211 réponses à ce sujet

[Kurupt87]

i looked for it but couldn't find it, but i'm pretty sure of this. its not immediately obvious because the charge-barrier is on top of the barrier, so to speak, so it goes down before you get to the barrier bit, and gets recharged over it again when you charge. it wasn't christina but a different bioware staffy now that i think about it, and not in a vg thread, i sound convincing eh?

[newcomplex]

Athenau wrote...
Until the end of the game? You get 2 warps as soon as you pick up Thane, which is charitably about half way through the game, and you can get reave right after Ilium.

The space between collector ship and IFF is halfway through the game?    Or you can get thane first and leave illiium, only to come back to it...that is optimal, but it kind of breaks the game as an RPG for me.

Heavy warp does 400 damage to barriers, which is only 60 more than concussive shot. What's your point here, anyway? The fact is, you do have active options to deal with barriers before 2xwarp becomes available, unless you're going to argue that 60 less damage is somehow enough to make it useless as a barrier breaking ability.

Isn't the entire point of this argument, logistics?   Is any side claiming that the other is USELESS?

If by "other problems" you mean, "actually playing the game on insanity", then yes. I don't know what game you're playing, but pretty much any enemy with a rapid fire weapon can drop my shields in about a second or two of sustained fire. And there's almost always more than one enemy. And they almost concentrate their (perfectly accurate) fire on you.

So when you claim that barrier is good for about five seconds of pounding I have to wonder what you're talking about, because that would imply that regular shields would last about 2.5 seconds, which is an _eternity_ outside of adrenaline rush on insanity.

If regular sheilds last 2.5 seconds, wouldn't double regular sheilds last five seconds, what I said?    What the hell did you just write?

Modifié par newcomplex, 19 février 2010 - 03:18 .

[sinosleep]

newcomplex wrote...
If regular sheilds last 2.5 seconds, wouldn't double regular sheilds last five seconds, what I said?    What the hell did you just write?

He's not saying they last that long, he's saying that YOU'RE IMPLYING they last that long by saying barrier would last 5 seconds. And I have to agree with him, no way in hell does barrier last that long, and no way in hell does a standard shield last that long on insanity either. 

Modifié par sinosleep, 19 février 2010 - 03:22 .

[newcomplex]

padaE wrote...

The thing with the adept is, when an enemy in under effect by singulary you dont need to shoot.

If you don't shoot, then how are you able to factor in AP ammos 70% damage against flesh you ****?

Then its just 70% armor compared to 50% against armor and 50% against biotics.    Pretty sure you can't argue that.

sinosleep wrote...
He's
not saying they last that long, he's saying that YOU'RE IMPLYING they
last that long by saying barrier would last 5 seconds. And I have to
agree with him, no way in hell does barrier last that long, and no way
in hell does a standard shield last that long on insanity
either. 

My bad then.   Hes right too.   Maybe he missed it, but I revised my positon on the duration of barrier to 3 seconds, pretty accurate when firing out of cover.    Which is 1500 more damage with revenant fully upgrades.    Which is better then AP ammo is going to do.    


Also, why the **** is "twat" censored?  Seriously?  

Modifié par newcomplex, 19 février 2010 - 03:40 .

[Athenau]

 

The space between collector ship and IFF is halfway through the game?    Or you can get thane first and leave illiium, only to come back to it...that is optimal, but it kind of breaks the game as an RPG for me.

Why are you pretending that the main story takes up the bulk of the game?  When Ilium becomes available you still have all the loyalty missions and probably a bunch of side quests left as well.  Those dwarf the amount of playtime in the storyline missions.

Isn't the entire point of this argument, logistics?   Is any side claiming that the other is USELESS?

Well as far as I can tell you're claiming that having more anti-armor powers somehow makes armor easier to deal with than barriers before Ilium, which seems rather odd since before Ilium you only encounter barriers on Horizon (ok, one dude on Omega, but who's counting), and if you can still get one anti-barrier ability on each teammate (more doesn't help because of the cooldown) if you really care that much.

If regular sheilds last 2.5 seconds, wouldn't double regular sheilds last five seconds, what I said?    What the hell did you just write?

Someone already covered this, so I'm going to be nice and refer you to that.

[apk117]

Ulysseslotro wrote...

The collector missions aren't harder because of the collectors which are basically just generic gun toting enemies, they're harder because of husk/abomination bumrushes, scions, and harbinger blowing you out of cover with his glowing ball of death.

Husks are easy  lvl 1 concussive = dead.  3-4 shots from Scimitar = dead.  2-3 seconds with flamethrower = dead.

Widow + HAR = Scions are no threat

Widow + HAR = Harbinger goes down fast

Barrier = Counter for Harbinger glowing ball of anti-cover

class dismissed!

Revenant > Widow, this has been established. Dodging 'glowing ball of anti-cover' > wasting 2 possible Adrenaline Rushes on a power VASTLY inferior to AP Ammo. class dismissed.

Modifié par apk117, 19 février 2010 - 03:45 .

[mundus66]

Warp armor is better if your infiltrator trust me. 20% damage vs something you are already strong against, or 50% damage vs the only thing you are weak against. Also imo vanguard and soldier can do without it since they have inferno ammo which is better for some things. And only does 10% less damage vs armor. So no, its not the best for EVERY class. But its definitely the best overall.

[Atmosfear3]

To be perfectly honest, my infiltrator insanity run was played the entire game up to the suicide mission with AP ammo (where I then switched to warp since I would be fighting collectors exclusively at that point). SMGs natural effectiveness against barriers and shields makes fighting anything that has a barrier a non-factor. Several bursts of the SMG and the barrier is at 25% if not completely busted assuming I'm soloing down a target because my team is dead.

Anyways, back to the point of this topic. I don't fully agree with the OP but I do believe that this particular topic needs to be separated by classes. AP ammo isn't useful for certain classes but amazing for some. Saying it is the best for every class is simply too biased and a little short-sighted.

[newcomplex]

Athenau wrote...
Why are you pretending that the main story takes up the bulk of the game?  When Ilium becomes available you still have all the loyalty missions and probably a bunch of side quests left as well.  Those dwarf the amount of playtime in the storyline missions.

Perhaps your experience may differ, but after getting Thane and Samara, I had already 25 hours into the game.   I fnished with 32, all crewmates and squadmates alive.    Certainly not half.   

Well as far as I can tell you're claiming that having more anti-armor powers somehow makes armor easier to deal with than barriers before Ilium, which seems rather odd since before Ilium you only encounter barriers on Horizon (ok, one dude on Omega, but who's counting), and if you can still get one anti-barrier ability on each teammate (more doesn't help because of the cooldown) if you really care that much.

Which is a lot?   Two main missions, one very difficult for many players?   Its not like you fought armor a lot from that perspective either, you've fougt what?   Some vorcha and krogan on omega, and like, twelve krogan on the grunt recruiment mission?

--------
What are we even argueing anymore...I think we've gone completely OT.   The point is that AP ammo is inferior to warp.    To argue it is the best for all classes is laughable.   

Summing up points:

Warp Ammo is pretty clear cut better.   I would argue that dominate is better then it on the adept and possibly vanguard, while sheild is better on soldier, but its irrelevent, because warp is easier to prove because it is a much closer analogue.

You scarcely even fight exlusively armored opponents upon horizon and beyond, save tuchanka, and random critters you encounter on your side missions which are mind numbingly easy and die in two shots anyway.     That means it essentially becomes a glorified shredder ammo, that happens to work better on ymir mechs, and scions.   (And the occasional blue suns commando)

Warp Ammo is rediculously good for the Adept, unless you want to say that adepts primarily use powers for enemies in the health range.   In which warp wins again, as the only way AP ammo doesn't suck balls and is even considered an alternative is because it does more damage against health as well.

Engineers have both a way of clearing sheilds and clearing armor with a single skill.    What they lack is a way to clear biotics, which both reave and warp ammo fulfill nicely, and AP ammo completely misses the mark.    Their is almost no reason an engineer would be legit shooting normal sheilded target.

Infiltrators can do 4x damage against armor, or 1500 in one shot with widow.     That takes out collector generals in two to three shots, same with ymir mechs or commandos.    At that damage range, the 20% increase fails to generate noticeable increase in damage.    It will be two to three shots 90% of the time even with that increase in damage.    However, they have no way of boosting their damage against biotic barriers, in which warp ammo comes in nicely.  

Vanguards, Sentinels and Soldiers rely on the previous fact that biotic enemies encountered far more frequently lafter early game, and are clearly a greater threat.

AP ammo is only better in those context against scions blue suns commandos, and ymir mechs.   However, Soldiers and vangaurds get inciendary ammo, which is almost as effective as the above.    Soldiers exlusively ALSO get disruptor ammo.   

That leaves the sentinel.  So if you suffer inordinate trouble against those, and are unable to kill them, AP ammo is the best for sentinel.    Otherwise, the most optimal ammo is clearly warp ammo in terms of effiiency, you will be doing damage more efficiently more consistently throughout the game.    AP ammo is certainly powerful for niche usage though.  

For all other classes, AP ammo is plain sub-optimal.  Their isn't much of a case to be made.    Though thiers nothing wrong with using it, i would use it myself on the Engineer and Infiltrator because I don't like getting biotics on non biotic characters, breaks immersion.        

It is only considerably viable on Sentinels who want to maximize their preformance against Scions, Ymir mechs, Commandos, and most blue sun bosses.    Out of those, scions are a legit concern, so it is a consierably optimal choice.   For anyone else...no.



edit:

Another point.    warp ammo is the only ammo in the game that hits two different armor types (plus health yay ).    This is incredibly effective for vanguards and infiltrators, or anyone who uses shotguns or snipers for a clear cut, mathematical reason, not just a "I can cc dems luls".    

I do 250 damage on a 200 health/200 barrier (idk numbers, example) basic enemy in a single shot (something only vanguards and snipers do), with AP ammo.  The remaining 50 damage gets boosted by 70%, getting a whole additional 35 damage.    I do the same, with warp ammo, and get 175 added damage right off the bat.    This leaves me with 225 damage going into sheilds.    That my friends, is a kill.    As you can see clearly, the additional 50% damage to biotics makes up for the -20% on damage on health several fold.     In fact, its 285 damage versus 425 damage, a difference of not 15% as the decriptions imply, but ~70%.    Damage that is applied onto health through sheilding are counted as a seperate source of damage.   


I conceed the numbers are a big weighted to support my point more clearly, but they do not even out unless I am doing as much points to health as I am to their barriers.    In which case my enemy is dead.

Modifié par newcomplex, 19 février 2010 - 05:52 .

[mundus66]

After reading newcomplex post i though back of how i play every class and i have come to this conclusion.

Soldier and vanguard as a stated earlier has inferno ammo, so its unnecessary especially since its a pre talent to cryo ammo. Which i know is not that hot, but there are definitely situations, where i would rather have squad cryo ammo over 10% extra damage.

For engineer and adept warp ammo is better seriously. Engineer has good armor piercing with incinerate but no barrier piercing to speak of. And adept use pull or singularity once their shields are down so warp ammo is definitely better.

Infiltrator is THEE class when it comes to health and armor damage so warp ammo is better AGAIN. Which leaves us with sentinel which yeah MAYBE armor piercing rounds are better, but just maybe. Its between warp and armor piercing and imo warp is slightly better.

[mundus66]

apk117 wrote...

Revenant > Widow, this has been established. Dodging 'glowing ball of
anti-cover' > wasting 2 possible Adrenaline Rushes on a power VASTLY
inferior to AP Ammo. class dismissed.

Vindicator > revenant and widow is the best weapon in the game but i cba to go in to details.

Modifié par mundus66, 19 février 2010 - 04:20 .

[padaE]

mundus66 wrote...

After reading newcomplex post i though back of how i play every class and i have come to this conclusion.

Soldier and vanguard as a stated earlier has inferno ammo, so its unnecessary especially since its a pre talent to cryo ammo. Which i know is not that hot, but there are definitely situations, where i would rather have squad cryo ammo over 10% extra damage.

For engineer and adept warp ammo is better seriously. Engineer has good armor piercing with incinerate but no barrier piercing to speak of. And adept use pull or singularity once their shields are down so warp ammo is definitely better.

Infiltrator is THEE class when it comes to health and armor damage so warp ammo is better AGAIN. Which leaves us with sentinel which yeah MAYBE armor piercing rounds are better, but just maybe. Its between warp and armor piercing and imo warp is slightly better.

.
I would definly agree with this if there wasn't two teammates by your side in the game. 

[newcomplex]

padaE wrote...

mundus66 wrote...

After reading newcomplex post i though back of how i play every class and i have come to this conclusion.

Soldier and vanguard as a stated earlier has inferno ammo, so its unnecessary especially since its a pre talent to cryo ammo. Which i know is not that hot, but there are definitely situations, where i would rather have squad cryo ammo over 10% extra damage.

For engineer and adept warp ammo is better seriously. Engineer has good armor piercing with incinerate but no barrier piercing to speak of. And adept use pull or singularity once their shields are down so warp ammo is definitely better.

Infiltrator is THEE class when it comes to health and armor damage so warp ammo is better AGAIN. Which leaves us with sentinel which yeah MAYBE armor piercing rounds are better, but just maybe. Its between warp and armor piercing and imo warp is slightly better.

.
I would definly agree with this if there wasn't two teammates by your side in the game. 

Squad warp recharges at abysmal rates (nine or twelve, both terrible), as opposed to your ~3.5 upgraded.     Even if both your squaddies get warp, you still cannot cast it as frequently as you getting reave.     Warp Ammo is just statistically better ignoring all the bonuses, and has the added effect on the engineer of stripping barriers quicker, as a bonus, something you really need.

Give it up.   

retard.    

[Ulysseslotro]

apk117 wrote...

Revenant > Widow, this has been established. Dodging 'glowing ball of anti-cover' > wasting 2 possible Adrenaline Rushes on a power VASTLY inferior to AP Ammo. class dismissed.

Yeah let me see you dodge him when your hiding behind cover 2-3 times longer and he is right ontop of you.  = You got owned + reload.  Me I pop Barrier + Shotgun time = he's dead

AP = behind cover more, this lowers the kill time you need before retreating to cover.  It does not increase how much time you can kill with before you are game over.  Barrier does increase the time you can kill out of cover.

Rev is ok but 20 bullets = Widow shot, 30 = its headshot.  You will likely miss many bullets, so lets add on 5 bullets that miss completely 35 shots = your out of cover longer than someone with Widow.  35 x 13 = 455  You need to unload your entire ammo clip in order to do 13 headshots from a Widow PLUS all the extra time you'll need to get off 442 bullets more than Widow in order to do the same amount of damage.  Rev = medium range weapon.  The closer you are to Harbinger, the faster you get owned.

Widow = more dead opponents like collecters, less harbingers assuming control, less time aiming, less time killing, less time out of cover, less injuries = even more time to kill.  One shot one kill.
Barrier = counter and more time to kill with headshots

There is plenty of ammo to headshot 80% of everything.  The other 20% should be easy with all the other guns a soldier has. 

Modifié par Ulysseslotro, 19 février 2010 - 04:42 .

[padaE]

Squad warp recharges at abysmal rates (nine or twelve, both terrible), as opposed to your ~3.5 upgraded.     Even if both your squaddies get warp, you still cannot cast it as frequently as you getting reave.     Warp Ammo is just statistically better ignoring all the bonuses, and has the added effect on the engineer of stripping barriers quicker, as a bonus, something you really need.

Give it up.   

retard.    

.
You are saying over and over again that Warp Ammo is better than AP ammo and I have already said that is not and why. Even in the topic itself.
.
But you can think Warp Ammo is better, even if it's wrong. I don't care. 

[WillieStyle]

The dps your squadmates' powers can do to barriers >>> the dps your squadmates' powers can do to armor. I'm not sure where all this fear of barriers is coming from.

In my opinion, the only reason to consider Warp Ammo over Tungsten Ammo is if you can keep enemies "affected by Biotics" for ~30% of time you fight them. If not, Tungsten is clearly better.

Modifié par WillieStyle, 19 février 2010 - 05:12 .

[Peer of the Empire]

I like your vanguard write up.

[mundus66]

padaE wrote...

mundus66 wrote...

After reading newcomplex post i though back of how i play every class and i have come to this conclusion.

Soldier and vanguard as a stated earlier has inferno ammo, so its unnecessary especially since its a pre talent to cryo ammo. Which i know is not that hot, but there are definitely situations, where i would rather have squad cryo ammo over 10% extra damage.

For engineer and adept warp ammo is better seriously. Engineer has good armor piercing with incinerate but no barrier piercing to speak of. And adept use pull or singularity once their shields are down so warp ammo is definitely better.

Infiltrator is THEE class when it comes to health and armor damage so warp ammo is better AGAIN. Which leaves us with sentinel which yeah MAYBE armor piercing rounds are better, but just maybe. Its between warp and armor piercing and imo warp is slightly better.

.
I would definly agree with this if there wasn't two teammates by your side in the game. 

Well on my own character i always have the single talent. I have a squad mate like Garrus or Grunt and let them have squad version on. So yeah ammo piercing rounds are great, but we are talking about a bonus talent here where i rather have the individual version than the squad version. And vs anything but bosses squad cryo ammo wins for your squad anyway.

[WillieStyle]

Ulysseslotro wrote...

apk117 wrote...

Revenant > Widow, this has been established. Dodging 'glowing ball of anti-cover' > wasting 2 possible Adrenaline Rushes on a power VASTLY inferior to AP Ammo. class dismissed.

Yeah let me see you dodge him when your hiding behind cover 2-3 times longer and he is right ontop of you.  = You got owned + reload.  Me I pop Barrier + Shotgun time = he's dead

AP = behind cover more, this lowers the kill time you need before retreating to cover.  It does not increase how much time you can kill with before you are game over.  Barrier does increase the time you can kill out of cover.

Sigh! Barrier increases you shield duration by 1-2 secs.  And it puts all other abilities on cooldown for 9-12 secs. 
Charging twice will give you more survivability than using Barrier.  Using Adrenaline Rush gives you more survivability than Barrier (because it reduces all enemy dps by 50-70%).  I just don't understand this fascination with Barrier.  Do people not understand oppurtunity costs?

Rev is ok but 20 bullets = Widow shot, 30 = its headshot.  You will likely miss many bullets, so lets add on 5 bullets that miss completely 35 shots = your out of cover longer than someone with Widow.  35 x 13 = 455  You need to unload your entire ammo clip in order to do 13 headshots from a Widow PLUS all the extra time you'll need to get off 442 bullets more than Widow in order to do the same amount of damage.  Rev = medium range weapon.  The closer you are to Harbinger, the faster you get owned.

I love the Widow as much as any sane man can, but all of this is wrong.  You are DRAMATICALLY underestimating the dps of the Revenant.

Barrier = counter and more time to kill with headshots

Barrier = less Tactical Cloak uptime = Less damage done AND more damage taken from enemies who can see you.
Barrier = less Adrenaline Rush uptime = Less damage done AND more damage from enemies who aren't slowed down.
Barrier = fewer Charges per unit time = Less damage done, less maneuvering around the battle field AND more damage taken from enemies because your shields don't recharge as quickly.

[Graunt]

newcomplex wrote...

padaE wrote...

The thing with the adept is, when an enemy in under effect by singulary you dont need to shoot.

If you don't shoot, then how are you able to factor in AP ammos 70% damage against flesh you ****?

Then its just 70% armor compared to 50% against armor and 50% against biotics.    Pretty sure you can't argue that.

sinosleep wrote...
He's
not saying they last that long, he's saying that YOU'RE IMPLYING they
last that long by saying barrier would last 5 seconds. And I have to
agree with him, no way in hell does barrier last that long, and no way
in hell does a standard shield last that long on insanity
either. 

My bad then.   Hes right too.   Maybe he missed it, but I revised my positon on the duration of barrier to 3 seconds, pretty accurate when firing out of cover.    Which is 1500 more damage with revenant fully upgrades.    Which is better then AP ammo is going to do.    


Also, why the **** is "twat" censored?  Seriously?  

I'm not going to go back and reread all the pages to find your argument, but are you suggesting that the damage Barrier absorbs means more time to shoot before having to crouch?  If so, ok maybe, but then think about how many cooldowns over time you're wasting having to recast Barrier instead of being able to use Adrenaline Rush.  Ammo is a passive that's always on and doesn't eat up but 3 seconds when you really need to switch ammo types.

Anyways, back to the point of this topic. I don't fully agree with
the OP but I do believe that this particular topic needs to be
separated by classes. AP ammo isn't useful for certain classes but
amazing for some. Saying it is the best for every class is simply too
biased and a little short-sighted.

About the only class it's not the best passive for would be an Adept.  Barrier or Energy Drain would probably be the best for them.  Engineer may also have something better, but I'm not sure what, especially with how they really need all of their cooldowns to be free.  Something that is always active and contributing in some way is usually better than something eating into a cooldown over and over, even situationally.  Vanguards don't really need AP or Warp ammo, but Warp ammo may be better for some missions and you can easily spec in and out of it.

Modifié par Graunt, 19 février 2010 - 05:15 .

[newcomplex]

padaE wrote...
.
You are saying over and over again that Warp Ammo is better than AP ammo and I have already said that is not and why. Even in the topic itself.
.
But you can think Warp Ammo is better, even if it's wrong. I don't care. 

No, you haven't retard, I've refuted your point like seven times throughout the topic.   You actually have to defend the points you set out, because they provably false.

AP
Ammo does more damage than Warp Ammo, however the later does bonus
damage to Barriers[and targets affected by biotics, which you forgot to mention

Except for your ommission of biotics, this is true.   

What happens is that is better to do more
damage to armor and healthy than do less damage in both + barrier. That
is beacuse the strongest enemys have much more armor and healthy than
barriers.

The strongest enemies have equal amounts of barriers and armor.    This is a proven fact.  

Specifically, Harbringers (encountered ever fight) are affected more by warp ammo, but scions are more affected by AP ammo.    Krogan Warlords are more affected by warp ammo, but ymir mechs are more affected by AP ammo.    Blue suns commandos are more affected by warp ammo, but eclipse merc commandos are more effected by warp ammo.   

You encounter more Harbringers then you do Ymir mechs, Scions and Blue sun commandos combined.  

These are all the nonunique powerful enemies you fight in the game.     Every single collector is more effected by warp ammo then AP ammo, and they are on average, the most consistently fought and "toughest" basic enemy in the game.    In contrast, the Blood Pack appear only once in tuchanka after horizon.     Husks use armor.    Other armor predominant users are so rarely encountered they are not worth mentioning, such as Vixen, which are easy, and Varren, which you can melee to death.   

Also, its very easy to take down a barrier, even with AP ammo.
I never faced an enemy that I needed badly take its barriers down.

Not only is this comment entirely it a opinion, it is an opinion that can be proven retarded.    This is because Armor is the most easiest to take down sheild in the game for most classes, while barriers prove to be the hardest.    Their is no class where barriers are easier to take down then armor.   At best, they are equal.   

Taking down barrier is easy. And considering the strongest enemys,
making more damage to armor is better than make less damage in more
things.

This contradicts your thesis of 

When you choose AP ammo over the other you are making your character themost effective as it can posibly be

As "effective as it can possibly be" means you are doing the most amount of damage to the widest spread of enemies.    AP ammo only is directly better to warp ammo against specifically Scions and Ymir mechs, and unique bosses.    This isn't overall effectiveness, this is specialization.    

WillieStyle wrote...

The dps your squadmates' powers can
do to barriers >>> the dps your squadmates' powers can do to
armor. I'm not sure where all this fear of barriers is coming from.

Huh?   What?    Concussive shot breaks 2/3s of a barrier away.    Warp and reave take it all.   No ammo powers save warp ammo give bonus on it.  On the other hand, inciendary ammo, warp, reave, inciendary shot, inciendary greneade, and, ironically, garruses armor piercing ammo all recieve bonuss against armor.    

Sigh! Barrier increases you shield duration by 1-2 secs.  And it
puts all other abilities on cooldown for 9-12 secs. 
Charging twice
will give you more survivability than using Barrier.  Using Adrenaline
Rush gives you more survivability than Barrier (because it reduces all
enemy dps by 50-70%).  I just don't understand this fascination with
Barrier.  Do people not understand oppurtunity costs?

Do you not understand oppurtunity costs?   Because thats what its costing while you sit behind a corner with a 500 dps rev machine gun while you wait for your sheild to regen so you can use adrenaline rush and not die.   

Also, it is irrelevent to this topic.    This isn't about barrier on vanguard, (which I disagree with), much less barrier on soldier.    This is about AP ammo being the best skill in the game according to some illiterate retard on the internet.  

Modifié par newcomplex, 19 février 2010 - 05:24 .

[padaE]

mundus66 wrote...

padaE wrote...

mundus66 wrote...

After reading newcomplex post i though back of how i play every class and i have come to this conclusion.

Soldier and vanguard as a stated earlier has inferno ammo, so its unnecessary especially since its a pre talent to cryo ammo. Which i know is not that hot, but there are definitely situations, where i would rather have squad cryo ammo over 10% extra damage.

For engineer and adept warp ammo is better seriously. Engineer has good armor piercing with incinerate but no barrier piercing to speak of. And adept use pull or singularity once their shields are down so warp ammo is definitely better.

Infiltrator is THEE class when it comes to health and armor damage so warp ammo is better AGAIN. Which leaves us with sentinel which yeah MAYBE armor piercing rounds are better, but just maybe. Its between warp and armor piercing and imo warp is slightly better.

.
I would definly agree with this if there wasn't two teammates by your side in the game. 

Well on my own character i always have the single talent. I have a squad mate like Garrus or Grunt and let them have squad version on. So yeah ammo piercing rounds are great, but we are talking about a bonus talent here where i rather have the individual version than the squad version. And vs anything but bosses squad cryo ammo wins for your squad anyway.

.
I think you misunderstood me. I didn't mean that squad ammo power is better or needed. What I meant is that having the right squadmates with the right powers to take down defenses makes AP ammo a better choice than Warp ammo.

[Graunt]

newcomplex wrote...

Do you not understand oppurtunity costs?   Because thats what its
costing while you sit behind a corner with a 500 dps rev machine gun
while you wait for your sheild to regen so you can use adrenaline rush
and not die.   

Also, it is irrelevent to this topic. 

Not sure what game you're playing, but I have actually tried running around with a rank 4 shield on as a Soldier and it was a waste of time.  As soon as it's gone you either have to recast it or you're back to square one with either no shields crouching or using AR with no passive boost.  It was much slower overall.



 


 
 

[newcomplex]

padaE wrote...

mundus66 wrote...

padaE wrote...

mundus66 wrote...

After reading newcomplex post i though back of how i play every class and i have come to this conclusion.

Soldier and vanguard as a stated earlier has inferno ammo, so its unnecessary especially since its a pre talent to cryo ammo. Which i know is not that hot, but there are definitely situations, where i would rather have squad cryo ammo over 10% extra damage.

For engineer and adept warp ammo is better seriously. Engineer has good armor piercing with incinerate but no barrier piercing to speak of. And adept use pull or singularity once their shields are down so warp ammo is definitely better.

Infiltrator is THEE class when it comes to health and armor damage so warp ammo is better AGAIN. Which leaves us with sentinel which yeah MAYBE armor piercing rounds are better, but just maybe. Its between warp and armor piercing and imo warp is slightly better.

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I would definly agree with this if there wasn't two teammates by your side in the game. 

Well on my own character i always have the single talent. I have a squad mate like Garrus or Grunt and let them have squad version on. So yeah ammo piercing rounds are great, but we are talking about a bonus talent here where i rather have the individual version than the squad version. And vs anything but bosses squad cryo ammo wins for your squad anyway.

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I think you misunderstood me. I didn't mean that squad ammo power is better or needed. What I meant is that having the right squadmates with the right powers to take down defenses makes AP ammo a better choice than Warp ammo.

Your taking two squad mates that do nothing but spam warp 24/7 when you can do the same thing 40% more efficiently by taking reave and spaming it, a 3.5 cd versus a 9 second cd. 

Seriously, stop posting retard.

Modifié par newcomplex, 19 février 2010 - 05:27 .

[WillieStyle]

newcomplex wrote...
Do you not understand oppurtunity costs?   Because thats what its costing while you sit behind a corner with a 500 dps rev machine gun while you wait for your sheild to regen so you can use adrenaline rush and not die.   

What?!  The choice is between using Barrier or Using Adrenaline Rush.  Using Adrenaline Rush will allow you to do more damage AND take less damage than using Barrier.

Also, it is irrelevent to this topic.   

It is relevant to this topic.  Others are suggesting that activated powers like Barrier are better bonus skills.  This is clearly false for most classes.  For Soldiers in particular, active defensive skills like Barrier are terrible because they put Adrenaline Rush on cooldown (reducing the bonus damage you get) while doing LESS to increase survivability than Adrenaline Rush does.  Barrier is a lose/lose proposition for a Soldier.  There is virtually NEVER a time when using a cooldown on Barrier is better than using it on Adrenaline Rush.