43796 réponses à ce sujet

[Valmy]

Collider wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

I love the things jtav brings up about Miranda. It's hard for us non-regulars to keep up with the off topic chats sometimes.

You should consider making a group that allows for greater room to speak about the intricacies of the characters (in this case Miranda), without fear of upsetting someone.
That, or use the group I created (serious discussion). Just a suggestion.

Eh I think Miranda discussion is well contained here.  I hope we can all feel free to say what is on our minds regarding the character.

[Collider]

Valmy wrote...

Collider wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

I love the things jtav brings up about Miranda. It's hard for us non-regulars to keep up with the off topic chats sometimes.

You should consider making a group that allows for greater room to speak about the intricacies of the characters (in this case Miranda), without fear of upsetting someone.
That, or use the group I created (serious discussion). Just a suggestion.

Eh I think Miranda discussion is well contained here.  I hope we can all feel free to say what is on our minds regarding the character.

Group's already been created. 

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
I'm staying out of that thread for my own sanity. I'm afraid I'll say something I regret. But the misogyny boggles my mind. Yes, she's sexually experienced and has sex in the engine room for whatever reason. Who the bloody hell cares? She's allowed to have her fun. She isn;t any less worthy or capable of love than Tali.
*fumes quietly*

**sets up another smokestack in silent agreement**

The sad thing is, people look into that thread not having played the romance and are put off by those "arguments". That's rather annoying.

[Ieldra]

Valmy wrote...
Eh I think Miranda discussion is well contained here.  I hope we can all feel free to say what is on our minds regarding the character.

I've never felt censored here except by the forum software. There's no need to split the discussion into more places - that only makes both places dry up faster.

[Nightwriter]

The group isn't just for Miranda. It's for all the characters. For all opinions.

And it's not just there to discuss the characters - it's to discuss what other people think of the characters, and what other people think of what other people think.

Anyway you're all invited! You guys have such great discussions here. It really is a shame other people don't get to hear it.

character discussion group

[Zulu_DFA]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Just FYI:

Vote Garrus out to keep Miranda alive.

I hate this game....but I can't help myself helping Miranda....

Not that I pity Garrus the Spineless Turian going down, but how about making Thane your next victim?

[Ieldra]

Nightwriter wrote...

The group isn't just for Miranda. It's for all the characters. For all opinions.

And it's not just there to discuss the characters - it's to discuss what other people think of the characters, and what other people think of what other people think.

Anyway you're all invited! You guys have such great discussions here. It really is a shame other people don't get to hear it.

character discussion group

Thank you - joined. I'll have a look. Perhaps we'll be able to discuss controversial matters without the need to be extremely careful. But my main place of residence will remain here. After all, Miranda is by far the most important character after Shepard. And even that I question sometimes

[Valmy]

Yeah lets try to keep Miranda talk here we can go to the group to discuss other characters. Especially interesting ones with no fan thread to speak of.

[Ieldra]

Valmy wrote...
Yeah lets try to keep Miranda talk here we can go to the group to discuss other characters. Especially interesting ones with no fan thread to speak of.

Jacob?

***runs away fast***

Because he's the only one without a significant fan thread. In fact, all interesting characters have one. Including TIM and Aethyta.

[jtav]

I think the group's a great idea. There are things I'd like to say about Tali, Liara, and Jack that I wouldn't feel comfortable posting in the support thread.

Actually, the attitude toward Miranda shouldn't surprise me so much. I read a lot of romance novels. It's still a pretty popular trope to have the heroine be opposed by an "other woman" (usually a mistress in historicals) The heroine is usually either a virgin or minimally experienced. In some edgier works, she'll be experienced, but there will be some trauma to explain it. The "other woman" will usually be older, more sophisticated, and free of sexual hang ups. She likes sex. Period. Often that sex is unconventional in some way. She never gets the hero, and is frequently the villain who antagonizes the "pure" heroine.

Miranda's the other woman. Except she isn't. And I just used a romance novel analogy on a gaming forum. *brain breaks*

[Valmy]

jtav wrote...
Miranda's the other woman. Except she isn't. And I just used a romance novel analogy on a gaming forum. *brain breaks*

Eh romance novels are perfect fodder for exploring romance tropes.  Besides it is a sign of how far gaming has come that those fandoms and interests overlap at all

[InbredBart]

Ieldra2 wrote...

 After all, Miranda is by far the most important character after Shepard. And even that I question sometimes

a fair point

[Valmy]

Ieldra2 wrote...
After all, Miranda is by far the most important character.

Fixed

[MrNose]

jtav wrote...

I think the group's a great idea. There are things I'd like to say about Tali, Liara, and Jack that I wouldn't feel comfortable posting in the support thread.
Actually, the attitude toward Miranda shouldn't surprise me so much. I read a lot of romance novels. It's still a pretty popular trope to have the heroine be opposed by an "other woman" (usually a mistress in historicals) The heroine is usually either a virgin or minimally experienced. In some edgier works, she'll be experienced, but there will be some trauma to explain it. The "other woman" will usually be older, more sophisticated, and free of sexual hang ups. She likes sex. Period. Often that sex is unconventional in some way. She never gets the hero, and is frequently the villain who antagonizes the "pure" heroine.
Miranda's the other woman. Except she isn't. And I just used a romance novel analogy on a gaming forum. *brain breaks*

I've never read a romance novel before, but you're right.  Those things are set up as "ideal fantasies" for western cultures, and if Miranda breaks the traditional mold, people who have trouble looking beyond their social preconceptions of what makes a woman (or a man) "valuable" are going to have trouble with her. 

Tali is the exact opposite:  She's super virginal, and only Shepard gets to see her face.  I'm not saying that there's a culture in the middle east which likes that sort of thing...  But yeah.  I tie a lot of the Tali worship to conservative romanticism.  Not that she isn't a cool character who would have fans regardless, but I think that's what makes so many people idolize her to such a huge degree.

[jtav]

Valmy wrote...

jtav wrote...
Miranda's the other woman. Except she isn't. And I just used a romance novel analogy on a gaming forum. *brain breaks*

Eh romance novels are perfect fodder for exploring romance tropes.  Besides it is a sign of how far gaming has come that those fandoms and interests overlap at all

Or I could just be weird. Obviously, there's not a lot of crossover between romance readers and gamers. But the books aren't written in a vaccuum, nor do the attitudes I've seen on this forum come from nowhere. Powerful, sexually confident, women like Miranda are supposed to die, be otherwise brought low, or "reform," They were not, until recently, allowed to get the guy while still remaining powerful and confident.

Have I mentioned how much I love that she never needs rescuing.

[Valmy]

jtav wrote...
Have I mentioned how much I love that she never needs rescuing.

I love that to.  It just doesn't seem right for Shepard to end up with somebody who needs rescuing.  He should be with somebody who can support him and know what sort of pressure and stress he is under, not simply another hero worshipper.

[Collider]

jtav wrote...

I think the group's a great idea. There are things I'd like to say about Tali, Liara, and Jack that I wouldn't feel comfortable posting in the support thread.

Do it! I'd like to see this.

P.S. I think the whole "strong women are bad" thing is pretty stupid. From my own experience however, I think the dislike some people have towards Miranda has more to do with her ties to Cerberus than anything else.

[Valmy]

Collider wrote...
P.S. I think the whole "strong women are bad" thing is pretty stupid. From my own experience however, I think the dislike some people have towards Miranda has more to do with her ties to Cerberus than anything else.

That is understandable but it is a mistaken belief.  Her loyalty to Cerberus is not nearly as unconditional as you are led to believe at first.

But I find it odd that that same standard is not applied to Joker or the rest of ther Cerberus crew.

[Collider]

Valmy wrote...

Collider wrote...
P.S. I think the whole "strong women are bad" thing is pretty stupid. From my own experience however, I think the dislike some people have towards Miranda has more to do with her ties to Cerberus than anything else.

That is understandable but it is a mistaken belief.  Her loyalty to Cerberus is not nearly as unconditional as you are led to believe at first.

But I find it odd that that same standard is not applied to Joker or the rest of ther Cerberus crew.

Hate doesn't tend to be rational. Hate of any character in the game tends to be solely emotional and less based on logic. Sad state of humankind, to be honest. As for Joker and the rest of the crew, they weren't Cerberus to begin with. Not that I think they shouldn't be considered to if someone is to criticize Miranda about Cerberus.

[jtav]

Collider, if they kept it to her Cerberus apologetics, I wouldn't have a problem. It's when they say she got her spot by sleeping with TIM or that the mere fact that the sex scene was in the engine room proves the relationship was a fling that I get angry.

[Collider]

jtav wrote...

Collider, if they kept it to her Cerberus apologetics, I wouldn't have a problem. It's when they say she got her spot by sleeping with TIM or that the mere fact that the sex scene was in the engine room proves the relationship was a fling that I get angry.

It's the way the forums works. There are idiots everyone who don't have a clue about the characters. We tend to notice this for more for those who criticize our favorites though, because we're more offended that way. If anyone is suggesting those things, they are trolls, idiots, or grossly misinformed. Although it's hard to stick to, I try to emplyo a philosophy that which I acknowledge that the opinions of morons aren't valuable nor worthy enough to be affect me if I can help it. Even less are the opinions of people specifically trying to annoy other people - which is seen countless times in this forum. Another reason why I want a block button.

[Zulu_DFA]

Valmy wrote...

Her loyalty to Cerberus is not nearly as unconditional as you are led to believe at first.

This is her weak point. I lost all respect for her just for that, especially since she was advertised as Cerberus "loyalist".

[Prudii Aden]

Collider wrote...
P.S. I think the whole "strong women are bad" thing is pretty stupid. From my own experience however, I think the dislike some people have towards Miranda has more to do with her ties to Cerberus than anything else.

I think it's stupid as well, but then again, I'm biased. Most of the women I've spent a significant portion of time would fall under the "strong women" category.

Why do people do it? Some are unwilling to look beyond the surface. Others are idiots. A few are numpties.

[Valmy]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Valmy wrote...

Her loyalty to Cerberus is not nearly as unconditional as you are led to believe at first.

This is her weak point. I lost all respect for her just for that, especially since she was advertised as Cerberus "loyalist".

...being blindly loyal to an organization is a trait worthy of respect?

She was also advertised as a femme fatale but she is not one of those either.

Modifié par Valmy, 21 avril 2010 - 07:38 .

[jtav]

I'm still bitter about the whole femme fatale thing, actually.

And getting worked up about haters occasionally leads to interesting discussions, as here.