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[Ray Joel Oh]

icarus414 wrote...

As an aside, why can't we all be feminists and masculists*? Women in the western world get shafted when it comes to wages and promotions, while men get shafted in the arenas of reproductive and family law. Both are wrong, and both need to be fixed. In fact, why don't we just call ourselves "gender egalitarians" and leave it at that? Leave the Marxism (whether political or philosophical) out of it entirely. Not that there's anything wrong with Marxism. Well, there's probably a lot wrong with Marxism, just like every other philosophy yet concieved, but let's leave that particular can of worms alone, shall we?

I agree completely, and maybe that's one area where it would be beneficial for people to start using a new term so that caring about women's rights doesn't seem to preclude caring about men's rights.  It shouldn't have to be one or the other--the best employee should get the promotion, the best parent should get the kids in a divorce.

I like that Miranda gets people discussing these sorts of issues.  That you respect her as a person and not just as a great body speaks well of the characterization.

[jtav]

Oh, we do. This whole thing got started when I went on the warpath over another poster insinuating that Miranda was incompetent and slept her way to the top and that her love scene made her "shameless." I'm a straight female, so her body has minimal effect on me. I like her for her competence and how terribly interesting I find her. But I have trouble making some people understand that.

[MrNose]

icarus414 wrote...

As an aside, why can't we all be feminists and masculists*? Women in the western world get shafted when it comes to wages and promotions, while men get shafted in the arenas of reproductive and family law. Both are wrong, and both need to be fixed. In fact, why don't we just call ourselves "gender egalitarians" and leave it at that? Leave the Marxism (whether political or philosophical) out of it entirely. Not that there's anything wrong with Marxism. Well, there's probably a lot wrong with Marxism, just like every other philosophy yet concieved, but let's leave that particular can of worms alone, shall we?

*Yes, it's a word.

Agreed. 
Most feminists I've read about who are not influenced by the theoretical background of the second and third wave movement are both feminists and masculists. They're also becoming increasingly influential.   Wendy McElroy springs to minds as a good example of this.  Such gender egalitarianism is certainly a positive trend.

jtav wrote...

I don't know that she needs Shepard
specifically. Name a possible Miranda pairing and I've probably at
least thought about it. But she needs some friend or lover who will
give her emotional support she's clearly not getting pre-game. She
needs someone for whom she is "worth it" for her own sake and not her
abilities. And she needs to be treated as such so that one day she'll
believe it.

I disagree!  Shepard specifically is suited for Miranda because he's her equal.  Miranda has a lot of scar tissue, and she needs help to get rid of it.  Shep is the only one who can do that in my mind, because he's the only one in a position to challenge her.  

Unfortunately, Shep's background isn't as well developed, but I think that Miranda is probably someone who can provide a lot of benefits for him too, beyond simple companionship.  She's a strong figure who brings something new to the table in terms of experiences and knowledge, and can challenge his traditional worldview in a way that's not either racist or "lets kill things". 

[gutty47]

A quick glance at the Garrus thread led me to Woo's smackdown of the Tali thread.

http://social.biowar...ex/2082466&lf=8

Ouch. At least we're on topic most of the time.

[kraidy1117]

gutty47 wrote...

A quick glance at the Garrus thread led me to Woo's smackdown of the Tali thread.
http://social.biowar...ex/2082466&lf=8
Ouch. At least we're on topic most of the time.

Gutty it was a nightmare, simply put if the Tali thread gets closed, then all the other support threads are in danger and one stupid thing will lead to a shutdown.

[Ray Joel Oh]

jtav wrote...

Oh, we do. This whole thing got started when I went on the warpath over another poster insinuating that Miranda was incompetent and slept her way to the top and that her love scene made her "shameless." I'm a straight female, so her body has minimal effect on me. I like her for her competence and how terribly interesting I find her. But I have trouble making some people understand that.

Yeah, I've sometimes wondered who has a harder time being taken seriously, unattractive powerful women or attractive powerful women.  I'm inclined to think the former has a harder time overall, but the latter can get dismissed as eye candy pretty quickly (until they show you what's what).  And sexually empowered women get even more ridicule, especially when they start telling people what to do.

[MrNose]

Ray Joel Oh wrote...

jtav wrote...

Oh, we do. This whole thing got started when I went on the warpath over another poster insinuating that Miranda was incompetent and slept her way to the top and that her love scene made her "shameless." I'm a straight female, so her body has minimal effect on me. I like her for her competence and how terribly interesting I find her. But I have trouble making some people understand that.

Yeah, I've sometimes wondered who has a harder time being taken seriously, unattractive powerful women or attractive powerful women.  I'm inclined to think the former has a harder time overall, but the latter can get dismissed as eye candy pretty quickly (until they show you what's what).  And sexually empowered women get even more ridicule, especially when they start telling people what to do.

Yeah.  As we've seen on this forum.  There are plenty of people who view a sexually active woman as dangerous.  The "engine room, really?" joke thread got hijacked by people claiming that Miranda was an exhibitionist, or that she was doing it as a way of getting to Tali, or something else like that.

I didn't realize that apparently Kasumi actually makes a comment about using the engine room.

[Ray Joel Oh]

I thought Kasumi's comment was funny. I think it's meant to say more about Kasumi than it says about Miranda.

[MrNose]

I find it odd how even though you can't actually have a conversation with Kasumi, she has practically more to say than half the characters. Certainly more than Garrus has to say with his constant calibrating.

[yellowpride]

I don't know why people find it so strange that she'd pick the engine room.  I mean, it makes sense that she wouldn't want to use the captain's quarters, given that it's more Shepard's territory and she'd want to be somewhere more neutral.  Plus, the engine room has a really nice view.

[Valmy]

jtav wrote...

Something interesting from the character discussion group:

Nightwriter said:
I thought Miranda's whole loyalty mission was quite touching.

It was so sad the way Miranda kept insisting Oriana know nothing about
her. As if Miranda's very presence would pollute her sister's "normal"
world somehow.

"No, they're completely normal. I don't want them to know anything."

And prodding her to talk to her sister there at the end was a great touch,
too. Makes you wonder. Oriana is probably what Miranda would be like if
she'd been raised beyond her father's reach - smart, talented, but also
funny, charming, and good-natured. Healthy.

I'm starting to feel sorry for her again. It's almost like she thinks she doesn't deserve to be happy.

Oh she most certainly doesn't.  I think that is why she is so hesitant to have any personal connection, and afraid it will go away ("don't die etc...).

She really loves Oriana and wants her to be happy and is afraid she will ruin it somehow.  It is a real touching mission, it is also the moment I became really fond of Miranda as a character.  I also really like the respect and care that Yvonne Strahovski seemed to put into playing her.

[Valmy]

jtav wrote...

Oh, we do. This whole thing got started when I went on the warpath over another poster insinuating that Miranda was incompetent and slept her way to the top and that her love scene made her "shameless." I'm a straight female, so her body has minimal effect on me. I like her for her competence and how terribly interesting I find her. But I have trouble making some people understand that.

Well as a straight male her body does have an effect on me...but beautiful women with great bodies is no great feat in entertainment.  They are thrown at us ALL THE TIME.  So frankly I don't get the big deal about that.

Miranda is interesting to me because she is a very compelling, flawed, sympathetic, and capable (and rather awesome) character.  I also really love the trend for feminine yet very strong and capable female characters who can engage in romance and have feelings and challenges and not have it effect their competence or ability at all.  Morrigan and Leliana from Dragon Age were also like that.

Modifié par Valmy, 23 avril 2010 - 02:43 .

[Ray Joel Oh]

MrNose wrote...

I find it odd how even though you can't actually have a conversation with Kasumi, she has practically more to say than half the characters. Certainly more than Garrus has to say with his constant calibrating.

I take it as a positive indication that Bioware has noticed and is responding to the complaint that the squadmates run out of things to say so quickly.  And also that nobody except Mordin seems aware of your relationships.  Bodes well for ME3, I think.

Modifié par Ray Joel Oh, 23 avril 2010 - 02:37 .

[MrNose]

Valmy wrote...

[Oh she most certainly doesn't.  I think that is why she is so hesitant to have any personal connection, and afraid it will go away ("don't die etc...).

She really loves Oriana and wants her to be happy and is afraid she will ruin it somehow.  It is a real touching mission, it is also the moment I became really fond of Miranda as a character.  I also really like the respect and care that Yvonne Strahovski seemed to put into playing her.

We've come a long way from this type of voice acting:

0.17: Don't open that door!

[MrNose]

Ray Joel Oh wrote...

MrNose wrote...

I find it odd how even though you can't actually have a conversation with Kasumi, she has practically more to say than half the characters. Certainly more than Garrus has to say with his constant calibrating.

I take it as a positive indication that Bioware has noticed and is responding to the complaint that the squadmates run out of things to say so quickly.  And also that nobody except Mordin seems aware of your relationships.  Bodes well for ME3, I think.

I sure hope so!  Man I love Mordin's relationship advice!
He died my first time through the suicide run, and I immediately did it over and sent him with the crew so that I wouldn't miss out on any Gilbert and Sullivan in ME3.

[Valmy]

MrNose wrote...
We've come a long way from this type of voice acting:

0.17: Don't open that door!

It sounds like they just got a few random people to do the voices.

[Ieldra]

Good morning.



Quiet here today.

[kraidy1117]

Hiya Ieldra, how are you doing today?

[Breakdown Boy]

Morning all!



That Tali thread thing is hectic. wow.



Miranda is somewhat of a interesting character as she was 'created' to be the best a human could be, but she still fails and she takes this failure very personally. She sets high standards for herself and goals and to meet these goals she does what she has to. But when Shepard arrives in her life, she descovers that he can get the job done without compromising who he is. This unsettles her and as a result causes the early tension between them.



She later descovers (only a little) that Shepard is good because of his skill but more importantly it is who he is that defines him, his spirit and character that makes people follow him. And she wants that too.



It's a softening of the heart, which makes her character great.

[MrNose]

Breakdown Boy wrote...

Morning all!

That Tali thread thing is hectic. wow.

Miranda is somewhat of a interesting character as she was 'created' to be the best a human could be, but she still fails and she takes this failure very personally. She sets high standards for herself and goals and to meet these goals she does what she has to. But when Shepard arrives in her life, she descovers that he can get the job done without compromising who he is. This unsettles her and as a result causes the early tension between them.

She later descovers (only a little) that Shepard is good because of his skill but more importantly it is who he is that defines him, his spirit and character that makes people follow him. And she wants that too.

It's a softening of the heart, which makes her character great.

I get the feeling that Shepard sort of broke the Illusive Man's hold on her.  TIM was the most competent man she knew, and to her that meant that he was right.  I think that Shepard showed her that it was ultimately her own judgement that mattered more than anything.

[kraidy1117]

Hey Breakdown and I agree with what you said. Miri did something that TIM did not expect, fall in love with Shepard or realy care for him. This is what TIm was thinking when Miri told him off.

"DAMMIT! She fell for him

[Ieldra]

Morning again. Sorry to be absent, but there's too much work this morning to maintain a strong presence here.

Here's something for you all to think about:

Field operatives often have codenames to hide their identities in communication (at least in fiction, I don't know about reality). I've been thinking of some fitting ones for Miranda, but my brain seems to be a bit clogged today. What do you think she'd like? It should be not too long, somehow connected to her, but not so obviously that you could decipher her role in an operation by hearing it.

I've also noticed that Miranda is finally proceeding to fake her death in the survival game :P Too bad the others distributed their votes between Ashley and Thane.

@Da Shadow Master:
Nice picture.
 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 23 avril 2010 - 07:21 .

[kraidy1117]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Morning again. Sorry to be absent, but there's too much work this morning to maintain a strong presence here.

Here's something for you all to think about:

Field operatives often have codenames to hide their identities in communication (at least in fiction, I don't know about reality). I've been thinking of some fitting ones for Miranda, but my brain seems to be a bit clogged today. What do you think she'd like? It should be not too long, somehow connected to her, but not so obviously that you could decipher her role in an operation by hearing it.

I've also noticed that Miranda is finally proceeding to fake her death in the survival game :P

@Da Shadow Master:
Nice picture.
 

Oh god Ieldra, I just don't have a clue what her codename would be? Cheerleader?

[Ieldra]

kraidy1117 wrote...
Oh god Ieldra, I just don't have a clue what her codename would be? Cheerleader?

LOL.
Probably not, but It would possibly appeal to her dry sense of humor to use a name orignally meant as disparaging, and given by Jack of all people. Implausible for past operations, though.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 23 avril 2010 - 07:27 .