43796 réponses à ce sujet

[firecleaner]

jtav wrote...

But her reaction to learning of those atrocities is to deny that they were done by Cerberus. She sounds pretty horrified on Jack's loyalty mission.

Eh, but still she's got to know what Cerberus is doing she's and officer.... she doesnt strike me as naive, she has some clue on whats going on in Cerberus.


ME2 Spoiler!

I think if she was un-loyal I think she should of shot you when you were arming the bomb....

Modifié par firecleaner, 09 avril 2010 - 03:44 .

[shinobi602]

Miri is still inherently a good and loving person in her heart, irrespective of everybody's theories here. I think we're going to see a lot of development with her character in ME3.

Mavi, coffee machine, I'd like to know what you mean though by the morals that everyone has. Or, I mean, what has Miri done that is terrible? I'm still not really understanding kind sir!

Modifié par shinobi602, 09 avril 2010 - 03:45 .

[DarkSeraphym]

Jebel Krong wrote...

jtav wrote...

Okay, I'm reading back over yesterday's post and am vaguely alarmed that a revelation that Miranda's father wasn't that bad wouldn't make most people lose sympathy for her. I could understand a Renegade Shep justifying it because some of his choices can be horrific, but kidnapping a child to get back at Dad's well beyond my personal tolerance. As is a knowing and deliberate role in what happened to Toombs. I miss something?

i am more disturbed by this apparent obsession with being either "renegade" or "paragon" and not just doing what you feel is right in the given situation, as you would naturally, in real life. Renegade shep doesn't nec. mean that that person would do all/only renegade actions and vice-versa.

anyway, shepard judging how "bad" is bad, he has to either rely on miranda's word (likely, whether in a relationship or not) or her father's. even if, somehow, he was proven to be comparitively mild, it doesn't lessen miranda's own internal justifications, therefore wouldn't necessarily affect how others see her.

Normally, I will try to do things on the first playthrough as I normally would, but then subsequent playthroughs are done in "what-if" scenario sorts of things just o keep it interesting. The only problem I have with keeping it as a "would I do this in real life" approach is that it is an RPG and it's not supposed to be like real life. Shepard is a Spectre and as such, he is not bound by laws. If you had the ability to do whatever you wanted, whenever you wanted; your decisions might not actually be the same as they would be in real-life. Likewise, Shepard is a soldier and is very accustomed to being shot at a large portion of the time. Most soldiers that have experienced war will tell you that it completely changes them as a person. This may seem like an extreme way of looking at things, but let me give you an example:

Most police officers are highly trained "soldiers" so to speak in civilian life. However, because of laws that are in place to protect the citizens they protect or the suspects they are after, a cop is not free to just go around and start shooting at people. In fact, if a suspect has a weapon on you then in most states you are not free to use lethal force until that suspect has already tried using the weapon on you. It isn't a sympathy for the criminal that keeps the police officer from shooting the suspect, it's the fact that if they do shoot then they have a massive pile of paperwork to go through and then run the risk of being tossed in prison themselves. From what I've been told from a friend, a police officer, in a situation like this; it's one of the most terrifying/conflicting experiences one can go through. Now if I remove the laws that say a police officer cannot just gun down a suspect, how do you think the situation will then play out?

Though, back to the topic,  I think the reason people are obsessed with one or the other is the advantages behind having maxed out in one or the other. For instance, you need a very high Renegade or Paragon just to activate some of the options that will keep your party members loyal when there is a fight amongst one another. If BioWare didn't include benefits to maxing out one or the other, like Bethesda does in Fallout 3, people wouldn't be so obsessed with filling one or the other.

[Valmy]

shinobi602 wrote...

Miri is still inherently a good and loving person in her heart, irrespective of everybody's theories here. I think we're going to see a lot of development with her character in ME3.

It's written all over her face and in her voice during her loyalty mission.  Can there really be bad in a person who loves their sister so much?   That was when I decided to romance her.  It is probably the only time in all my time of playing a Bioware game that I romanced somebody based solely on how I felt about the character rather than a preconcieved plan.

[shinobi602]

Modifié par shinobi602, 09 avril 2010 - 03:52 .

[Errol Dnamyx]

Valmy wrote...

shinobi602 wrote...

Miri is still inherently a good and loving person in her heart, irrespective of everybody's theories here. I think we're going to see a lot of development with her character in ME3.

It's written all over her face and in her voice during her loyalty mission.  Can there really be bad in a person who loves their sister so much?   That was when I decided to romance her.  It is probably the only time in all my time of playing a Bioware game that I romanced somebody based solely on how I felt about the character rather than a preconcieved plan.

I felt the same way when I was on my first playthrough. The plan was to stay loyal to Ash, but then I flew straight into Mirandas web. : /

[MassAffected]

Valmy wrote...

shinobi602 wrote...

Miri is still inherently a good and loving person in her heart, irrespective of everybody's theories here. I think we're going to see a lot of development with her character in ME3.

It's written all over her face and in her voice during her loyalty mission.  Can there really be bad in a person who loves their sister so much?   That was when I decided to romance her.  It is probably the only time in all my time of playing a Bioware game that I romanced somebody based solely on how I felt about the character rather than a preconcieved plan.

Good people can still do terrible things...

[shinobi602]

Maviarab wrote...

shinobi602 wrote...

Miri is still inherently a good and loving person in her heart, irrespective of everybody's theories here. I think we're going to see a lot of development with her character in ME3.

Mavi, coffee machine, I'd like to know what you mean though by the morals that everyone has. Or, I mean, what has Miri done that is terrible? I'm still not really understanding kind sir!

Shin...at the risk of being controversial, even Hitler was a loving caring person in his heart to those people who were close to him...

My opinion of Miranda stands I'm afraid lol....

As for morals, what I mean is, everyone has morals yes, but it amazes me on a daily basis how a lot of said morals seem to get forgotten depending on peoples wants and view points....

To me, if you have a moarl, a stand point, a view of something.....you stick to it, you dont conveniently forget about your morals when it suits you best. Sometimes, your morals will make you lose out on something, cause you hardship etc, and like I say, its amazing how many people have 'morals' when it 'suits them'......

I understand, but I mean, what has Miranda done that warrants your thinking that?

[Valmy]

MassAffected wrote...
Good people can still do terrible things...

True.

But the terrible things are just theoretical at this point.

[Valmy]

Maviarab wrote...
Shin...at the risk of being controversial, even Hitler was a loving caring person in his heart to those people who were close to him...

No offense but do you know very much about his personal life?  Because obsessive and controlling rather than loving and caring would be what I would use.  Understandable given his family life though.

[MassAffected]

****, I feel like I'm gonna miss out on some good convo...but I have to go :-(

[Valmy]

Maviarab wrote...
Yes I do actually, and maybe at the risk of offending you, maybe you shouldnt just take everyones word at what an evil person he was?

Well when I study history I do tend to base my opinions on facts and personal accounts.  My opinion is basically formed by what his landlady, his comrades in the German Army, and people who knew him later in life said.  He certainly loved animals but that is understandable, animals do not let you down and people were disappointing him his entire life.

Whose opinion should I be listening to?

[shinobi602]

Maviarab wrote...

Miranda has done nothing at all Shin...she doesnt need too.

She is prepared to gun down her best friend in cold blood for berayal....she is an extremely high ranking Cerberus officer...and I mean high ranking....she had to work for that position....I doubt it was just gifted to her...

Regardless of everyones lovey dovey views on her, those are the kind of things few people do, because its not in their personality, they are not 'wired' for it.

Just seeing some of her actions, the way she tlaks, and her company position, tells 'me' a lot about her personality.

Well, she wasn't going to gun down Niket for betrayal, it was for the safety of her sister. I think all of us would do some pretty drastic things when it comes to family. What those things are, I'm sure are different for everybody. So that's not a negative about her, to me.

In terms of your other points, I can't judge any of that because...well, I haven't seen how she's gotten to where she's gotten. So that's conjecture, which personally I can't comment on because I don't know much about her past, I only go by what we've seen so far, and I've seen very good

Maviarab wrote...So is how wonderful and caring she
is.....

But if that is the case, then why do you like her Mavi? If she's not wonderful and caring in the game, and that's only theoretical...why do you think she's a great character?

[Valmy]

Maviarab wrote...
So is how wonderful and caring she is.....

I don't know about wonderful but I have seen the caring part in action.  That is not theoretical, that is concrete.  You have the task of showing that is false somehow.

[Ieldra]

Maviarab wrote...
Regardless of everyones lovey dovey views on her, those are the kind of things few people do, because its not in their personality, they are not 'wired' for it.

People are not "wired" to do bad or good things, they learn to do them, and if they're bad, they either justify them or bring themselves to not care. Miranda has learned to justify some things others would find reprehensible, and there are things she, in my estimation, would never do. 

So to sum up, sweet inocent and moralistically ideal people, do not get where to where she is in life is what I am saying....or on the very rare occasions they do, it really is the exception to the rule.

Bah. Who said Miranda was "sweet innocent and moralistically ideal"? There is a lot of space between that and having any morals at all. Morality is not a black and white thing.

I remember having this debate with you and your black-and-white universe before....

Modifié par Ieldra2, 09 avril 2010 - 04:20 .

[shinobi602]

Well, I'd like to point out that I'm not saying she's a pure angel. On the contrary, that would be a rather boring and static character for me. I'm happy she's gray, and not black and white.

Modifié par shinobi602, 09 avril 2010 - 04:21 .

[Valmy]

Maviarab wrote...
So to sum up, sweet inocent and moralistically ideal people, do not get where to where she is in life is what I am saying....or on the very rare occasions they do, it really is the exception to the rule.

Well nobody is pure.  But likewise purely vile and disgusting people with no redeeming qualities rarely end up in high ranking positions also.  I am not sure the value of arguing down that path is.

She believes in Cerberus's ideals and is good at what she does.  Exceptional even at what she does.  She is willing to sacrifice others for the mission, even if she acknowledges they knew that was possible when they signed up.  Paragon Shep wouldn't do that.

She is not a saint, but nobody is calling her that.  She is not a monster either.

Modifié par Valmy, 09 avril 2010 - 04:24 .

[shinobi602]

Maviarab wrote...
 doesnt mean she not capable of the worst attrocities when it suits her....

This is where I don't understand where you are getting this from Mav. Worst atrocities? She has done nothing or there hasn't really been anything in ME2 to indicate this...Is it because she works for Cerberus? You of course know there are many in Cerberus who are good people. Look at Kelly, look at Gabby and Kenith.

I think you're saying this because you're merging her with Cerberus automatically. All the bad things we know Cerberus has done, we can't say Miranda has had anything to do with those. The Akuze incident, Captain what's his name being killed, etc.

You're saying that she had to have risen to her rank by doing some bad deeds too. Well...remember her abilities. She's genetically super smart, very strong both physically and biotically, and that she was hand picked by the Illusive Man himself. Just like the real world, when you got connections in the job market lol....you can get to high places fast.

Maybe we just agree to disagree here eh.