211 réponses à ce sujet

[newcomplex]

Athenau wrote...
The in-game description doesn't mention that the DOT is instant against armor either.  And, since you appear to be terminally dense, let me remind you that you were claiming that AP ammo is pointless because incendiary was almost as damaging.

It isn't.   Not even close.

So you mean the inciendary ammo does 20% increment because the damage is done though dots?   uh...I was under the impression you meant it did only 20% less flat.    Well....I knew that.    The DOT stacks, so it only is 20% dps when the enemy is almost dead.    This is a legit point for shotguns and sniper rifles, which kill in one shot/very quickly but simply not true applied to assault rifles.     

You keep fixating on "blood pack" as if that's relevant.     Yeah, all the blood pack have armor, and the most dangerous enemies you encounter on Omega (krogans) have lots of it.    AP ammo is better there (since when does warp ammo stop regeneration, that's warp, not warp ammo).  It's also better than warp ammo against EVERY OTHER ENEMY without a barrier, because it does more damage to health as well.

Inciendary ammo stops health regen.    AP ammo Is better against every other enemy, or the blue suns, by a factor of 10%.

How are you ignoring the fact that the most 

DANGEROUS ENEMY AND COMMONLY FOUGHT ENEMY IN THE GAME.

The collectors, use barriers?    

There are a whopping _four_ collector missions (horizon, collector ship, retrieve IFF, final assault).  And retrieve IFF  is all husks + scions so that doesn't even count.  And in the other missions you're dividing your time between fighting collectors and barrier-less enemies.

_This_ constitutes "the most commonly fought enemy in the game"?  Really? 

Furthermore, the collectors themselves are not terribly threatening.  A drone is only incrementally more dangerous than a grunt mercenary, guardians are more annoying, but not any more potent offensively, and assassins about as bad as a merc heavy weapons guy (actually less, since heavy weapons  mercs can stunlock you with their missile launchers).

I editted that out, they are not in fact, the most commonly fought, but rather the most consistently fought.    You fight them from horizon until the game ends.    Blood pack for instance, are restricted to half of omega, and tuchanka, and a random side quest.    

Assassins are harder then heavy weapon merchs because you cannot dodge their heavy weapon.   I think I've been hit by a heavy weapon like, once, throughout mass effect.     It also does more DPS.    Collector missions are really unarguably the hardest.    Just look at the complaint threads.   99% of them are coming from collector missions.    I don't know a single person here posting about getting stuck on omega, or tuchanka, or where you recruit grunt, or any other place where armor is dominant.

Also, since 1.  there's a universal cooldown, and 2.  you can only carry two squadmates, the number of abilities damaging armor is irrelevant.  You're limited to three anti-armor/barrier powers, more doesn't help

The only way you can get bonus damage against biotics and use AP ammo is use warp, or to bring samara, after doing her loyalty quest.

Literally every single class in the entire game is able to do bonus damage against armor through a inherent skill, and triple the amount of squadmates.
 

This is the stupidest thing you've said so far.  Seriously, your whole argument is basically that "barrier is good because I can do dps for x extra seconds while eating bullets to the face"?  Do you not realize that barrier has a 12 second cooldown which locks out the most amazing combat skill in the game, adrenaline rush.   I mean, really, there is an argument for barrier as a "get out of jail" button, but claiming it boosts your overall dps is just god damn idiotic.

Using barrier stops one Adrenaline rush.     Obviously, one should not be using it in favor of adrenaline rush, but if one is unable to utilize adrenaline rush, using barrier the best course of action.     Unless you mean to imply that a single Adrenaline rush will acount for seven seconds of doing nothing.

This is going purely by mathematics.    Using it to save your life is potent as well, but one cannot give a DPS value to that.   

-----------------

Remember, this is flat out ignoring things such as the fact that warp is  +100% to targets effected by biotics.    

Modifié par newcomplex, 19 février 2010 - 01:51 .

[thisisme8]

Athenau wrote...

Incendiary ammo is only a 60% instant buff vs armor.  It's a 20%_ DOT_ vs health.

I would like to see your source.

[ODST Steve]

I still like Warp Ammo. I like having the diversity.

[Kurupt87]

incendiary is 60% as a dot against health + panic, against armour it is 120% instantantly, against shields/barrier i'm not sure how it works (the point being whether it does any dmg at all to these defences, if it does it will do them instantly, and will do its base 60% as dmg, but i believe that it has no effect), against synthetics in health it does reduced dmg, i'd guess at around 20-30% as a dot, if that, and doesnt panic them.

Modifié par Kurupt87, 19 février 2010 - 01:56 .

[Athenau]

So you mean the inciendary ammo does 20% increment because the damage is done though dots? uh...I was under the impression you meant it did only 20% less flat. Well....I knew that. The DOT stacks, so it only is 20% dps when the enemy is almost dead. This is a legit point for shotguns and sniper rifles, which kill in one shot/very quickly but simply not true applied to assault rifles.

Proof? The DOT certainly didn't stack in ME1 and I don't see why it would stack here.

The only way you can get bonus damage against biotics and use AP ammo is use warp, or to bring samara, after doing her loyalty quest.

Literally every single class in the entire game is able to do bonus damage against armor through a inherent skill, and triple the amount of squadmates.

So what? You can spec anti-armor or anti-barrier either way. And since warp/reave are the best damage powers in the game and affect both armor and barriers, there's no reason not to double up if that's what you want. The presence of other, inferior, damage powers on other squadmates is irrelevant.

Using barrier stops one Adrenaline rush. Obviously, one should not be using it in favor of adrenaline rush, but if one is unable to utilize adrenaline rush, using barrier the best course of action. Unless you mean to imply that a single Adrenaline rush will acount for seven seconds of doing nothing.

If you're unable to use adrenaline rush you're either in cooldown (in which case you can't use barrier either) or about half a second from death (so using it won't help). So yeah, if you're about to die and can't rush your way out, by all means pop a barrier to save your life, which is pretty much the only valid argument for taking barrier in the first place. 

20%.

Assassins are harder then heavy weapon merchs because you cannot dodge their heavy weapon. I think I've been hit by a heavy weapon like, once, throughout mass effect. It also does more DPS. Collector missions are really unarguably the hardest. Just look at the complaint threads. 99% of them are coming from collector missions. I don't know a single person here posting about getting stuck on omega, or tuchanka, or where you recruit grunt, or any other place where armor is dominant.

The collector missions aren't harder because of the collectors which are basically just generic gun toting enemies, they're harder because of husk/abomination bumrushes, scions, and harbinger blowing you out of cover with his glowing ball of death.

Modifié par Athenau, 19 février 2010 - 02:04 .

[sinosleep]

rumination888 wrote...
1 second is often all it takes to live or die. I'm pretty sure we went over this, but I'd rather play like a Vanguard and live, than shoot from afar against large packs of enemies. Any ability that promotes a class' uniqueness is, from my perspective, their best bonus power.

We have been over this, and I'm just going to agree to disagree cause clearly neither of us is changing our minds. IMO the additional second is 1.) not worth the points and 2.) wholly unnecessary 3.) counter productive to what a vanguard does. In order to be successful a vanguard should always be charging and thus always refilling shields. If you charge into a group and lose your shield in 1 second you've just wasted a 12 second cooldown on 1 second of survivability. Either you are going to charge again to refill your standard shields, or you are going to recast barrier and then be unable to charge for 12 seconds. Either way, it's a waste IMO. 

Modifié par sinosleep, 19 février 2010 - 02:01 .

[Athenau]

Ok, I was wrong. I just tested it an the DOT on health for incendiary ammo DOES stack. So it is an effective 60% bonus everywhere, plus a small stun on organics. That makes it superior to AP for any class with access to inferno ammo.

Modifié par Athenau, 19 février 2010 - 02:16 .

[Ulysseslotro]

The collector missions aren't harder because of the collectors which are basically just generic gun toting enemies, they're harder because of husk/abomination bumrushes, scions, and harbinger blowing you out of cover with his glowing ball of death.

Husks are easy  lvl 1 concussive = dead.  3-4 shots from Scimitar = dead.  2-3 seconds with flamethrower = dead.

Widow + HAR = Scions are no threat

Widow + HAR = Harbinger goes down fast

Barrier = Counter for Harbinger glowing ball of anti-cover

class dismissed!

[newcomplex]

So what? You can spec anti-armor or anti-barrier either way. And since warp/reave are the best damage powers in the game and affect both armor and barriers, there's no reason not to double up if that's what you want. The presence of other, inferior, damage powers on other squadmates is irrelevant.

huh?   what?   Obviously, it would be best to spec AP against armor, shredder against sheilds and warp against collectors.    Thats not what were argueing.    Were argueing for the best over all.    

Their are three squadmates with anti biotic spells.     You yourself will not have any unless you are a adept or a sentinel.    Two of those squad mates are not available during horizon.     Theirs a good chance two of those squadmates won't be their/won't have their power during the collector ship.     Two of them won't be their when your on illium for the first mission, and if you chose samara first, you still will lack a second anti-biotic power on the second illium mission, picking Thane, Samara or Miranda every time when you fight biotics may get annoying too.

If you're unable to use adrenaline rush you're either in cooldown (in which case you can't use barrier either) or about half a second from death (so using it won't help). So yeah, if you're about to die and can't rush your way out, by all means pop a barrier to save your life, which is pretty much the only valid argument for taking barrier in the first place. 

20%

wat?   Ever heard of cover?   Are you implying that your able to constantly shoot throughout an entire fight without needing to regen sheilds?    Barrier lets you regen sheilds and do DPS at the same time.    Thats what I'm saying.    You need to sit down and wait 7 seconds for sheilds to regen at some point in most fights, unless they are extremely brief (in which case the premptive barrier will be effective by itself).    During this time, adren rush would be useless.     pop barrier and kill something.

The collector missions aren't harder because of the collectors which are basically just generic gun toting enemies, they're harder because of husk/abomination bumrushes, scions, and harbinger blowing you out of cover with his glowing ball of death.

Husk Abomination bumrushes?  That occurs once on a collector mission, and was easy.    Scions are hard because you are unable to take out accompanying collectors fast enough, in every scenario in collector missions except once before the final boss.     I'm sure nobody has trouble just killing scions that are by themselves.     Finally, warp ammo is better against harbringers.   

Modifié par newcomplex, 19 février 2010 - 02:46 .

[rumination888]

sinosleep wrote...

We have been over this, and I'm just going to agree to disagree cause clearly neither of us is changing our minds. IMO the additional second is 1.) not worth the points and 2.) wholly unnecessary 3.) counter productive to what a vanguard does. In order to be successful a vanguard should always be charging and thus always refilling shields. If you charge into a group and lose your shield in 1 second you've just wasted a 12 second cooldown on 1 second of survivability. Either you are going to charge again to refill your standard shields, or you are going to recast barrier and then be unable to charge for 12 seconds. Either way, it's a waste IMO. 

If you had Barriers up, and at any point during a fight were reduced to under half of your health bar, then Barrier prevented a reload. I'd rather not gamble on luck and save/reload more often than... zero. But fine, lets just agree to disagree.

[padaE]

For some play styles other skills can be more effective than AP Ammo.

.

When I made the First Mass Effect 2 Law I was considering the most effective and deadly play style.

[Kurupt87]

charge does not re-apply barrier/gsb/fort shield bonus, i read that somewhere on this board, i think in a post from christina norman in one of the vg threads.

[newcomplex]

padaE wrote...

For some play styles other skills can be more effective than AP Ammo.
.
When I made the First Mass Effect 2 Law I was considering the most effective and deadly play style.

lol.    your making a ME law?   



Especially when you've failed to statistically back up any of your statements lol.  

Also, why are we argueing for barrier on vanguard?   I'm not saying barrier is terrible on it, but argue for reave, its much easier, Reave is where its at, it gives you a full health heal and it softens enemies up en-mass, or to take out ranged enemies much easier.   

Modifié par newcomplex, 19 février 2010 - 02:27 .

[padaE]

newcomplex wrote...

padaE wrote...

For some play styles other skills can be more effective than AP Ammo.
.
When I made the First Mass Effect 2 Law I was considering the most effective and deadly play style.

lol.    your making a ME law?   



Especially when you've failed to statistically back up any of your statements lol.  

.
Not one but five. 

[Athenau]

 

huh?   what?   Obviously, it would be best to spec AP against armor, shredder against sheilds and warp against collectors.    Thats not what were argueing.    Were argueing for the best over all.

No, I'm talking about active powers.  If you're doing damage through powers, you pick 2xwarp or warp + reave, and that's pretty much the end of the story.  The presence of _other_ anti-armor powers on other squadmates doesn't matter, because you won't take them anyway.

Their are three squadmates with anti biotic spells.     You yourself will not have any unless you are a adept or a sentinel.    Two of those squad mates are not available during horizon.    

This isn't true.  Concussive shot has a big multiplier against barriers, so you're free to take grunt, garrus, or zaeed as well if you just want anti-barrier punch.

Theirs a good chance two of those squadmates won't be their/won't have their power during the collector ship.    

See above, you have plenty of options against barriers, even before you get Samara and Thane.

 wat?   Ever heard of cover?   Are you implying that your able to constantly shoot throughout an entire fight without needing to regen sheilds?    Barrier lets you regen sheilds and do DPS at the same time.    Thats what I'm saying.    You need to sit down and wait 7 seconds for sheilds to regen at some point in most fights, unless they are extremely brief (in which case the premptive barrier will be effective by itself).    During this time, adren rush would be useless.     pop barrier and kill something.

So your suggestion is to pop barrier when you lose shields, get maybe another 2 seconds worth of firing until they go out again, then be stuck without a power for 10 more seconds.

Or, you can wait 7 seconds for your shield to recharge, pop rush, and get five seconds of god mode again.  

This is not a compelling argument for barrier.

Husk Abomination bumrushes?  That occurs once on a collector mission, and was easy.    Scions are hard because you are unable to take out accompanying collectors fast enough, in every scenario in collector missions except once before the final boss.     I'm sure nobody has trouble just killing scions that are by themselves.     Finally, warp ammo is better against harbringers.    

The firefights with collectors are only difficult because of harbinger.  Once you learn to avoid his ball of doom they become like any other merc fight.  Scions may not be difficult singly, but they're why people have so much trouble when they appear.  Those fights are difficult not because the collectors are uniquely difficult, but because of the presence of scions.  You could substitute any other gun toting enemy for the collectors and the outcome would be the same.

Ask for abominations, the _only_ problem I had on final mission was during the seeker swarm segment when you had to stop waves of husks and abominations along with a scion.  Everything else was straightforward. 

Modifié par Athenau, 19 février 2010 - 02:39 .

[rumination888]

Kurupt87 wrote...

charge does not re-apply barrier/gsb/fort shield bonus, i read that somewhere on this board, i think in a post from christina norman in one of the vg threads.

Not from my own tests. If you have a quote from her I'd like to see it.

[thisisme8]

newcomplex wrote...

you still will lack a anti-biotic power on the second illium mission,

Could you stop at a pharmacy?

[newcomplex]

Athenau wrote...

No, I'm talking about active powers.  If you're doing damage through powers, you pick 2xwarp or warp + reave, and that's pretty much the end of the story.  The presence of _other_ anti-armor powers on other squadmates doesn't matter, because you won't take them anyway.

That means you've got to pick 2x warp or reave (which can't even be acquired until the end of the game) on every single mission where its available.   

This isn't true.  Concussive shot has a big multiplier against barriers, so you're free to take grunt, garrus, or zaeed as well if you just want anti-barrier punch.

Conc does 100 damage less against barriers.   

So your suggestion is to pop barrier when you lose shields, get maybe another 2 seconds worth of firing until they go out again, then be stuck without a power for 10 more seconds.

Or, you can wait 7 seconds for your shield to recharge, pop rush, and get five seconds of god mode again.  

This is not a compelling argument for barrier.

How is that I'm only able to fire for 2 seconds with 500 sheild?   Are you losing your sheilds without barrier in the average span one one second without barrier during normal, covered combat?     You have other problems to worry about then debating if AP ammo is mathematically accurate.      Wouldn't that mean with normal sheilds, with adren rushes 40% damage reduction, I'm only able to fire for 1.4 seconds without losing sheild?  

Modifié par newcomplex, 19 février 2010 - 02:45 .

[newcomplex]

thisisme8 wrote...

newcomplex wrote...

you still will lack a anti-biotic power on the second illium mission,

Could you stop at a pharmacy?

Read it in context broski.    

[newcomplex]

padaE wrote...

newcomplex wrote...

padaE wrote...

For some play styles other skills can be more effective than AP Ammo.
.
When I made the First Mass Effect 2 Law I was considering the most effective and deadly play style.

lol.    your making a ME law?   



Especially when you've failed to statistically back up any of your statements lol.  

.
Not one but five. 

This is why you, and nobody else in this thread who disagrees, specifically is worthy of "retarded"

First of all, that post made no coherent sense, but thats not the point.    The point is if your going to try an argue that something is unarguably the BEST SKILL EVA FOR EVER1, its an incredibly bold claim to make.

None of the enemies you fight going on after horizon, with the singular exception of tuchanka, will feature enemies who have armor.    The hardest missions in the game are gainst collectors, who have biotic barriers.    Enemies in fact have equal amounts barrier then armor, and the sheild part is much harder to take down due to the sheer availibility of skills and weapons that excel against armor, specifically amazing weapons like the widow (2x damage against armor), and the revenant (1.4 against armor).

You ignore the fact that biotics will do double damage with warp ammo.   

The amount of emperical evidence you deliver that is actually factually correct can be concisely summed up with the following quotation.

The crux of your argument boils down to "cuz I said so".

Modifié par newcomplex, 19 février 2010 - 02:58 .

[Average Gatsby]

I'm not sure I understand the reasoning in the OP about the bonus power. Are you talking about a single point or 10 points or somewhere inbetween. If your talking about max, your argument for the Adept is seriously flawed. Adepts cannot afford to max an ammo power without making themselves miss out on a key part of their 4 core abilities.

Where would the points come from? Definitely not warp or singularity. From pull? area pull is fantastic when your singularity is doing other things or you need to do a quick single target. And both heavy throw and area throw are excellent for rapid pull + throw instant kills.

A single point might be understandable, but still foolish because that most of the time the adept can run with a squadmate who is sharing a squad ammo, so it would be more effective to use that squad ammo. Finally, why would we take AP when 1) enemies reduced to health are used to set up detonations or instant killed by throws or 2) we absolutely destroy armor with warps.

Considering only a sentance was devoted to talking about adepts, and even less for engineers, I think it would be best if you cut out those two classes until you have some definite reasons on why it would be so good for them.

[sinosleep]

rumination888 wrote...
Not from my own tests. If you have a quote from her I'd like to see it.

Got to agree with rumination888, I've seen the numbers. Charge will refill the shield abilities, but there has to be something to refill. If the shield gets knocked down to 1/10 and you charge you'll be alright. If the shield gets knocked off and you charge though you only refill standard shields since the ability is no longer active. 

[newcomplex]

AP ammo is so far behind that the point isn't even debatable

Realize that enemies under the effect of singularity when their shield is still up take double damage from warp ammo. Which is amazing.

Infiltrators do not need help with armor.  The widow does 1500 damage headshots against armor.   Enemies that go down to armor drop so fast it is irrelevent.   They need fast ways of dealing with sheilds and biotics.   Against geth and mechs, a level 1 disruptor shot is better.

Soldiers mathematically benefit more from barrier.   7 Seconds of continued attack always beat a single adrenaline rush.   

Engineers have a way of instantly take out sheilds, instantly taking out armor, and instantly freezing.    Note that they are missing something.

That leaves sentinels and vanguards, where you even need to go into logistics about whether warp or AP is better.     And warp clearly is.    You don't even FIGHT exlcusively armored oponents outside of tuchanka upon going into horizon, except for the odd varren here and the odd krogan their in side quests.     Collectors however, are really uncontestedly the hardest enemies in the game.   

Modifié par newcomplex, 19 février 2010 - 03:11 .

[Athenau]

That means you've got to pick 2x warp or reave (which can't even be acquired until the end of the game) on every single mission where its available.

Until the end of the game? You get 2 warps as soon as you pick up Thane, which is charitably about half way through the game, and you can get reave right after Ilium.

And you pick warp and reave only when you care about doing damage/defense stripping through powers (unless you're speccing anti-shield with 2x overload).  If you don't, then you're free to pick something else, obviously.

Conc does 100 damage less against barriers

Heavy warp does 400 damage to barriers, which is only 60 more than concussive shot. What's your point here, anyway? The fact is, you do have active options to deal with barriers before 2xwarp becomes available, unless you're going to argue that 60 less damage is somehow enough to make it useless as a barrier breaking ability.

How is that I'm only able to fire for 2 seconds with 500 sheild? Are you losing your sheilds without barrier in the average span one one second without barrier during normal, covered combat? You have other problems to worry about then debating if AP ammo is mathematically accurate.

If by "other problems" you mean, "actually playing the game on insanity", then yes. I don't know what game you're playing, but pretty much any enemy with a rapid fire weapon can drop my shields in about a second or two of sustained fire. And there's almost always more than one enemy. And they almost concentrate their (perfectly accurate) fire on you.

So when you claim that barrier is good for about five seconds of pounding I have to wonder what you're talking about, because that would imply that regular shields would last about 2.5 seconds, which is an _eternity_ outside of adrenaline rush on insanity.

Wouldn't that mean with normal sheilds, with adren rushes 40% damage reduction, I'm only able to fire for 1.4 seconds without losing sheild?

At 70% time dilation you're taking 3.33x less fire for the duration, so it's quite possible to have your shields last for most of the rush, which matches my in-game experience pretty well. And if you're moving during rush you'll take even less fire because you're running at near-teleport speeds and no one can get a bead on you anyway.

Adrenaline rush is the best offensive and defensive power the soldier has. There are very few situations where I'd want to use something other than rush because it's just that versatile.

Modifié par Athenau, 19 février 2010 - 03:13 .

[padaE]

The thing with the adept is, when an enemy in under effect by singulary you dont need to shoot.