211 réponses à ce sujet

[newcomplex]

WillieStyle wrote...

newcomplex wrote...
Do you not understand oppurtunity costs?   Because thats what its costing while you sit behind a corner with a 500 dps rev machine gun while you wait for your sheild to regen so you can use adrenaline rush and not die.   

What?!  The choice is between using Barrier or Using Adrenaline Rush.  Using Adrenaline Rush will allow you to do more damage AND take less damage than using Barrier.

Also, it is irrelevent to this topic.   

It is relevant to this topic.  Others are suggesting that activated powers like Barrier are better bonus skills.  This is clearly false for most classes.  For Soldiers in particular, active defensive skills like Barrier are terrible because they put Adrenaline Rush on cooldown (reducing the bonus damage you get) while doing LESS to increase survivability than Adrenaline Rush does.  Barrier is a lose/lose proposition for a Soldier.  There is virtually NEVER a time when using a cooldown on Barrier is better than using it on Adrenaline Rush.

Whatever.    I concede that because I don't feel like debating it.    Even if you do that, warp ammo is still better, especially because your still going to need to sink points into random crap anyway as a soldier, and inciendary already gives you 60% versus armor.    


As a rule of the thumb, warp ammo>>>>>>>>>>>>>>AP ammo>>>>>>>>Shredder ammo.

I wouldn't agree that warp ammo is the best selective skill for all classes, but I don't feel like getting into that now.   

And honestly, I might be completely wrong about the soldier.     w/e, AP ammo being inferior to warp isn't debatable.  

Modifié par newcomplex, 19 février 2010 - 05:32 .

[WillieStyle]

Your taking two squad mates that do nothing but spam warp 24/7 when you can do the same thing 40% more efficiently by taking reave and spaming it, a 3.5 cd versus a 9 second cd. And you didnt address any of my other points.

Every cooldown spent on Reave is one not spent on Adrenaline Rush or Tactical Cloak or Charge.

The oppurtunity costs of active bonus powers is too high (although in the case of Reave its still debateable whereas Barrier is just crap).



Tungsten Ammo gives you a dps boost without costing you global cooldwons that could be used on valuable class skills. That's why it's so valuable.

[newcomplex]

WillieStyle wrote...

Your taking two squad mates that do nothing but spam warp 24/7 when you can do the same thing 40% more efficiently by taking reave and spaming it, a 3.5 cd versus a 9 second cd. And you didnt address any of my other points.

Every cooldown spent on Reave is one not spent on Adrenaline Rush or Tactical Cloak or Charge.
The oppurtunity costs of active bonus powers is too high (although in the case of Reave its still debateable whereas Barrier is just crap).

Tungsten Ammo gives you a dps boost without costing you global cooldwons that could be used on valuable class skills. That's why it's so valuable.

Except warp ammo gives you a higher DPS boost on a more vital and wider selection of enemies, and armor is easier to punch through.    For instance, your revenant is doing 20% more damage against armor, to say the least.    Then you got a free AP ammo anyway in the form of inciendary ammo.    Finally, I wasn't suggesting getting reave on soldiers because you already have a goddam concussive shot that deals 340 damage against barriers should you choose to use it, which I know you won't because its a DPS loss.     Which is why your getting warp ammo.    

nutthin in concussive. (dps lost amirite?   Certainly if reave is a dps loss, this does even less)

Inciendary for mass armor, specifically scions and maybe ymirs, when its worth switching.     Your going to max this anyway because you don't have anything other then special, soldier and adren boost to max otherwise anyway.

Warp ammo for everything else.

A single point in disruptor does more damage against geth substantially, leaving only the blue suns and the small mechs in which AP would excel.       Against krogan and vorcha, your going to need inciendary ANYWAY as a soldier, because you lack a way to stop regen effectively.    This changes as you get your crazy good ship weapons, but at that point, you stop fighting krogan/vorcha.  

Spam adrenaline.    You do great damage against everything.

This is going by your logic here.

Modifié par newcomplex, 19 février 2010 - 05:47 .

[WillieStyle]

You encounter more Harbringers then you do Ymir mechs, Scions and Blue sun commandos combined.

You and I are clearly talking about different games.

[Ulysseslotro]

WillieStyle wrote...

Sigh! Barrier increases you shield duration by 1-2 secs.  And it puts all other abilities on cooldown for 9-12 secs. 
Charging twice will give you more survivability than using Barrier.  Using Adrenaline Rush gives you more survivability than Barrier (because it reduces all enemy dps by 50-70%).  I just don't understand this fascination with Barrier.  Do people not understand oppurtunity costs?

No, you HAR until you are vastly injured then you use Barrier.  With Barrier and Widow you pop out and snipe the injured people.

Basically you would do this

HAR + Headshot  (1/2 shield gone)
HAR + Headshot  (shield gone)
HAR + Headshot  (1/2 health gone)
You need to heal but if you have Barrier
pop Barrier
Headshot  (1/3 shield gone)
Headshot  (2/3 shield gone)
Headshot  no shields
Now its time to heal and there is no cooldown because you've been fighting those 9 seconds.

You've already killed 2-3 opponents by the time you NEED Barrier up.  Therefor you recieve >50% less damage because of fallen opponents.  You use Barrier instead of waiting for health/shield regen and kill off some injured ones your allies have been working on.  You can oneshot most injured guys with a headshot.  I can kill like 6 opponents without waiting around to heal.  Can you do the same?

If you can't unload half your Rev mag before healing then your point is mute.  That is what it would take to = 6 shots from Widow.

class Dismissed!

Modifié par Ulysseslotro, 19 février 2010 - 05:38 .

[SmilingMirror]

there is no "best" power, its just what situation you roll in. AP ammo is a pretty decent talent on insanity 70% time regardless of the fact that warp ammo kills Harbringer quicker.

Shield powers are also very effective in this game, the whole "shields go off in seconds on insanity" is a pointless arguement. I'd rather have my shields come off in that one second than my health bar. Secondly, you can recharge your shield up to full at any time with a shield power, even at rank 1. that means you can duck around cover. Lastly, if your playing soldier or have no shield upgrades, of course your shields will come off in a second. double of nothing is still zero.

Anyone who doesn't agree with this is a bad kid /thread

Modifié par SmilingMirror, 19 février 2010 - 05:40 .

[newcomplex]

WillieStyle wrote...

You encounter more Harbringers then you do Ymir mechs, Scions and Blue sun commandos combined.

You and I are clearly talking about different games.

You encounter harbringers on every single encounter with the collects since halway through eden prime.    You fight scions ~5-7 times, ymir mechs 5-7 times, and commandos 5-7 times.   I'm pretty sure you fight collectors in general more then 15-21 times.    Also, more then 1 harbringer can pop every battle.  

You want to give me a estimate of how much you fight ymirs?    

Modifié par newcomplex, 19 février 2010 - 05:41 .

[padaE]

WillieStyle wrote...

Your taking two squad mates that do nothing but spam warp 24/7 when you can do the same thing 40% more efficiently by taking reave and spaming it, a 3.5 cd versus a 9 second cd. And you didnt address any of my other points.

Every cooldown spent on Reave is one not spent on Adrenaline Rush or Tactical Cloak or Charge.
The oppurtunity costs of active bonus powers is too high (although in the case of Reave its still debateable whereas Barrier is just crap).

Tungsten Ammo gives you a dps boost without costing you global cooldwons that could be used on valuable class skills. That's why it's so valuable.

.
Amen.

[newcomplex]

padaE wrote...

WillieStyle wrote...

Your taking two squad mates that do nothing but spam warp 24/7 when you can do the same thing 40% more efficiently by taking reave and spaming it, a 3.5 cd versus a 9 second cd. And you didnt address any of my other points.

Every cooldown spent on Reave is one not spent on Adrenaline Rush or Tactical Cloak or Charge.
The oppurtunity costs of active bonus powers is too high (although in the case of Reave its still debateable whereas Barrier is just crap).

Tungsten Ammo gives you a dps boost without costing you global cooldwons that could be used on valuable class skills. That's why it's so valuable.

.
Amen.

Thats arguments for taking an ammo power, not specifically AP ammo you nitwit.   

[Graunt]

WillieStyle wrote...

You encounter more Harbringers then you do Ymir mechs, Scions and Blue sun commandos combined.

You and I are clearly talking about different games.

Wow, no doubt unless you're just really really slow at killing collectors and intentionally let harbingers spawn.  Off the top of my head I think I normally encounter maybe ten harbingers total, if that much through an entire playthrough.  

Regardless of that howerver I don't really believe that AP is strictly superior to Warp in all cases and would argue that it's vastly inferior on any collector mission.  Unless someone has math to show that the advantage AP has on organics outweighs the bonus Warp has on Barriers + organics, especially with something like a Revenant or Widow.

Modifié par Graunt, 19 février 2010 - 05:47 .

[newcomplex]

Graunt wrote...

WillieStyle wrote...

You encounter more Harbringers then you do Ymir mechs, Scions and Blue sun commandos combined.

You and I are clearly talking about different games.

Wow, no doubt unless you're just really really slow at killing collectors and intentionally let harbingers spawn.  Off the top of my head I think I normally encounter maybe ten harbingers total, if that much through an entire playthrough.

Thats fuking impossible considering their are 11 encounters with collectors in the first section of the suicide mission alone.   Collectors spawn as the descent.   I mean, just going through irrefutable facts, their needs to be eight, one for each vent.    Then, their are two collector spawns prior to the first one, and a middle vent will spawn two sets of collectors at seperate occasions.   

Ten if you choose to skip the final guy and rush the vent.    In the next section, their are three spawns, and in the next, another three.    Thats ~16-17 in one misssion alone.   This is assuming you don't fuk up once and let doubles spawn.   

Wow, no doubt unless you're just really really slow at killing
collectors and intentionally let harbingers spawn.  Off the top of my
head I think I normally encounter maybe ten harbingers total, if that
much through an entire playthrough.  

Regardless of that
howerver I don't really believe that AP is strictly superior to Warp in
all cases and would argue that it's vastly inferior on any collector
mission.  Unless someone has math to show that the advantage AP has on
organics outweighs the bonus Warp has on Barriers + organics, especially
with something like a Revenant or Widow.

Not, it doesnt for the revenant, and for the widow, the result is laughable.   See the end of this post for details.    
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/128/index/1292828/6#1304529

Modifié par newcomplex, 19 février 2010 - 05:50 .

[WillieStyle]

Ulysseslotro wrote...

WillieStyle wrote...

Sigh! Barrier increases you shield duration by 1-2 secs.  And it puts all other abilities on cooldown for 9-12 secs. 
Charging twice will give you more survivability than using Barrier.  Using Adrenaline Rush gives you more survivability than Barrier (because it reduces all enemy dps by 50-70%).  I just don't understand this fascination with Barrier.  Do people not understand oppurtunity costs?

No, you HAR until you are vastly injured then you use Barrier.  With Barrier and Widow you pop out and snipe the injured people.

Basically you would do this

HAR + Headshot  (1/2 shield gone)
HAR + Headshot  (shield gone)
HAR + Headshot  (1/2 health gone)
You need to heal but if you have Barrier
pop Barrier
Headshot  (1/3 shield gone)
Headshot  (2/3 shield gone)
Headshot  no shields
Now its time to heal and there is no cooldown because you've been fighting those 9 seconds.

You've already killed 2-3 opponents by the time you NEED Barrier up.  Therefor you recieve >50% less damage because of fallen opponents.  You use Barrier instead of waiting for health/shield regen and kill off some injured ones your allies have been working on.  You can oneshot most injured guys with a headshot.  I can kill like 6 opponents without waiting around to heal.  Can you do the same?

If you can't unload half your Rev mag before healing then your point is mute.  That is what it would take to = 6 shots from Widow.

class Dismissed!

Each of your head shots without HAR did approximately 360-480 less damage than each of my Headshots with HAR.
Also, during AR, I"m taking 50-70% less damage than you are.  Barrier doubles shields.  So with Hardened Adrenaline Rush, the duration of shields when you use Adrenaline Rush is EXACTLY THE SAME as the duraion of your shields when you spam Barrier.  Only you're also getting a +100% damage boost. AND you're taking 50% less health damage. 
Adrenaline Rush >>>> Barrier. This is not debateable.

[Graunt]

newcomplex wrote...

Graunt wrote...

WillieStyle wrote...

You encounter more Harbringers then you do Ymir mechs, Scions and Blue sun commandos combined.

You and I are clearly talking about different games.

Wow, no doubt unless you're just really really slow at killing collectors and intentionally let harbingers spawn.  Off the top of my head I think I normally encounter maybe ten harbingers total, if that much through an entire playthrough.

Thats fuking impossible considering their are 11 encounters with collectors in the first section of the suicide mission alone.   Collectors spawn as the descent.   I mean, just going through irrefutable facts, their needs to be eight, one for each vent.    Then, their are two collector spawns prior to the first one, and a middle vent will spawn two sets of collectors at seperate occasions.   

Ten if you choose to skip the final guy and rush the vent.    In the next section, their are three spawns, and in the next, another three.    Thats ~17 in a misssion alone.  

Really doesn't seem like there's that many at all, but maybe there is.  Despite that, if you'll notice I was agreeing with you about Warp to a point.  It's not like you can't respec between AP and Warp depending on the mission anyway though.

[sinosleep]

WillieStyle wrote...
Barrier = less Tactical Cloak uptime = Less damage done AND more damage taken from enemies who can see you.
Barrier = less Adrenaline Rush uptime = Less damage done AND more damage from enemies who aren't slowed down.
Barrier = fewer Charges per unit time = Less damage done, less maneuvering around the battle field AND more damage taken from enemies because your shields don't recharge as quickly.

AMEN. The 12 second cool down on the ability absolutely kills it, and even if it was lower, the benefits just aren't worth it.

[G4ymBoy]

Hmmm, does warp ammo stop health regen?

[JaegerBane]

padaE wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...

padaE wrote...
for some reason I thought you were talking about Vanguard and Soldiers. 

I was talking about Vanguards. Last time I checked they had Inciendiary ammo, but no adrenaline rush. 

,
But I do said about rushing towards the enemy.  I guess you missed it.
.
Adrenaline Rush for Soldeir. Charge for Vanguard.

PadaE, I don't think you realise just how absurd your argument actually is. You're saying, effectively, I should take AP ammo, despite the fact I already have ammo type that can handle the bulk of what AP can do, because no other skill is useful - including Reave, because I can make up for an AoE health booster attack by charging.

Are you even thinking through what you're saying here, or are you just arguing for the sake of arguing?

I did actually see your point about Rushng. I just didn't think you were so whacked out thay you were claiming Charge renders Reave so useless that I'd be better off getting a superfluous ammo type..

[Omega-202]

JaegerBane wrote...

padaE wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...

padaE wrote...
for some reason I thought you were talking about Vanguard and Soldiers. 

I was talking about Vanguards. Last time I checked they had Inciendiary ammo, but no adrenaline rush. 

,
But I do said about rushing towards the enemy.  I guess you missed it.
.
Adrenaline Rush for Soldeir. Charge for Vanguard.

PadaE, I don't think you realise just how absurd your argument actually is. You're saying, effectively, I should take AP ammo, despite the fact I already have ammo type that can handle the bulk of what AP can do, because no other skill is useful - including Reave, because I can make up for an AoE health booster attack by charging.

Are you even thinking through what you're saying here, or are you just arguing for the sake of arguing?

I did actually see your point about Rushng. I just didn't think you were so whacked out thay you were claiming Charge renders Reave so useless that I'd be better off getting a superfluous ammo type..

Exactly this.  When you have the option between an extra utility active or an ammo type that is essentially redundant with one you already have, you should always choose the utility power.

Even if Reave or Barrier gets used once a mission, it would yield a greater net benefit than taking Tungsten over Heavy Incendiary Ammo.  

10% damage increase, a loss of health regen stop and no panic when down to health (in my opinion the factor that makes Incendiary BETTER than AP ammo) is in NO WAY worth it.  

[rumination888]

Since my Infiltrator reached the Collector Ship tonight, I figured I should make a video comparing AP and Warp ammo against Collectors. So without further ado, I present the following: www.youtube.com/watch

edit: video is still processing so quality is terrible

Modifié par rumination888, 19 février 2010 - 08:38 .

[Arde5643]

Interesting - w/ AP ammo, it took you 4 shots with uncloaked widow to take down harbinger.



w/ warp ammo, it took you only 3 shots to take down harbinger uncloaked.



So without further ado, then yes, it's concluded, against collectors, warp ammo is better.

It really didn't matter too much for the smaller guys, but against harbinger, it was one less ammo and reloading.



Thx for the vid, rumination.

[Graunt]

rumination888 wrote...

Since my Infiltrator reached the Collector Ship tonight, I figured I should make a video comparing AP and Warp ammo against Collectors. So without further ado, I present the following: www.youtube.com/watch

edit: video is still processing so quality is terrible

I can't tell what's going on ammo wise due to the screen being so small unless it's full, and if it's full it's really terrible looking. It looks like your first run is AP, second run is Warp and I can't tell what the third is, but it looks like Incindiary. It looks like AP and Warp are almost the same as far as bringing down barriers goes, but that little sliver that was left seemed to make the AP ammo require two shots to finish off just that small portion of barrier and 3/4 of the armor, yet Warp two shot the barrier and one shot the armor.  Unless I'm just not seeing it right, Warp > AP for collectors, the end?  Really hard to judge though with a weapon that's putting out so much damage in a single shot vs regular creatures.

[Arde5643]

It seems the warp ammo is only useful in that against lieutenants/sub-bosses with very strong barriers, it basically one shots the barriers or takes it down in two shots.



Widow already does 1.5x damage against armor so the tungsten ammo might be overkill in most cases.



Since the widow will mostly be use to kill harbingers while using SMG or incinerate/warp detonation to kill off the regular enemies, it might be worth it just to save widow ammo.



But yeah, there's really no point in using widow against collectors who aren't collector assassins or harbingers.

[Roxlimn]

Graunt:



I agree that the Widow is really skewing out the damage calcs since it outputs so much damage. That said, the damning thing about Tungsten Ammo for a Soldier is that he also has Inciendary Ammo - so he can use Warp Ammo to bring down Barriers, then use Inciendary Ammo against any remaining Health and Armor for an improved performance versus Tungsten Ammo alone.

[Graunt]

Arde5643 wrote...
Since the widow will mostly be use to kill harbingers while using SMG or incinerate/warp detonation to kill off the regular enemies, it might be worth it just to save widow ammo.

Off topic, but what do you mean about the Warp detonation, just a Samara/Jacob/Jack + random Warp user (i.e. Cheerleader) combo?

Back on topic; personally I've always opted for Warp AMMO specifically for collectors.  I don't care if it *might* do less damage against their health, regardless of what Christina (you know, a developer) says, I find that enemies are way easier to take out after defenses are stripped and whether or not they have less health, due to having so many more options to kill them after they have no defenses it seems like protections are a bigger obstacle.  Getting rid of barriers as fast as possible is all I care about.

Modifié par Graunt, 19 février 2010 - 02:21 .

[rumination888]

Graunt wrote...

I can't tell what's going on ammo wise due to the screen being so small unless it's full, and if it's full it's really terrible looking. It looks like your first run is AP, second run is Warp and I can't tell what the third is, but it looks like Incindiary. It looks like AP and Warp are almost the same as far as bringing down barriers goes, but that little sliver that was left seemed to make the AP ammo require two shots to finish off just that small portion of barrier and 3/4 of the armor, yet Warp two shot the barrier and one shot the armor.  Unless I'm just not seeing it right, Warp > AP for collectors, the end?  Really hard to judge though with a weapon that's putting out so much damage in a single shot vs regular creatures.

Yea, Warp > AP for Collectors. The Incendiary part at the end was more to show that it really didn't matter which ammo you used if you think about it. Look at how much health was remaining after I shot Harbinger 3x with AP Ammo. Imagine if I made cloaked shots. Even SQUAD Incendiary Ammo would kill in the same timeframe.

Modifié par rumination888, 19 février 2010 - 09:08 .

[Arde5643]

Cloak w/ warp ammo will probably kill harbinger in 2 shots.