211 réponses à ce sujet

[Graunt]

rumination888 wrote...

Graunt wrote...

I can't tell what's going on ammo wise due to the screen being so small unless it's full, and if it's full it's really terrible looking. It looks like your first run is AP, second run is Warp and I can't tell what the third is, but it looks like Incindiary. It looks like AP and Warp are almost the same as far as bringing down barriers goes, but that little sliver that was left seemed to make the AP ammo require two shots to finish off just that small portion of barrier and 3/4 of the armor, yet Warp two shot the barrier and one shot the armor.  Unless I'm just not seeing it right, Warp > AP for collectors, the end?  Really hard to judge though with a weapon that's putting out so much damage in a single shot vs regular creatures.

Yea, Warp > AP for Collectors. The Incendiary part at the end was more to show that it really didn't matter which ammo you used if you think about it. Look at how much health was remaining after I shot Harbinger 3x with AP Ammo. Imagine if I made cloaked shots. Even SQUAD Incendiary Ammo would kill in the same timeframe.

Yeah man, I figured the third was a "see, it doesn't matter" bit...at least with a Widow anyway which is why I said it's hard to tell because of how much damage it does.  I wonder if it would be worth just going for squad Warp AMMO and bring Samara for pull, or just get the self Warp AMMO and bring Jack along for squad Warp AMMO, although Jack really is pretty much trash besides the ammo and pull.  She's essentially tied with Jacob for most useless character outside of ammo types and Warp explosion starters.  Yay for stopping husks I guess, but many characters can do that very effectively.

Modifié par Graunt, 19 février 2010 - 02:23 .

[rumination888]

Graunt wrote...

Yeah man, I figured the third was a "see, it doesn't matter" bit...at least with a Widow anyway which is why I said it's hard to tell because of how much damage it does.  I wonder if it would be worth just going for squad Warp and bring Samara for pull, or just get the self Warp and bring Jack along for squad Warp, although Jack really is pretty much trash besides the ammo and pull.  She's essentially tied with Jacob for most useless character outside of ammo types and Warp explosion starters.  Yay for stopping husks I guess, but many characters can do that very effectively.

Jack is awesome precisely because of squad Warp ammo, IMO. One of the best characters to take along against Collectors. No other characters have squad Warp ammo. Poor Jacob shares his ammo type with Grunt.

[Roxlimn]

True, but I find Jacob's Pull more useful than Grunt's Concussive Shot, particularly as a Sentinel, since I don't have Pull natively.

[Graunt]

rumination888 wrote...

Graunt wrote...

Yeah man, I figured the third was a "see, it doesn't matter" bit...at least with a Widow anyway which is why I said it's hard to tell because of how much damage it does.  I wonder if it would be worth just going for squad Warp and bring Samara for pull, or just get the self Warp and bring Jack along for squad Warp, although Jack really is pretty much trash besides the ammo and pull.  She's essentially tied with Jacob for most useless character outside of ammo types and Warp explosion starters.  Yay for stopping husks I guess, but many characters can do that very effectively.

Jack is awesome precisely because of squad Warp ammo, IMO. One of the best characters to take along against Collectors. No other characters have squad Warp ammo. Poor Jacob shares his ammo type with Grunt.

I'm just hesitant on how much of a gain Jack is overall though due to her garbage weapons and damage passives over someone else like Samara who not only can strip barriers right away just like Miranda, but can also use either of the Assault Rifles and pull.  I really don't see Jack + squad AMMO + you having the self only Warp AMMO being better than you taking group Warp AMMO and bringing characters that are stronger by default.

True, but I find Jacob's Pull more useful than Grunt's Concussive Shot,
particularly as a Sentinel, since I don't have Pull natively.

I suppose even garbage characters can find their way into specific groups where your own character is stretched really thin on points as it is (Sentinel/Engineer).  I was thinking more of an Infiltrator or Soldier group.  I agree that pull can be better than conc shot, but then again being a corpse, or using shotguns and pistols over being alive most of the time and being able to use rifles and a superior shotgun kind of trumps that I think.

Modifié par Graunt, 19 février 2010 - 02:24 .

[Roxlimn]

There are no garbage characters. They all have their uses - some are more useful than others depending on your build preference. Characters like Jack, Samara, and Jacob are very useful for Sentinels because they have Pull, which is your only real option for deploying Warp Explosion, since you have neither Pull nor Singularity.



For the Insanity Suicide run, it's best to have someone with Warp, then someone with Pull. Warp to deplete one target's Barrier, then Pull, then deploy your own Warp. After that, it's cleanup. For other groups, Area Overload is better. Depending on your specifications, Miranda or Garrus would be a great choice. A Soldier or Infiltrator tends to operate alone. He doesn't have powers from the squad that can really benefit him, and he doesn't make them better, either. For such classes, coordinating powers between the two squadmates is best.



Having two Warp-deploying squaddies is great - if you're using Shredder or AP Ammo. In this case, you never have to deal with Barriers because your mates will be removing them for you, though how fast that is is questionable, given the squad recharge time for Warp (12 seconds?!?!?). Most of the time, I prefer Pull or Throw on my squaddies - even Concussive Shot. I don't need help making kills, so I would rather they just deployed powers that keep the gunfire off my back. It's just unfortunate that no squaddie has Singularity.

[Graunt]

Roxlimn wrote...

A Soldier or Infiltrator tends to operate alone. He doesn't have powers from the squad that can really benefit him, and he doesn't make them better, either. For such classes, coordinating powers between the two squadmates is best.

Which is kind of why I said that taking group Warp AMMO would probably be the better option and take someone like Samara over Jack/Jacob especially when you are going to have Miranda?

Modifié par Graunt, 19 février 2010 - 02:20 .

[BanditGR]

Roxlimn wrote...
Characters like Jack, Samara, and Jacob are very useful for Sentinels because they have Pull, which is your only real option for deploying Warp Explosion, since you have neither Pull nor Singularity.

Imho, Samara is a clear choice between those options. Better weapon selection, Reave and Pull, though as a Sentinel, there are very specific parts of the game (arguably the "hardest" ones) where a Warp Explosion (via pull) really matters. Usually you can stay a bit longer outside cover and use your guns, than let's say Adepts, because of Tech armor providing an insta-shield replenish.

[Roxlimn]

It depends on the mission. For the Tali Recruitment mission, taking Garrus + Miranda is best because Overload is just OP for that mission. Area Overload takes out those pesky flying Drones SO, SO well. Garrus's sniping capability also finds good use in the open spaces of that particular mission.



For Tali's loyalty mission, Legion + Tali makes the entire thing a joke. You could conceivable complete the mission firing no guns and using no powers of your own.



Squad-based Warp is an iffy thing. It's nice to have when you don't have it, but on the other hand, the thing has a cooldown time of 12 seconds. Nine if you take Unstable option, but it's still a long time. If you're using the Widow or the Viper with the slow down effect, you might finish the entire encounter before the squaddie even regenerates the thing.



Samara is nice, but if I'm going to take Miranda along, I slightly prefer Jack over Samara because I will be actively participating in the battle, and having Warp Ammo available against Barrier without devoting a bonus slot on it is nice. With Miranda along, Samara won't be using Reave much anyway - I'll be too busy spamming Pull all over the place. Believe it or not, I actually use Concussive Shot every so often if the Pull target is vulnerable to the insta-kill.



It's not like Samara is bad or anything, but I prefer taking Jack there for the free Ammo skill. Jacob... ...well, I don't like him much if I'm playing Soldier or Infiltrator, since I don't have much use for his Ammo skill. Same goes for Grunt, actually.

[Roxlimn]

BanditGR:



Eh. It depends. Sometimes, I actually want to being Samara along for the occasional Reave, especially if I specialized her that way. At other times, having two Pulls on the squaddies is pretty spiffy. On the IFF mission, especially, I like Thane more than Miranda because I don't use Overload to that much effect there (not good at exploding stuff). Between Overload and Throw for a Husk mission, Throw wins.



For the suicide mission as a Soldier, I actually like Jack + Thane.

[BanditGR]

Roxlimn wrote...

BanditGR:

Eh. It depends. Sometimes, I actually want to being Samara along for the occasional Reave, especially if I specialized her that way. At other times, having two Pulls on the squaddies is pretty spiffy. On the IFF mission, especially, I like Thane more than Miranda because I don't use Overload to that much effect there (not good at exploding stuff). Between Overload and Throw for a Husk mission, Throw wins.

For the suicide mission as a Soldier, I actually like Jack + Thane.

I aggre, it is largely dependant on the class and to a certain degree, the mission at hand. Was kinda torn between Thane and Miranda for the IFF myself, since double throw (especially throw field) is golden for husks. I ended up with Miranda purely because of the damage bonus (and possibly out of habit as well heh).

[Koomaa]

Roxlimn wrote...

Samara is nice, but if I'm going to take Miranda along, I slightly prefer Jack over Samara because I will be actively participating in the battle, and having Warp Ammo available against Barrier without devoting a bonus slot on it is nice. With Miranda along, Samara won't be using Reave much anyway - I'll be too busy spamming Pull all over the place. Believe it or not, I actually use Concussive Shot every so often if the Pull target is vulnerable to the insta-kill.

It's not like Samara is bad or anything, but I prefer taking Jack there for the free Ammo skill. Jacob... ...well, I don't like him much if I'm playing Soldier or Infiltrator, since I don't have much use for his Ammo skill. Same goes for Grunt, actually.

Samara is godly, She has a rediculously fast cooldown with Sapiens Justicar. On my Sentinel Insanity run almost every single cooldown I spent on a warp detonation because her pull cooldown was just as fast if not faster than my warp cooldown. Also I put her ahead of Jack because when it comes to praetorians, scions, harbringer, gunships, and the (lawl) human reaper I find reave way better than warp ammo. But I do admit that I am slightly biased because I was on a Sentinel and had my own Ammo skill (basically the only bonus skill worth it for a Sentinel)

[Roxlimn]

Kooma:



Well, as I said, it does depends on build. I took AP Ammo for my Sentinel, so having Warp for Barriers was an optimization choice. Never had problems taking down Praetorians, gunships, and the Terminator, so those issues were largely moot, and Harbinger I usually took out myself.



It's largely a preference issue. If you like Samara, go with Samara. It's not like you can't go with Samara AND Jack. That's actually a pretty good combo if you're on platforms. You're going to be using Pull like your life depended on it, since they BOTH have cooldown bonuses. Pull+Throw and Pull+Warp will be the mainstays, of course, and having two Pulls is useful in that, as a Sentinel, you strip defenses like nothing, so you can potentially be sending the whole encounter up in the air in no time at all.



Just brainstorming here, I'd use Samara for the Reave to take out the Barrier, Jack for the Pull, then my own Unstable Warp for WE - kill one guy and strip Barriers en masse. Then, it's going to be a Pulling Throwing extravaganza with bodies flying every which way. Fun.

[Koomaa]

Roxlimn wrote...

Just brainstorming here, I'd use Samara for the Reave to take out the Barrier, Jack for the Pull, then my own Unstable Warp for WE - kill one guy and strip Barriers en masse. Then, it's going to be a Pulling Throwing extravaganza with bodies flying every which way. Fun.

Indeed... Area reave and shockwave seem like a more entertaining way to deal with husk rush aswell

And I don't think anyone has trouble with Reaper Baby , Praetorians, or Gun Ships but its nice to not spend 20 minutes ticking away at their Armor, imo the faster you can finish those fights the better

Modifié par Koomaa, 19 février 2010 - 10:38 .

[Graunt]

Roxlimn wrote...
It depends on the mission. For the Tali Recruitment mission, taking Garrus + Miranda is best because Overload is just OP for that mission. Area Overload takes out those pesky flying Drones SO, SO well. Garrus's sniping capability also finds good use in the open spaces of that particular mission.

Actually Zaeed with group disruptor and Garrus with area Overload are much much better.

Squad-based Warp is an iffy thing. It's nice to have when you don't have it, but on the other hand, the thing has a cooldown time of 12 seconds. Nine if you take Unstable option, but it's still a long time. If you're using the Widow or the Viper with the slow down effect, you might finish the entire encounter before the squaddie even regenerates the thing.

I wasn't talking about biotics man, this is an ammo thread.  Obviously I was talking about squad warp AMMO.

Modifié par Graunt, 19 février 2010 - 02:25 .

[mundus66]

Arde5643 wrote...

Interesting - w/ AP ammo, it took you 4 shots with uncloaked widow to take down harbinger.

w/ warp ammo, it took you only 3 shots to take down harbinger uncloaked.

So without further ado, then yes, it's concluded, against collectors, warp ammo is better.
It really didn't matter too much for the smaller guys, but against harbinger, it was one less ammo and reloading.

Thx for the vid, rumination.

You can oneshot Guardians with warp ammo too. Pretty sure you cant do that with AP armor.

[Roxlimn]

Graunt:



If you're talking about Squad Warp Ammo, then say so - it's a lot clearer that way. In any case, why take it on your own character when you can just spec up Jack to do it, and save your own slot for something else?



For most intents and purposes, the advantage of having Samara along as a Soldier/Infiltrator is Reave and Pull. Jack can do Pull and with Squad Warp on Jack, you can take something other than Warp Ammo as a bonus skill - an advantage because Warp Ammo isn't going to be the Ammo of choice for all missions, in which case you simply dump Jack instead of having to respec.



The main advantage of having Samara if you have Miranda is Warp Explosion, and Jack can facilitate that just as well as Samara can.

[Sarah Aran]

Call it silly personal preference but I'd rather have warp ammo over AP. The fact it can take down barriers along with everything else it does outweighs AP ammo. Dominate/Neural Shock also have their uses. I still swear by Reave on my Vanguard. The obsession with efficiency seems only really to benefit the soldier, whom realy has no other option, but its a hard argument to make for the other classes. AP ammo may be a Mass Effect law to you, but it hardly is for the entire community.

[davidshooter]

Roxlimn wrote...

Graunt:

If you're talking about Squad Warp Ammo, then say so - it's a lot clearer that way. In any case, why take it on your own character when you can just spec up Jack to do it, and save your own slot for something else?

You get 15% more damage when you take the ammo skill yourself as opposed to using someone in your squad.  If I understand the math correctly you do double the damage when your target is effected by biotics (which is a  lot of the time - at least the way I like to play) which brings you up to 30% more damage.  For me, the extra 15% was enough to take the skill myself - 30% makes it an absolute no brainer for the way I like to play. 

I should make it clear, I'm thining of my Adept here.

Modifié par davidshooter, 19 février 2010 - 02:20 .

[Graunt]

Roxlimn wrote...

Graunt:
If you're talking about Squad Warp Ammo, then say so - it's a lot clearer that way. In any case, why take it on your own character when you can just spec up Jack to do it, and save your own slot for something else?

You really should read what you're replying to before posting.  Not only were we talking about AP AMMO vs Warp AMMO, but then I started talking about the worth of someone like Jack just for squad Warp AMMO and that it would probably be better to just spec for it yourself and bring someone that's outright better, and if you need pull it would be Samara who is infinitely better than Jack as long as you're covering the AMMO.  You then start talking about how Soldiers and Infiltrators don't have synergies or buff the rest of your squad and then suddenly you thought I was talking about unstable Warp the biotic.

You get 15% more damage when you take the ammo skill yourself as
opposed to using someone in your squad.  If I understand the math
correctly you do double the damage when your target is effected by
biotics (which is a  lot of the time - at least the way I like to play)
which brings you up to 30% more damage.  For me, the extra 15% was
enough to take the skill myself - 30% makes it an absolute no brainer
for the way I like to play.

35% x 3 + someone not usless vs 50% x 1, 35% x 2 on someone useless outside of that.  If you rarely use your squad for much more than a distraction or just for their powers then it might not matter as much.

Modifié par Graunt, 19 février 2010 - 02:26 .

[Roxlimn]

Graunt:



I'm sorry, but I've lost track of your point. You can make a clearer point by using clear terminology and excising extraneous content. Thanks.

[Graunt]

Roxlimn wrote...

Graunt:

I'm sorry, but I've lost track of your point. You can make a clearer point by using clear terminology and excising extraneous content. Thanks.

Edited all of the posts that you could possibly read it as something it's not.  Now if there's any confusion, don't reply.

[davidshooter]

Graunt wrote...


35% x 3 + someone not usless vs 50% x 1, 35% x 2 on someone useless outside of that.  If you rarely use your squad for much more than a distraction or just for their powers then it might not matter as much.

Fair point but...

I have no faith in the AI at all though and I really only use them as a distraction as you said.  Interestingly enough I'm on an Insanity playthrough now and I don't have anyone in my squad levelled up except Miranda - and only for the health bonus,  and I don't really notice much difference in their performance.   I actually wish there were missions where you could choose to go alone - just my combat preference,  I've also had enough of the little squadmate heads on each cheek of my femshep's ass.

Squad ammo also opens you up to the AI switching it without any good reason if you have two squad mates with an ammo skill.

Modifié par davidshooter, 19 février 2010 - 02:39 .

[mundus66]

wrong post

Modifié par mundus66, 19 février 2010 - 02:39 .

[Roxlimn]

davidshooter:



True. I actually noticed that, so I don't, as a rule, bring two mates with squad ammo powers on any missions anymore. I assign one ammo power to the squad slots and that's it.



Graunt:



Shrug. I never found Samara's gun play to be all that more effective than Jack's to be honest. And as far as Pull is concerned - they're more or less the same. I prefer putting the Warp Ammo on the squaddie so that I'm not tied to that bonus power outside of respec. This way, I can take Jack if I want Warp Ammo, and Samara if I want Reave.

[Graunt]

On a different note, has anyone experimented with the Blood Dragon armor yet with the various ammo types?  According to the mechanics thread, ammo is boosted by +power effects, although I'm unclear on whether or not the armor is boosting the effect only for you, or it's converting something like squad ammo before giving it to squadmates.  

You would only be gaining 5% from a squad boost per person if it works for everyone for something like Warp and also be giving up the 10% headshot damage (not worth it for a Soldier or Infiltrator), but it might be beneficial to a Sentinel/Adept group.

Shrug. I never found Samara's gun play to be all that more effective than Jack's to be honest.

Samara simply destroys shields and barriers with the Collector gun (or Geth if you don't have that) and has reave on top of it to help (I just did the collector ship again with Miranda and Samara and with squad Warp ammo, they annihilated regular collectors and even messed up the scions pretty badly solo).  Jack just loooooves switching to the shotgun randomly and shooting from far away, and while the hand cannon is great against armor, it just seems way too slow for shields and barriers.

Modifié par Graunt, 19 février 2010 - 03:39 .