such a power you could just turn on a Adrenaline Rush and make much more damage or Rush towards the enemy, Ending the fight in no time. 

Right, next time I play my non-soldier I'll be sure to switch Adrenaline burst on.

[JaegerBane]

amrose2 wrote...

AP armor is good. Best for all classes? No.

/thread

You're being far too sensible for this thread.

[padaE]

JaegerBane wrote...

padaE wrote...
.
Indeed.
.
Instead of using such a power you could just turn on a Adrenaline Rush and make much more damage or Rush towards the enemy, Ending the fight in no time. 

Right, next time I play my non-soldier I'll be sure to switch Adrenaline burst on.

.
for some reason I thought you were talking about Vanguard and Soldiers.