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[firecleaner]

Valmy wrote...

DarthReavus wrote...
For me the Second World War was not won by any single action or any single nation, it was the efforts of all of the Allied Nations that won the war, even though Hollywood would try and have the world believe otherwise....

Yep, the course of WWII is quite complex as it is a huge war.

Not nearly as complex as WWI.  Explaining that one to somebody is a nightmare.

Man I could so talk about this for pages and pages but it is probably best we stop this conversation now

Well the secret treaties, arms race, and assassination didn't help....

[MassAffected]

Maviarab wrote...

Also Ield, the world is black and white, incredibly so when you look at it from a third perspective, what makes it grey is peoples inability to calculate the reactions and consequences (whether good or bad) of their decisions due in main to our emotions.

I think what makes it "grey" are our personal experiences that shape our character and color our morals/thought process. It is never as simple as black and white even with atrocities like Hiroshima or the Holocaust.

[DarkSeraphym]

MassAffected wrote...

Maviarab wrote...

Also Ield, the world is black and white, incredibly so when you look at it from a third perspective, what makes it grey is peoples inability to calculate the reactions and consequences (whether good or bad) of their decisions due in main to our emotions.

I think what makes it "grey" are our personal experiences that shape our character and color our morals/thought process. It is never as simple as black and white even with atrocities like Hiroshima or the Holocaust.

Well said.

[MassAffected]

firecleaner wrote...

DarthReavus wrote...
even though Hollywood would try and have the world believe the good ol' Yanks saved your asses....

:P:P Joking.....


Hopefully we get a clarification on this, Miranda seems to have a fault she seems to lack the ablility to think for herself.

I don't see that as true at all based, simply, on the fact that regardless of what Shep chooses to do she still tells TiM to go pound dirt.

[Caihn]

Maviarab wrote...

To me, all the time she spent with Shep she saw another way of doing things, and I believe she see's Shep as a stonger person than TIM in many ways....so I dont see it that she took a rsk in resigning, Shep (as a love interest or not) is a better and safer option.

Shepard : They liquified people. Turn them into something horrible. We have to destroy the base.
TIM : Don't be short sighted. Our best chance against the Reapers is to turn their own resources against them.
Miranda : I'm not so sure. Seeing it firsthand .. using anything from this base seems like a betrayal.

Then, Shepard is talking only about morality and Miranda follows his judgment.

Modifié par Yannkee, 09 avril 2010 - 05:45 .

[Valmy]

firecleaner wrote...
Hopefully we get a clarification on this, Miranda seems to have a fault she seems to lack the ablility to think for herself.

I disagree she has an opinion and a thought on everything and shares it.  I think that she is a bit too trusting of TIM though, but he is a master manipulator after all.

[Valmy]

MassAffected wrote...
I think what makes it "grey" are our personal experiences that shape our character and color our morals/thought process. It is never as simple as black and white even with atrocities like Hiroshima or the Holocaust.

I agree with the first sentence.

Not touching the second one with a 100 foot pole

[Valmy]

MassAffected wrote...

I don't see that as true at all based, simply, on the fact that regardless of what Shep chooses to do she still tells TiM to go pound dirt.

I think alot of that has to do with the ME3 plot.  It is important for some reason that if the base is destroyed that she is no longer be with Cerberus.

[jtav]

I do think Miranda prefers to let TIM's directives serve as her conscience. "Cerberus is good and would never ask me to do anything truly unjustifiable." She does dismiss the attack on the Idenna as nothing personal. I also think her reaction to Pagia and her resignation (which is out if horror, not practicality) shows that she does have a functioning conscience, even if she keeps a lid on it. She isn't a Meangle. I think she'd have a nervous breakdown if she ever found out she had anything to do with Akuze or Chasca.

[Valmy]

jtav wrote...

I do think Miranda prefers to let TIM's directives serve as her conscience. "Cerberus is good and would never ask me to do anything truly unjustifiable." She does dismiss the attack on the Idenna as nothing personal. I also think her reaction to Pagia and her resignation (which is out if horror, not practicality) shows that she does have a functioning conscience, even if she keeps a lid on it. She isn't a Meangle. I think she'd have a nervous breakdown if she ever found out she had anything to do with Akuze or Chasca.

Well I outta....

Darn I cannot find anything here to disagree with.

[MassAffected]

Valmy wrote...

jtav wrote...

I do think Miranda prefers to let TIM's directives serve as her conscience. "Cerberus is good and would never ask me to do anything truly unjustifiable." She does dismiss the attack on the Idenna as nothing personal. I also think her reaction to Pagia and her resignation (which is out if horror, not practicality) shows that she does have a functioning conscience, even if she keeps a lid on it. She isn't a Meangle. I think she'd have a nervous breakdown if she ever found out she had anything to do with Akuze or Chasca.

Well I outta....

Darn I cannot find anything here to disagree with.

Yeah, I'm in agreement as well.

[jtav]

Valmy, now isn't the time to mention that I'm toying with an AU where she was responsible for developing an early form of the drugs used on Gillian and Jack and assists in apprehending Grayson while Shep is elsewhere. She does not take the news of what really happened in Ascension at all well.

[MassAffected]

jtav wrote...

Valmy, now isn't the time to mention that I'm toying with an AU where she was responsible for developing an early form of the drugs used on Gillian and Jack and assists in apprehending Grayson while Shep is elsewhere. She does not take the news of what really happened in Ascension at all well.

[Ieldra]

MassAffected wrote...

Valmy wrote...

jtav wrote...

I do think Miranda prefers to let TIM's directives serve as her conscience. "Cerberus is good and would never ask me to do anything truly unjustifiable." She does dismiss the attack on the Idenna as nothing personal. I also think her reaction to Pagia and her resignation (which is out if horror, not practicality) shows that she does have a functioning conscience, even if she keeps a lid on it. She isn't a Meangle. I think she'd have a nervous breakdown if she ever found out she had anything to do with Akuze or Chasca.

Well I outta....

Darn I cannot find anything here to disagree with.

Yeah, I'm in agreement as well.

Me, too.

BTW, sorry I couldn't answer your questions, Valmy, but I was away from my computer for a while, and will be for another hour or so. Too bad, such an interesting subject, ethics.

And what's a "Meangle" - or did you, by chance, mean "Mengele", jtav?

[jtav]

I never said I could spell, Ieldra. Josef Mengele. That's what I get for not looking it up.

[MassAffected]

Errr Mavi, yes actions can be broken down in to "black and white" or "dos and don'ts"...the consequences and how we feel about it make up the grey area. So I'm not sure if we disagree or not, maybe we just have a different way of saying the same thing?

[Valmy]

jtav wrote...

Valmy, now isn't the time to mention that I'm toying with an AU where she was responsible for developing an early form of the drugs used on Gillian and Jack and assists in apprehending Grayson while Shep is elsewhere. She does not take the news of what really happened in Ascension at all well.

I have to say if she does appear in Retribution, even in snagging the hero Grayson, I will totally squee.  But I bet she wont.

[MassAffected]

Maviarab wrote...

Then, Shepard is talking only about morality and Miranda follows his judgment.

SEEMS like a betrayal....not IS a betrayal.....

And as fire said, she does seem to lack the ability tom think for hersefl. Sure as Valmy said, she may have thoughts, but she does seemt o do whatever eitrher the concensus is or her superior says.

So, seems like a betrayal, thats what she says. Nothing else.....not resigned at that point. Shep then DECIDES what hes doing.....and then Miranda (as is usually the case and as fire pointed out) then goes along with him....

So again, in my opinion, she could have said no and agreed with TIM, she could have shot Shep....she could have agreed with Shep and NOT resigned....

I feel she sided with Shep and resigned as she see's Shep as stronger and more cpabale than TIm (and remember everything Cerberus does for her given her father and sister).....

For once she made an actual choice imo.....as to 'why' she makes that choice I guess we might find out in ME3 hehe.....

Her even saying that it SEEMS like a betrayal is a giant leap considering her blind faith at the start of the game. I also think that a lot of her "lack of thought" as you say and "lack of action on her thoughts" as I see it stems from perhaps how she was conditioned by her father and then TiM? She was created to be loyal and to be used...its no wonder she sometimes has trouble acting on her own if not given a clear directive or goal. Also even when Shep does EXACTLY what TiM wants she still resigns so I'm not really understanding what you're trying to say here.

[jtav]

Valmy, that's why it's an AU -- a deliberate deviation from "what really happens" Grayson's hiding out on the Citadel ir similar and TIM asks her to assist in apprehending him --"he's delusional and a danger to us all"-- while Shep's occupied with a loyalty mission. She does so. After EDI is unblocked, she's free to share what really happened to Gillian and TIMs degree of control of projects. Miranda pretty much loses it for a bit.

I think I read somewhere she would appear in the novel.

Modifié par jtav, 09 avril 2010 - 06:30 .

[Caihn]

Maviarab wrote...

And as fire said, she does seem to lack the ability tom think for hersefl. Sure as Valmy said, she may have thoughts, but she does seemt o do whatever eitrher the concensus is or her superior says.
.

I think she's quite capable to think for herself. 

So, seems like a betrayal, thats what she says. Nothing else.....not resigned at that point. Shep then DECIDES what hes doing.....and then Miranda (as is usually the case and as fire pointed out) then goes along with him.... 

Of course, Shepard decides. It doesn't change the fact that Miranda said what she thought.

So again, in my opinion, she could have said no and agreed with TIM, she could have shot Shep....she could have agreed with Shep and NOT resigned....

I

She could ... she could ... she could .. but she's not.

To me she chose because of what she said, and MAYBE also because she prefers to go with Shepard. 
Sorry, I prefer facts. Suppositions won't convince me.