43796 réponses à ce sujet

[Karstedt]

SgtPotato wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

@SgtPotato:
Would you *please* remove that ugly face from this thread....it does not serve the purpose. At least make it smaller. Please.

I'll take a guess that you haven't watch Star Wars.

Don't listen to Ieldra, you were right on the money. I was actually surprised one of the others hadn't already posted a Vader or Palpatine pic.

[Ieldra]

Valmy wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Hmm. She does come across as sexually experienced, so where does that come from? She doesn't love lightly, possibly Shepard's the first she really loves after a very long time of trusting no one. She's also not the type for short flings. Or is she?

She was a young woman once who had her fun.

But she is now in her 30s and wants something more significant if she can find it.  Nothing more than that I suspect.

If she ran away at 16 from a life with a very restricted social aspect, and took up with Cerberus within a few weeks - which seems the most plausible scenario - then she didn't have much opportunity to have her fun. Which is why I asked where her experience came from, and then came up with the idea that she took her fun on Cerberus assignments.
As for why she stopped, who says she did? I think Project Lazarus took her full attention for two years, and after that Shepard sort of monopolized it, but how she lived before that is anyone's guess. 

[jtav]

I've been thinking about something. Am I the only one who thinks Miranda might resign from Cerberus at some unspecified point in time, even in the Renegade ending. She seems to have lost faith in TIM, as evidenced by her doubts about keeping the base. At the very least, I would no longer describe her as a "loyalist." I can see her having an identity crisis in ME3, either trying to figure out who she is without Cerberus (Paragon) or otherwise dealing with her doubts.

[Jebel Krong]

i've been working on this, suitable for a friday afternoon @ work...

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

Hey all,

@jtav: finally took the time and got around to read your fic.

I can't see for the life of me why Shep would bring Miranda along during Jack's mission (I know, it was for the drama), but what was written so far made for an interesting read.  Nice work.

Liked how Miranda was distressed about how she had no insight whatever to give her sister when it comes to a normal life. Asking about the dog?  That was priceless.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...

I've been thinking about something. Am I the only one who thinks Miranda might resign from Cerberus at some unspecified point in time, even in the Renegade ending. She seems to have lost faith in TIM, as evidenced by her doubts about keeping the base. At the very least, I would no longer describe her as a "loyalist." I can see her having an identity crisis in ME3, either trying to figure out who she is without Cerberus (Paragon) or otherwise dealing with her doubts.

If you take that scene at face value, it seems likely. But this is the only scene in ME2 I can't identify at all with - the reasoning for the Paragon ending is, IMO, complete nonsense - as if shredding more humans was the only thing you could do with that treasure trove of enemy technology. I think destroying the base is stupid, and the only reason I'd do it is to keep it from TIM's exclusive control. Someone as smart as Miranda should be able to see that point. Too bad the really good ending - giving the knowledge to the Council / The Alliance - is not an option.

There are, without doubt, enough reasons to distrust TIM, so I can see her develop doubts which might be resolved one or the other way in ME3, but not over this.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 16 avril 2010 - 04:17 .

[TheSixthghoul]

jtav wrote...

I've been thinking about something. Am I the only one who thinks Miranda might resign from Cerberus at some unspecified point in time, even in the Renegade ending. She seems to have lost faith in TIM, as evidenced by her doubts about keeping the base. At the very least, I would no longer describe her as a "loyalist." I can see her having an identity crisis in ME3, either trying to figure out who she is without Cerberus (Paragon) or otherwise dealing with her doubts.

I've considered it,but I never played paragon so it wouldnt matter in any of my plays. I wonder if Miranda's bipolar or has split personalty because she pulls a lot of 180's. Why does she have doubts, personaly I think the developers added doubt to justify her not turn on Shepard. But, that causes a problem because they didnt enforce high morals to justify such a stance. To me what she said after the collcetor base, to me is a contradiction of her character. To me she is a character based on logic and reason with some morals guiding both.

[Valmy]

Ieldra2 wrote...
If she ran away at 16 from a life with a very restricted social aspect, and took up with Cerberus within a few weeks - which seems the most plausible scenario - then she didn't have much opportunity to have her fun. Which is why I asked where her experience came from, and then came up with the idea that she took her fun on Cerberus assignments.
As for why she stopped, who says she did? I think Project Lazarus took her full attention for two years, and after that Shepard sort of monopolized it, but how she lived before that is anyone's guess. 

Right I imagine she enjoyed herself with various Cerberus colleagues or any Civvies she might have taken a fancy to.

I suppose she might not have stopped but she just seems like the kind of woman now who is serious minded and wants something more substantial.  She tried a bit with Jacob and it just didn't work.

[Valmy]

jtav wrote...

I've been thinking about something. Am I the only one who thinks Miranda might resign from Cerberus at some unspecified point in time, even in the Renegade ending. She seems to have lost faith in TIM, as evidenced by her doubts about keeping the base. At the very least, I would no longer describe her as a "loyalist." I can see her having an identity crisis in ME3, either trying to figure out who she is without Cerberus (Paragon) or otherwise dealing with her doubts.

Both the descriptions of her as a "loyalist" and a "femme fatale" were not terribly accurate except on a surface level.  Her loyalty to Cerberus is based on her belief that the organization works for the betterment of humanity and if she feels that is not the case I do believe she would leave regardless if he had ever met Shepard.

[Valmy]

Sixth Goul wrote...
I wonder if Miranda's bipolar or has split personalty because she pulls a lot of 180's.

Does she?  She always seems eager to justify Cerberus' actions as being for the greater good.  She even states explicitely what her loyalty to the organization is based on.  Likewise she states she puts the mission first and only after you impress her with success will she warm up to you.  Finally it is obvious from her loyalty mission that she has deep emotional desires and that is played out in her romance.

So where are the 180s?  I see none.  Everything she does is well set up.

To me she is a character based on logic and reason with some morals guiding both.

I guess I disagree it is very important to her that her actions go towards a higher goal that is bigger than herself.  She specifically contrasts the noble goals of Cerberus to her father's self centered egomaniacal goals.

Modifié par Valmy, 16 avril 2010 - 04:56 .

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

My 'paragon'/destroying the collector base reasoning for at least one of my characters all boils down to how fecked up Cerberus handled the derelict reaper.



Even if the Reapers were going to 'cut ties' with the collectors at the end, there is still most likely reaper tech on that base and as there was definitly husks there, the likelihood that things could get just as much messed up.



I also seriously doubt handing it to the alliance or council would've made a difference as well. Talking about a bunch of spineless idiots that are more likely to say it was Cerberus behind the whole thing (as they have already assumed) and cause even more tension between humans and the other races. That is the main reason why there wasn't a 'give it to the council/alliance' option because then that would've made Shepard just as stupid as they are.



Am not saying that saving it is stupid, the fact is each option (save/destroy) could be equally viewed as 'stupid' depending on your viewpoint, personally whilst I've had characters save it, my viewpoint is that we are not ready to be handling such equipment.



As for your question Jtav, possibly, it really depends on what happens in ME3 (or prior to it).

[Ieldra]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

My 'paragon'/destroying the collector base reasoning for at least one of my characters all boils down to how fecked up Cerberus handled the derelict reaper.
Even if the Reapers were going to 'cut ties' with the collectors at the end, there is still most likely reaper tech on that base and as there was definitly husks there, the likelihood that things could get just as much messed up.

I think Shepard and Miranda should take over Cerberus in ME3. TIM is too greedy for results. Knowing about the risk of indoctrination, he should have acted more carefully. I don't believe there isn't anyone who could examine this stuff without getting mad in the process. That's just too Cthulhu-esque for an SF universe.

I also seriously doubt handing it to the alliance or council would've made a difference as well. Talking about a bunch of spineless idiots that are more likely to say it was Cerberus behind the whole thing (as they have already assumed) and cause even more tension between humans and the other races. That is the main reason why there wasn't a 'give it to the council/alliance' option because then that would've made Shepard just as stupid as they are.

I admit you have a point here. But who then would you want to give it to, considering that you don't have the resources to explore it yourself? You can't tell me there isn't anyone in the galaxy who is neither a spineless idiot nor as untrustworthy as TIM.

Am not saying that saving [the base] is stupid, the fact is each option (save/destroy) could be equally viewed as 'stupid' depending on your viewpoint, personally whilst I've had characters save it, my viewpoint is that we are not ready to be handling such equipment.

It's a very old meme, this "we shouldn't have this knowledge because we're unable to use it responsibly". I do not subscribe to it, and I distrust those ideologies who employ it to stay in power. Instead, I maintain that our ability to act responsibly grows with our capabilities, not because of any inherent virtue, but because there is no other choice if we want to survive. Whether or not it grows fast enough, that's undecided at any point in time where we still exist. It's a fundamental existential uncertainty, we can't escape it if we don't want to stagnate and die out. Which would be the best decision in this individual case I can't say, and distrust of TIM made two of my Shepards destroy the base, but interpreting it as a decision indicative of where I would want humanity to go in a general sense, I'd always save the base.

Getting back to Miranda, her implying that the base should be destroyed does not seem in-character, in this I agree with Sixth Goul. If the events on the derelict Reaper have changed her mind, then she should say something after that mission. It all comes very sudden. From her reactions, I see bad consequences coming from keeping the base in ME3. Of course the writers will employ that meme...*sigh*. As if it wasn't powerful enough.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 16 avril 2010 - 06:13 .

[jtav]

Regarding the base, I suspect that the geth will be proven right. The best way is not to use the Reaper tech, but to reject it and forge your own path. Galactic society is built on tech no one truly understands. Worse, hardly anyone wants to. No one has ever reverse engineered a relay or build their own. It took 3000 years to scan the keepers. Every scraps of Reaper tech seems to encourage (indoctrinate?) the user to be intellectually lazy and develop along a set path for ease of extinction.

[Valmy]

jtav wrote...

Regarding the base, I suspect that the geth will be proven right. The best way is not to use the Reaper tech, but to reject it and forge your own path. Galactic society is built on tech no one truly understands. Worse, hardly anyone wants to. No one has ever reverse engineered a relay or build their own. It took 3000 years to scan the keepers. Every scraps of Reaper tech seems to encourage (indoctrinate?) the user to be intellectually lazy and develop along a set path for ease of extinction.

Well said.  I couldn't agree more.

But we are probably wrong, Bioware wouldn't just screw the Renegade players like that...or maybe because Renegade Shep is so awesome he wins anyway.

[Piddlestick]

 I support this even tho' I've rarely used Miranda in my squad. Dunno, I just can't be bothered watching the moon face, moon ass, and 1960's restroom wallpaper uniform of the game model. The poor model's right breast looks pinched too (the wife noticed that).

Still, Miranda's a great character and very well VA's. It would be a shame to lose her to oblivion. :happy:

[jtav]

Maybe so, but that's my rationale, and the rationale I'm using for Miranda. She is, first and foremost a scientist, with all the intellectual curiosity that implies. I think she's also smart enough that attempting to co-opt Reaper tech never ends well.

[Valmy]

Piddlestick wrote...

 I support this even tho' I've rarely used Miranda in my squad. Dunno, I just can't be bothered watching the moon face, moon ass, and 1960's restroom wallpaper uniform of the game model. The poor model's right breast looks pinched too (the wife noticed that).

Still, Miranda's a great character and very well VA's. It would be a shame to lose her to oblivion. :happy:

I love moon ass and moon face!  She sorta resembles my wife  

Hey did you just insult my wife?!   Well maybe I just cannot be bothered to watch your wife either!  Icky!

Anyway it would be a shame for them to build up a character and make it seem like she is going to sacrifice her past life just to stay with you only to make her go *poof* in ME3.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
Regarding the base, I suspect that the geth will be proven right. The best way is not to use the Reaper tech, but to reject it and forge your own path. Galactic society is built on tech no one truly understands. Worse, hardly anyone wants to. No one has ever reverse engineered a relay or build their own. It took 3000 years to scan the keepers. Every scraps of Reaper tech seems to encourage (indoctrinate?) the user to be intellectually lazy and develop along a set path for ease of extinction.

That's not correct. The Protheans reverse engineered a mass relay and built the conduit. And it was not the technology the geth rejected, but their subservience to the Reapers who were regarded as gods by the Heretic faction.

Anyway, continuing to use the Reaper tech as it is would indeed be very dangerours. The main benefit of having the base is not the technology itself. It's the understanding gained through its analysis. Here's an example: It could be argued that it would benefit the world if all nuclear bombs on Earth were destroyed. Still we wouldn't want to reject the basic knowledge that enabled us to build them, would we? Because that knowledge can also be used for something more beneficial.

The example of the Protheans says where I think things should go: there's a third path between using the Reaper tech and destroying it: to dismantle it to see how it works, and then to decide what to do with the knowledge gained. That should be easier now with awareness of the risks. I cannot believe that this influence of the Reaper tech you speak of is inevitable.

Having said all that, you do make a very strong point. It's a far better point than the game itself makes at the time of the the decision about the base, and I'll use it as a reasoning for those games where I destroy the base. Most importantly, it is a point Miranda would accept, and it enables me to make both decisions without feeling stupid. Thank you.

@Valmy:
I've been asking myself for some time how BioWare imagines the future of humanity if the player continues to work with Cerberus. I hope it's something more than a simple decision between two stereotypical paths, one of which would be regarded as evil by many. I also hope the decisions influencing the role of humanity in galactic society are somewhat independent from those following from the decision about the base.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 16 avril 2010 - 08:16 .

[jtav]

Bloody hell. I forgot about the Conduit.



On an unrelated note, but am I the only one who hopes we don't get "where are they now?" epilogues in ME3. I have a very strong bias toward letting the player imagine what happily ever after looks like. Partly because I've changed my mind on that several times and partly because I've talked with others about Miranda and wondered if we played the same game.

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

jtav wrote...

Regarding the base, I suspect that the geth will be proven right. The best way is not to use the Reaper tech, but to reject it and forge your own path. Galactic society is built on tech no one truly understands. Worse, hardly anyone wants to. No one has ever reverse engineered a relay or build their own. It took 3000 years to scan the keepers. Every scraps of Reaper tech seems to encourage (indoctrinate?) the user to be intellectually lazy and develop along a set path for ease of extinction.

I would say that should really apply to everything.

I was doing a bit of research earlier this morning whereby was looking at the whole thing regarding the citadel and the keepers.

Basically put, the Citadel needs to be destroyed if the species want to break the cycle. I know some people for some crazy reason think the Reapers would attack it. Erm, no they won't, the only reason Sovereign went for it was to activate the signal to the other Reapers. The Citadel (and to some extent the Keepers) is integral to their whole 'cycle of the universe'.

I wouldn't be surprised if it is the Keepers whom help the Reapers get to the galaxy in ME3.

Actually your comment about how it encourages (indoctrinate) the user, could further give cause to the 'council' being such. That would explain why both the alien council is so "Ahh, yes, Reapers, we'd dismissed that claim!" and why the frelling chickens that Anderson/Udina put up as the main council members are so cowardly. Because they spend so much time in one of the main areas of the Citadel.

I just hope that if there is a 'reset the world' ending, it ain't cheesy like some of the past stories has done it and no stinking 'Neo' style sacrifice (with LI sacrifice as well). I don't mind there being a 'sacrifice' ending as long as it ain't so blatantly a rip off of a previous story.

[Ieldra]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...
I was doing a bit of research earlier this morning whereby was looking at the whole thing regarding the citadel and the keepers.

Basically put, the Citadel needs to be destroyed if the species want to break the cycle. I know some people for some crazy reason think the Reapers would attack it. Erm, no they won't, the only reason Sovereign went for it was to activate the signal to the other Reapers. The Citadel (and to some extent the Keepers) is integral to their whole 'cycle of the universe'.

That would be throwing out the baby with the bathwater. The Citadel may be integral to the cycle, but without the Reapers themselves it's nothing. If it's destroyed and even one Reaper remains, it can still try to establish another cycle. No, unless it really indoctrinates it's inhabitants, destroying it serves no purpose, and I don't buy the indoctrination theory - the example of the Protheans goes against it. I'd prefer simple stupidity to that, there's enough of that around to make it believable. Also, IMO it would lessen the impact of the story if the Council's stupidity were artificial.

And I hate reset-the-world endings. I hope we won't get one.

Edit:
Did we really spent 7 hours on the same page? That's almost creepy, especially considering the amount of interesting discussion that has taken place.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 16 avril 2010 - 09:14 .

[jtav]

Would I be correct in assuming that Jacob's death is the only crew member/squad casualty that Miranda would actually mourn over? Plotting my canon playthrough now that I've got a Shep who isn't deformed. Kind of want to give my poor Sole Survivor a break and have him say "just this once, everyone lives" but I like the ending with the coffins better. And the only way I can justify a death is to have Miranda do the barrier, so whose death do I want on her conscience?

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...

Would I be correct in assuming that Jacob's death is the only crew member/squad casualty that Miranda would actually mourn over? Plotting my canon playthrough now that I've got a Shep who isn't deformed. Kind of want to give my poor Sole Survivor a break and have him say "just this once, everyone lives" but I like the ending with the coffins better. And the only way I can justify a death is to have Miranda do the barrier, so whose death do I want on her conscience?

Samara's death would get through to her, I think. Tali's, perhaps a little. Not anyone else except for Jacob.

[Valmy]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Edit:
Did we really spent 7 hours on the same page? That's almost creepy, especially considering the amount of interesting discussion that has taken place.

Yeah well most of our posters moved their OOC discussion to another thread.

Ergo now it is just us who want to talk about Miranda.