108 réponses à ce sujet

[rabbitchannel]

Just because Saren and Benezia were indoctrinated doesn't mean those who step onto the Collector Base will be too. It's a reasonable assumption to assume that all Reapers are able to indoctrinate those who are aboard it. However, everything that is even remotely related to the Reapers? Not all dig sites have resulted in a husk party. That, and the indoctrination device in one of the N7 missions, just shows that the indoctrinating quality is not something persistent in all Reaper tech and is something that is put there. Why would the Collector base be capable of indoctrination anyway? Did they expect non-Collector beings to take up long-term residence in the base?



Of course, it can be argued that it is possible that the Collectors are not fully under the control of the Reapers and the whole base uses indoctrination to keep them in line, but my argument against that is that the Collector's DNA has been radically changed to suit the Reaper's needs that it is not far-fetched to imagine that their thought processes have been altered as well. They've also been in that state for thousands of years (I forget how long) and any attempts at free will will have been destroyed by the Reapers and fixed in the next batch of Collectors.

[rabbitchannel]

KainrycKarr wrote...

Wiggletphyre wrote...

Creid-X wrote...

Keeping the base is a bad idea for 3 reasons.

1-Indoctrination, no one escapes it no matter how careful.
2-Cerberus and TIM, he CLEARLY states in the Paragon ending he wants the base to put humanity on top of every other race in the Galaxy which is NOT a good idea having account you're going to have to work together to take out the Reapers.
3-As Nazara/Sovereign said taking advantage of Reaper technology is moving along their lines, it will eventually backlash the whole Galaxy in some way or another

1- The collector base is not a reaper, and well the Citadel is a Reaper station to and ppl arnt getting indoctrinated there.

2- Ontop of is something else then  to dominate. if your look at his comments he's not looking to destroy other races, just to put humanity on front and have the other races follow them. Something that Shepard is working on also with powerfull contacts withing various factions. Like Wrex - Krogan, Tali - Quarians, Legion - Geth. all Characters that are/or will be leaders to there people.  It looks like Cerberus is trying to get other Species to follow humanity by being the first one to charge into the battle, and to survive that you need a good weapon and some nice armor

3- Well thers no going back to scratch and develop our own intergalactic transportation system now, might aswell try to catch up with the reapers to minimise there advantage.

Ummm...why the hell do you think the council absolutely, stupidly, ignorantly, REFUSES to help you or acknowledge the Reapers in any way?

Why do you think Anderson is still inclined to help us but is not allowed to because of our association with Cerberus? Just because 3/4 of the council absolutely refuses to help us and acknowledge the Reapers' existence is not necessarily a sign of indoctrination. If those 3 members are indoctrinated, how come Anderson isn't? How come there are no other signs of indoctrination among the populace? Of course, we can't say that Anderson isn't indoctrinated for certain just as we can't say that the other three are.

Modifié par rabbitchannel, 19 février 2010 - 12:06 .

[The_Real_Lee]

I'm sure that the datapad Shep looks at at the end of the game came from EDI, as she took all of that information out of the facility. She also probably has even more information on the Reapers, including how they're made, as our Shep asks her for info when we see the Human Reaper.



Whether or not she received sufficient data is the question.

[Torhagen]

Talk to Legion after you destroy the base i copmletely agree with him

[JRM01]

How can people still be mistrusting of Cerberus, as Cerberus clearly has the right intentions and if it wasn't for cerberus Sheppard would still be toast, the Alliance and al inhabitants of the galaxy oblivious to the Reaper threat and the Collectors would've build their human-reaper... I found the post-game reactions of my crew very unsetteling, how could they still be sceptical after everything we accomplished thanks to Cerberus. It also is clear that the human kind is the best race out there in the galaxy because without human interference and leadership the whole galaxy would've gone to hell and none of those overbearing aliens with all their wisdom and knowledge would've survived.

[Torhagen]

JRM01 wrote...

How can people still be mistrusting of Cerberus, as Cerberus clearly has the right intentions and if it wasn't for cerberus Sheppard would still be toast, the Alliance and al inhabitants of the galaxy oblivious to the Reaper threat and the Collectors would've build their human-reaper... I found the post-game reactions of my crew very unsetteling, how could they still be sceptical after everything we accomplished thanks to Cerberus. It also is clear that the human kind is the best race out there in the galaxy because without human interference and leadership the whole galaxy would've gone to hell and none of those overbearing aliens with all their wisdom and knowledge would've survived.

Spoken like true Cerverus operative maybe you should consider a Terra Firma membership as well

[UnAffectedFiddle]

As I said, your shiny new Normandy cannon is based off Reaper tech right? So all you nay sayers, did you still buy this tech even though it may be "tainted".



I'll also point out that while the Reapers say they left their technology to dictate how races evolve, I doubt they figured you would be taking over their bases because two years ago the cycle should have been restarted.

[rabbitchannel]

Torhagen wrote...

JRM01 wrote...

How can people still be mistrusting of Cerberus, as Cerberus clearly has the right intentions and if it wasn't for cerberus Sheppard would still be toast, the Alliance and al inhabitants of the galaxy oblivious to the Reaper threat and the Collectors would've build their human-reaper... I found the post-game reactions of my crew very unsetteling, how could they still be sceptical after everything we accomplished thanks to Cerberus. It also is clear that the human kind is the best race out there in the galaxy because without human interference and leadership the whole galaxy would've gone to hell and none of those overbearing aliens with all their wisdom and knowledge would've survived.

Spoken like true Cerverus operative maybe you should consider a Terra Firma membership as well

I actually agree. When I was first presented with the option, I thought it made sense to save the base. I mean, seriously, if a Reaper fleet attacks, we'd be CRUSHED! We need all the help we can get.

[Barquiel]

I think Samara puts it best: "The Illusive Man thinks that he has the wisdom to utilize it; but he does not."

[Eslyn]

Wiggletphyre wrote...

3- Well thers no going back to scratch and develop our own intergalactic transportation system now, might aswell try to catch up with the reapers to minimise there advantage.

It's kind of impossible not to use the Mass Relays and the Citadel now because galactic society is completely dependent on those things. It was before they even knew the dangers of the Reapers. If they knew a head of time, would they still have used the Citadel? Likely not.

We now KNOW the dangers of Reaper technology. Yes, there's things that could be learned, mastered, and replicated to help us (Thanix Cannons); but there's also the possibility that in all that data there's something to cause our undoing (Reaper IFF). Sometimes, the reward isn't worth the risk.

[Meltagunner]

The end-choice may seem black and white but it is only a small factor in the total formula. Honestly some people see only the tree and miss the forest. The collector's base was just that, a collector's base with housing for an embryo humanoid reaper. Any hope for an advanced super-weapon or key weakness on the make-up of the reaper gained from the base is supposition at this time. The only advanced technological evidence shown from the reaper base was nano-tech that broke down the colonists and devices that used the organic material to make the reaper's super-structure. Any assumptions on finding a key data-cache from the base is just an assumption, the reapers have already shown that they treat the base like a dummy-terminal through Harbringer's control of the Collectors so critical secret technology can be applied on demand with no need to keep data caches. Remember Reapers are good at leaving no traces of themselves. If you wanted to study Reapers you're going to need an actual Reaper, a live one would be best but the study of even a comatose reaper proved unviable. The next best thing would be then a corpse of a Reaper and the Citadel government already has one, Sovereign!

Suppositions aside and given the encountered evidence, the Collector base would have provided knowledge of Swarm bugs, random collector weapons, collector bodies, advanced nano-tech, receivers for Reaper communications, magnetic lifts, and organic-synthetic alloys. Of those techs, only the advanced nano-tech and Reaper comm-receivers would be lost in a big nuclear bast, the mess left on Horizon would make up for a lot of the Collector bits and Mordin had analysised a live Swarm bug.

But that's just the tree in my analogy.

Here's the forest. If you didn't get it in Mass Effect 1, the principle goal for Shepard wasn't to become the first human Spectre or even to stop Saren. In my opinion that was all a secondary area, the primary goal in the first few moves was to set up the pieces for a united front - galaxy. Saren even tried it but he got trapped within Sovereign's influence. Vigil on Ilos confirmed my suspicions and Mass Effect 2 reaffirmed it. On Ilos, Vigil laid out the Reapers' methods of operations: herd technological development (success), centralise dominating civilisation(s) operations (Citadel, success), kill the leader-ship (possible null), divide galaxy in managable pockets and over-whelm. After that Vigil notes that the Reapers harvest the galaxy of any new tech?! This might imply the Reapers have no creativity like a certain StarTrek antagonist.

Anyways, keeping the Reaper base would be a political nightmare and act as a dividing force. While the base itself is a secret, the technology it yield would have a huge blow-back effect. Also imagine the Citadel races as the principle community, humanity would be the new immigrants; humans are taking jobs, filling the police force, filling political offices, etc. All of a sudden the humans gain super nano-tech that the Citadel Intel groups didn't know of before, the Citadel hard-liners would start to gain massive amount credentials and when ever hard-liners gain massive political power things go down hill quickly. As it is already, conservative Citadel members are starting to polarise against human intergration and the last time a race (Krogan) started to dominate the Citadel, they stunted their baby-making ability.

Keeping the base was very much a renegade action as it lead to a potential break down of unity and seems to be based on a very short term gain; unity seems to a key part of the bigger solution as Bioware seems to be leaving a lot of opportunities to develop or lose large scale allies and a lot of the missions seem to hint in both Mass Effect games on the subtle political forces being set up for something bigger.

Modifié par Meltagunner, 19 février 2010 - 12:45 .

[x-wrentaile]

My problem is why do I have to give it to TIM/Cerberus or blow it up? Why can't I give Counselor Anderson a call, and turn it over to the galaxy at large? Get the Alliance, the Citadel, the Quarians and everyone else in on it. Sharing gives us the best chance of understanding it, and helps to keep everyone honest.

[Iron Ranger]

Considering how little of the first game decisions made in this game, I think that it will make little to no difference in the next game if you keep or destroy the base.



Side thought, I'm sure this has been brought up but what are the chances TIM is indoctrinated?

[Onyx Jaguar]

Tell you the truth it didn't seem that black and white to me either, I always did the Paragon choice though. In real life I would've done the Renegade choice because destroying that technology seemed like such a waste. Plus its pretty obvious at the end after doing the Paragon choice that the Illusive man spent all those resources on bringing you back because he believed you could get him this rather invaluable piece of equipment.

[Abirn]

Torhagen wrote...

JRM01 wrote...

How can people still be mistrusting of Cerberus, as Cerberus clearly has the right intentions and if it wasn't for cerberus Sheppard would still be toast, the Alliance and al inhabitants of the galaxy oblivious to the Reaper threat and the Collectors would've build their human-reaper... I found the post-game reactions of my crew very unsetteling, how could they still be sceptical after everything we accomplished thanks to Cerberus. It also is clear that the human kind is the best race out there in the galaxy because without human interference and leadership the whole galaxy would've gone to hell and none of those overbearing aliens with all their wisdom and knowledge would've survived.

Spoken like true Cerverus operative maybe you should consider a Terra Firma membership as well

Given the arrogence and ignorance of the council perhaps Shepard should.

[DuffyMJ]

One thing I considered is that the Alliance was initially investigating Cerberus for kidnapping colonists, which gave me a very scary thought that perhaps the illusive man really was planning to build his own reaper.

[Schneidend]

I'd say it's the most black & white choice in Mass Effect history. Let's say there's this really awesome, one-of-a-kind blender that can blend anything and churn out smoothies that induce orgasms with every sip. Pretty awesome blender, right? You'd want to keep that blender and use it to have an infinite supply of smoothygasms, naturally. Now, let's say that the previous owner chopped up tens of thousands of living people with that blender, and that this was the only ingredient that could produce the orgasm-inducing smoothies.



/thread

[NICKjnp]

DarkNova50 wrote...

Althought it would be amusing to see a massive Reaper in the shape of The Illusive Man.

That was one of the best things I've read in these forums.  I hope the Renegade decision in the next game has this... or one of Shepard.

[RubiconI7]

UnAffectedFiddle wrote...

I guess it came down to this for me.

Your about to fight a species that has successfully ended all advanced life in this part of the universe for god knows how long. They have technology where one ship could have destroyed most of the fleet if it had not panicked and raced into the Citadel and let its guard down to control Saren. They have been studying genetic material for millions of years and have had very small if any major setbacks. These are true end of the world times.

Who cares if Cerberus has poor intentions AFTER the Reaper threat. So far they have been pretty good trying to bring every species up to speed for a united front (not always in the nicest way, but still).

More importantly, to lose this fight on principles, while "nice" does mean the extinction of every single space capable race in the Milky Way. Its nice that your pride may endanger billions and billions and billions of lives. But every animal would fight tooth and nail against extinction and this is what we are facing.

If Cerberus use it for nefarious means after, well least we can be happy there is an after.

And a ME4

[rabbitchannel]

Schneidend wrote...

I'd say it's the most black & white choice in Mass Effect history. Let's say there's this really awesome, one-of-a-kind blender that can blend anything and churn out smoothies that induce orgasms with every sip. Pretty awesome blender, right? You'd want to keep that blender and use it to have an infinite supply of smoothygasms, naturally. Now, let's say that the previous owner chopped up tens of thousands of living people with that blender, and that this was the only ingredient that could produce the orgasm-inducing smoothies.

/thread

Yes but then you'd want to keep that blender to figure out how to replicate it and perhaps create more blenders or other things that give you smoothygasms. Once you are able to do that you don't have to use the evil blender. You can use the new one that you developed. Also, you want to use it to find out why the creators of the blender want to harvest your species. Eh... there are better analogies. not /thread.

[RhythmlessNinja]

I'll be honest, I destroyed the base partly on the fact that its a human smoothie factory, BUT my main reason was just too ****** TIM the hell off. Seriously, I've never seen someone lie so much in my life, He brought you back to life, tried to kill you on many occasions afterward...seriously what the hell.

Modifié par RhythmlessNinja, 19 février 2010 - 01:22 .

[Vaenier]

Its a no brainer. SAVE THE BASE. What self centered idiot would destroy the only answer to finding the enemies weakness? Would you destroy the deathstar plans because you dont like darthvader?

And keeping base does not mean using reaper tech. You can study it for the sole purpose of leaning how to counter it and make it useless.

And stop using indoctrination as an excuse to blow it up. That is another reason to keep it. If you are guna fight reapers, you need to learn how to protect yourself from their effects. Hard to do if you have no idea where the effect even comes from or what it is.

[Daerog]

I like Legion's opinions when it came to the conflict between the heretics and true geth. Being blinded by other alternatives and such. It seems like without the Collector's base, the geth may be the best bet against the Reapers, as they are developing technology at a fast rate that is different than the regular Citadel space technology.



There have been many ways to discover the make-up of Reapers: Sovereign's corpse, the derelict Reaper, and the data that EDI extracted from the Collector HQ. The Collector base would make it easier to understand them a little bit more, but I would rather destroy it than have it be used.



As for the opinions of the survival of the species is more important than how that species survives, that reminds me of Saren's quote: Is submission not preferable to extinction? My response: Err, no, it is not preferable. I would rather have humanity perish than become some soulless husks (like the Collectors) that would not care for any of the other galactic species. I agreed with the Paragon dismissal of TIM, saying that he won't sacrifice the soul of humanity. If Shepard is to lose and the galaxy gets harvested, at least it will just start again and the next species will have a chance.

[contown]

The choice was incredibly black and white, and it made no sense. Also, it left out a critical option: keep the base, but GIVE IT TO THE ALLIANCE/COUNCIL. Why can't we do that? It would let us get a good understanding of reaper tech, keep it out of cerberus' hands, and, most importantly, show undeniable proof that the reapers exist. That would get the council and alliance to finally side with Shepard in the war against the reapers.



It was easily the most laughably bad moment in the game.

[Meltagunner]

Vaenier wrote...

Its a no brainer. SAVE THE BASE. What self centered idiot would destroy the only answer to finding the enemies weakness?

You assume that's the only answer, though a viable assumption if you ignore the entire Mass Effect story presented so far.

Modifié par Meltagunner, 19 février 2010 - 01:36 .