43796 réponses à ce sujet

[TomY90]

I agree with you Ideldra2 that Miranda may create a form of the Salarian special tasks group because at the end if you destroy the base and you have miranda with you she resigns from cerberus which makes it likely she will either go her own way or follow what shepherd does.



e.g. join the alliance or join the squad



I also think what if shepherd is ordered to bring down cerberus and the illusive man in ME3 because of his first hand knowledge of cerberus and hatred the council have of cerberus.



There could be a decesion where you decide whether to save cerberus, destroy or repurpose the organsation. If you make it into a human STG it would make sense if miranda runs it due to her skills and expertise.

[Cypher0020]

-whistles-



Great with the ME issue of vanity fair. If that was real, I'd probably take a look at that.

[MrNose]

Ieldra2 wrote...

jtav wrote...
Regarding Ascension: I think it's very difficult to argue for any sort of "gray" Cerberus once you take it into account.

Yes...that's why I don't want to take it into account. ME3 will tell, in time. I'll deal with the truth then.

But I'm wondering what reading Ascension does to your scenario of Miranda making something more palatable out of Cerberus. If the picture painted in Ascension is mosly true, I can't see much useful institutional or personal continuity there. If Miranda wanted to create something like humanity's equivalent of the salarian STG from what remains after cleaning up, the reputation also wouldn't help. Or perhaps it would? Don't know. 

I already despised Cerberus, so it didn't bother me much. It just confirmed my take on Miranda as someone who's sheltered from the worst atrocities and somewhat in denial that she's a member of a terrorist organization.

If Ascension shows Cerberus' true face, then how sheltered must you be not to see this? I find it not quite convincing, considering Miranda's intelligence. And if there are enough accceptable things to do for her within Cerberus and she can be sheltered from the rest - and she isn't exactly a bureaucrat with no direct experience of things - then Ascension maybe doesn't show Cerberus' true face.

Ah well. We'll see how it goes in ME3.

Ascension actually goes out of its way to point out that Cerberus acts as a network of individual cells.  Nobody knows what anyone else is doing.  It would be fairly easy to use only certain people for the shadier missions and to use others for the more "save humanity HUZZAH" types of things.  In fact that seemed to be Jacob's whole thing.  He would server Cerberus, but only the parts that he liked.

[jtav]

I think both are Cerberus' true face. TIM will do whatever needs to be done to ensure human supremacy. He uses agents like Miranda for projects that are "softer" or where the victims are scum themselves and people like Pel and Wayne for the rest. He seems to have done a good job keeping cells in ignorance of each other. And Miranda does continue insisting Niket couldn't have betrayed her long after it should have been obvious that he did so.

[Jebel Krong]

jtav wrote...

I think both are Cerberus' true face. TIM will do whatever needs to be done to ensure human supremacy. He uses agents like Miranda for projects that are "softer" or where the victims are scum themselves and people like Pel and Wayne for the rest. He seems to have done a good job keeping cells in ignorance of each other. And Miranda does continue insisting Niket couldn't have betrayed her long after it should have been obvious that he did so.

tbh i consider the books about as much canon as the comics - which is to say: not at all. if you just look at the games, cerberus comes across as a much more believable and less cartoony-evil organisation. besides, why are they letting drew carry on now that he isn't involved in the games anymore?

as Ieldra said, miranda's not dumb, if cerberus was as bad as in the books, she would know and, given her portrayal in the game, would have left long ago, let alone defended the organisation so vehemently.

[MrNose]

jtav wrote...
 And Miranda does continue insisting Niket couldn't have betrayed her long after it should have been obvious that he did so.

That right there shows that she can't be put in the same leage as Grayson or Pel.

[TomY90]

About what jtav wrote



I think that part shows the innocence of miranda no matter how cold she appears to be.



Inside she is an innocent normal being which i think it is true she probably does know that cerberus is more like a terrorist group than a normal organization especially if Jason sees that from the very start of ME2.



It is just that Cerberus offer protection to those who she cares about her twin younger sister an that is what is important to her not her own life. She even said that was why she joined cerberus for protecting her sister

[Ieldra]

Jebel Krong wrote...

jtav wrote...

I think both are Cerberus' true face. TIM will do whatever needs to be done to ensure human supremacy. He uses agents like Miranda for projects that are "softer" or where the victims are scum themselves and people like Pel and Wayne for the rest. He seems to have done a good job keeping cells in ignorance of each other. And Miranda does continue insisting Niket couldn't have betrayed her long after it should have been obvious that he did so.

tbh i consider the books about as much canon as the comics - which is to say: not at all. if you just look at the games, cerberus comes across as a much more believable and less cartoony-evil organisation.

That's the crux with the matter, actually - the stupidity of it all, the stereotypical cardboard evil org painted by Ascension. They're using not the most efficient means to further their cause, but the most brutal. I can see ME2's Cerberus doing things to Gillian like in the book, and that's bad enough, but many other scenes serve no visible plot purpose but just scream "I've Evil ™. Hate me!" at the reader. The same for the ambiguity of the "human advancement" agenda. In ME2, you can see there may be something interesting in there, or it may hide human supremacism, or both. 

Yes....considering the books not-at-all canon is the best for my continuing enjoyment of the ME universe.

as Ieldra said, miranda's not dumb, if cerberus was as bad as in the books, she would know and, given her portrayal in the game, would have left long ago, let alone defended the organisation so vehemently.

Indeed. Even with isolated cells - between Miranda's direct access to TIM and her intelligence, she'd have to be a little too blind to be believable. Keeping cells isolated may not be hard, but keeping people like Miranda ignorant who have lead several operations in their time with various agendas for several years, that's not so easy.

[jtav]

My main concern vis Miranda and the novels is what happens after the resignation ending? Given what happend to Grayson, TIM should be hunting her down like a dog -- at least once the Reapers are taken care of. That's why I want TIM to die in ME3. I don't want another Viconia.

[Valmy]

jtav wrote...

My main concern vis Miranda and the novels is what happens after the resignation ending? Given what happend to Grayson, TIM should be hunting her down like a dog -- at least once the Reapers are taken care of. That's why I want TIM to die in ME3. I don't want another Viconia.

Viconia?  What do you mean?  Miranda is not an evil priestess of eternal darkness...or do you mean how she had this backstory that was never resolved or really touched on?

[jtav]

Remember Viconia's romance epilogue. She died because the Llolth priestesses finally caught up with her. I don't want TIM to be hunting Miranda for the rest of her life.

[Valmy]

jtav wrote...

Remember Viconia's romance epilogue. She died because the Llolth priestesses finally caught up with her. I don't want TIM to be hunting Miranda for the rest of her life.

Oh right.  I never romanced her.

Freaking Lolth and her priestesses.  Shar is supposedly a more powerful goddess with more priests but the Drow are so freaking overpowered and so idealized in FR that no ****** in their armor should ever develop.  Yeah SURE Shar is going to let one of her most powerful priestesses be killed by a lesser Goddess...right.

[jtav]

A for some reason, Cure Poison doesn't work.



Bioware will probably handwave it, but Miranda really has signed her own death warrant for the sake of principles. I think her dealing with that emotionally would make for an interesting arc, and that's what I'd do in ME3, though wouldn't kill her.

[Valmy]

jtav wrote...

Bioware will probably handwave it, but Miranda really has signed her own death warrant for the sake of principles. I think her dealing with that emotionally would make for an interesting arc, and that's what I'd do in ME3, though wouldn't kill her.

Well the problem is they probably cannot make it too huge of an arc...unless they plan on doing something similar with each of the LIs and....well actually that is a really great idea they should do that.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
Bioware will probably handwave it, but Miranda really has signed her own death warrant for the sake of principles. I think her dealing with that emotionally would make for an interesting arc, and that's what I'd do in ME3, though wouldn't kill her.

I think there's a good chance TIM won't survive ME3 ==> no death warrant for Miranda.

Another option: Shepard and Miranda leave Citadel space. TIM has no eyes out there.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 19 avril 2010 - 04:58 .

[Valmy]

Ieldra2 wrote...
I think there's a good chance TIM won't survive ME3 ==> no death warrant for Miranda.

Liara will kill TIM as well and dominate the galaxy with her invincible spy network?

[Ieldra]

Valmy wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
I think there's a good chance TIM won't survive ME3 ==> no death warrant for Miranda.

Liara will kill TIM as well and dominate the galaxy with her invincible spy network?

Liara better at the spy game than Miranda, if she puts some effort into it? Not a chance.

I think TIM will be an antagonist at the end of ME3.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 19 avril 2010 - 05:00 .

[Valmy]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Liara better at the spy game than Miranda, if she puts some effort into it? Not a chance.

If Liara really can take out the Shadow Broker and control his/her/their network I think she will be nigh on unstoppable.

[Valmy]

Ieldra2 wrote...
I think TIM will be an antagonist at the end of ME3.

Well he sorta already is at the end of ME2 depending on what you decide to do.

[Ieldra]

Valmy wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Liara better at the spy game than Miranda, if she puts some effort into it? Not a chance.

If Liara really can take out the Shadow Broker and control his/her/their network I think she will be nigh on unstoppable.

The SB is not unstoppable. Just unfindable. Miranda will kill TIM and have Cerberus' resources. She will be unstoppable :P:P

Modifié par Ieldra2, 19 avril 2010 - 05:04 .

[jtav]

Oh, I agree. TIM's dead. But that probably won't be until late ME3. Miranda's going to have plenty of time to think. And I think she knows what TIM does to traitors. I'd like to see some angst and soul searching, even though I want her to ultimately take him out.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
Oh, I agree. TIM's dead. But that probably won't be until late ME3. Miranda's going to have plenty of time to think. And I think she knows what TIM does to traitors. I'd like to see some angst and soul searching, even though I want her to ultimately take him out.

I think we've already established how good a story arc that would be - Miranda dealing with TIM and what he represents on several levels: the intellectual, the emotional and the physical. Oh yes, I'd like that very much. Probably wishful thinking, but it might just happen.

[keegdarv1]

*goes over a few things talked about*



the diff is Lolth cares more about one person and would stop at nothing to kill one person if it serves her need of revenge or whatever, while Shar would probally care more about just one person to always watch over them. and i wouldnt really call Viconia on of the most powerful, as her believe wasnt as high as most average people who believe in a god and time frame wise thier were way more power priest that fully believed in thier god



It really wouldnt be that hard to hide things from someone like Miranda and if shes as important as she seems then im sure TIM would go the extra mile to not let her have access to anything she thinks would be wrong. and before ME2 and seeing things and getting to know Shepard why would she want to look into why she didnt have access to this or that, she was very loyal to Cerberus. and since we have no clue what Miranda may have done before ME2 logic seems to me that TIM never let her lead anything or see anything that would make her doubt Cerberus. I wonder if we give Miranda to much credit( i meand that she look into everything and not just take it for face vaule) and give TIM not enough credit for what he would do to keep anyone he vaule loyal



I wouldnt be surprized if we never hear or see from TIM again or in ME3 his role is the size of like Anderson, not that i want him to have a small role but Cerebus isnt the focus of ME3 anymore and really Shepard doesnt need them backing him. the thought their would be something were you could kill TIM and stop Cerebus in ME3 and Miranda having a big part in that would be cool though

[MrNose]

jtav wrote...
Bioware will probably handwave it, but Miranda really has signed her own death warrant for the sake of principles. I think her dealing with that emotionally would make for an interesting arc, and that's what I'd do in ME3, though wouldn't kill her.

She hasn't signed her death warrant anymore than Shepard has, and we know that he won't die at the hands of Cerberus.  Basically, as long as she stays part of a highly armed group of super-soldiers, she should be fine.

[MrNose]

keegdarv1 wrote...

I wouldnt be surprized if we never hear or see from TIM again or in ME3 his role is the size of like Anderson, not that i want him to have a small role but Cerebus isnt the focus of ME3 anymore and really Shepard doesnt need them backing him. the thought their would be something were you could kill TIM and stop Cerebus in ME3 and Miranda having a big part in that would be cool though

Maybe a DLC or expansion pack resolution?