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[kraidy1117]

Valmy wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...
Realy? Then why did she and Legion argue? and whats funny is that the top choice is to tell Tali to stop it, just like for the Jack and Miri argument the top option is to tell Miri to stop it.

Because Tali was not stirring up anything, Legion was sending back classified Quarian information to the Geth.  That is just a bit different than picking a fight for something that happened before with a person who was not even there.

Yet Jack did that, Miri did handel the argument bad by saying she was a mistake, but Jack had no reason to go to her office.

[Valmy]

kraidy1117 wrote...
It was nothing personal, the thing was to get Gillien back with only some caustlies.

To the Illusive Man it was IMO.  He was not going to let Grayson betray him and he did something very reckless by attacking the Quarian fleet.

[jtav]

"Nothing personal" is never an excuse for that kind of thing. Hundreds of people could have died. "Clearly a mistake" was spoken in anger, but a very icy sort of anger. It was calculated to hurt.



That lack of empathy and "ends justify the means" morality are why I wou;dn't really want to be friends with Miranda.

[kraidy1117]

Valmy wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...
It was nothing personal, the thing was to get Gillien back with only some caustlies.

To the Illusive Man it was IMO.  He was not going to let Grayson betray him and he did something very reckless by attacking the Quarian fleet.

Not realy, all TIM could have done is leak that the Quarians kidnapped a human child to the Alliance. There you go, the Alliance attacks the Quarians. TIM did not know the full story, Paul said the Quarians have Gillien (a expansive investment and a long-term project) Golo wanted to come and he turned it into a battleground. He wanted to kill all the Quarians and that was not the plan.

[kraidy1117]

jtav wrote...

"Nothing personal" is never an excuse for that kind of thing. Hundreds of people could have died. "Clearly a mistake" was spoken in anger, but a very icy sort of anger. It was calculated to hurt.

That lack of empathy and "ends justify the means" morality are why I wou;dn't really want to be friends with Miranda.

And Jack deserves it. The whole point why Jack went down to her hidy hole was to stay away from Miri. Jack had no buisness to come up to her office and start being voilent. Jack said right up front she wants to kill Miri, sorry but thats worse then saying "Clearly a mistake" plus Miri has feelings, she is the type of woman who does not show them that much.

[Valmy]

jtav wrote...

"Nothing personal" is never an excuse for that kind of thing. Hundreds of people could have died. "Clearly a mistake" was spoken in anger, but a very icy sort of anger. It was calculated to hurt.

That lack of empathy and "ends justify the means" morality are why I wou;dn't really want to be friends with Miranda.

You are taking it too far.  In both times she had another mission and was being confronted with other things the organization had done, she had nothing to do with, and franky were not relevent to the mission.  I would have been annoyed also.  Or do you like being repeatedly personally attacked for things you didn't do?  Is that the sort of thing an empathetic person enjoys?

Finally Miri showed empathy when she was actually in the facility Jack was kept, strangely she only got mad when Jack was being repeatedly beligerent.

She is task oriented but...seriously?  I guess I have no empathy either then.  If people repeatedly attacked me for bad things the United States had done I would tell them to shove it to. 

[jtav]

You can't deserve to have something like that said to you. Miranda's emotional state could mitigate responsibility, but the words are inexcusable. They were calculated to hurt. I hold Miranda to a higher standard of control than Jack. They were both wrong, and both need to apologize.



I did promise to post an argument.

[Valmy]

jtav wrote...
They were calculated to hurt. I hold Miranda to a higher standard of control than Jack. They were both wrong, and both need to apologize.

I guess I also interpreted that line differently.  I thought she was saying that what the rogue people did to Jack was a mistake, not something Cerberus intended.  How is that calculated to hurt?  I think saying it wasn't a mistake and what happened to Jack was something she deserved would be worse.  I thought she was being defensive rather than trying to tell Jack her entire life was a mistake or something.

Modifié par Valmy, 23 avril 2010 - 07:16 .

[Vyndael]

*munches on popcorn while watching the debate*

[kraidy1117]

jtav wrote...

You can't deserve to have something like that said to you. Miranda's emotional state could mitigate responsibility, but the words are inexcusable. They were calculated to hurt. I hold Miranda to a higher standard of control than Jack. They were both wrong, and both need to apologize.

I did promise to post an argument.

So Jack has free riegn to start the argument, to threaten Miri, to diss her at every turn she gets, but Miri says one thing and you try to say she was wrong?

[jtav]

The line is "Clearly, you were a mistake." Not "The project was a mistake" or "it was a mistake to bring you." Combined with the pure venom in her voice, it's very hard to take it as meaning anything other than Jack the person being a mistake.

[kraidy1117]

jtav wrote...

The line is "Clearly, you were a mistake." Not "The project was a mistake" or "it was a mistake to bring you." Combined with the pure venom in her voice, it's very hard to take it as meaning anything other than Jack the person being a mistake.

The person Jack is now is because of what Cerberus did to her. Jack was taken at a vry young age, and her whole childhood and even some of her teenagehood she was changed into what she is now, subject zero. Saying she was a mistake can be taken as anything, personaly I felt Miri was saying she was a mistake as what she is now should never have happen.

Miri and Jack will never get along, nor will they ever say sorry. Miri might try, but Jack won't.

Modifié par kraidy1117, 23 avril 2010 - 07:26 .

[jtav]

kraidy1117 wrote...

jtav wrote...

You can't deserve to have something like that said to you. Miranda's emotional state could mitigate responsibility, but the words are inexcusable. They were calculated to hurt. I hold Miranda to a higher standard of control than Jack. They were both wrong, and both need to apologize.

I did promise to post an argument.

So Jack has free riegn to start the argument, to threaten Miri, to diss her at every turn she gets, but Miri says one thing and you try to say she was wrong?

Of course not. But that doesn't make Miranda blameless. They are both at fault, though I would assign most of the blame to Jack because she clearly instigated the fight. But I suspect there were a lot of hurtful things said by both sides before Shep walked in.

[Ieldra]

kraidy1117 wrote...

Valmy wrote...

jtav wrote...

Miranda wasn't involved with Teltin. Didn't stop Jack. And she does dismiss the attack as nothing personal.
Miranda really does seem to have a problem with empathy sometimes.

Yep she is task oriented not feelings oriented.

It was nothing personal, the thing was to get Gillien back with only some caustlies. Golo was the one who turned it to a bloody war. Miri has feelings, she just does not show them that much and if she does, well just look at her personal quest or the dialog before the romance is locked (and no, I am not talking about the top choice, the middle choice, then bottom choice)

And that it was nothing personal, does that make it better? I see this expression all the time, and every single time I think "What a load of crap!"
I don't know if Miranda was defensive with Tali or if she does have a problem with empathy sometimes, but she could have answered in a better way. "It was nothing personal" is an insult, especially since it clearly was personal for those who died and their familty and friends.

How she acts fits with her personality, but let's not be blind to her flaws because we like her.

Edit:
About the scene with Jack: "You were a mistake" was intended to hurt, but I can forgive her that here because there was no salvaging the situation anyway without backing down, and that she didn't want that I can very much understand.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 23 avril 2010 - 07:32 .

[kraidy1117]

jtav wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...

jtav wrote...

You can't deserve to have something like that said to you. Miranda's emotional state could mitigate responsibility, but the words are inexcusable. They were calculated to hurt. I hold Miranda to a higher standard of control than Jack. They were both wrong, and both need to apologize.

I did promise to post an argument.

So Jack has free riegn to start the argument, to threaten Miri, to diss her at every turn she gets, but Miri says one thing and you try to say she was wrong?

Of course not. But that doesn't make Miranda blameless. They are both at fault, though I would assign most of the blame to Jack because she clearly instigated the fight. But I suspect there were a lot of hurtful things said by both sides before Shep walked in.

Yes, but Jack takes full blame. Miri could have been nicer, but lets face it. Jack and Miri are not friends, they never wil be. They will never get along (tho they might since Miri quits Cerberus, but thats pushing it)

[Valmy]

jtav wrote...

The line is "Clearly, you were a mistake." Not "The project was a mistake" or "it was a mistake to bring you." Combined with the pure venom in her voice, it's very hard to take it as meaning anything other than Jack the person being a mistake.

That doesn't make any sense.  Jack came and demanded an apology for what Cerberus did to her, and Miranda refused because the whole project was a mistake. 

I guess I do not understand what you are saying Miranda is saying.  It just makes sense to me that an argument over the Subject Zero project would be about the Subject Zero project, not Miranda insisting what?  I guess I find it hard to take it to mean anything other than what seems obvious to me, not some deeper existential insult.

[kraidy1117]

Ieldra2 wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...

Valmy wrote...

jtav wrote...

Miranda wasn't involved with Teltin. Didn't stop Jack. And she does dismiss the attack as nothing personal.
Miranda really does seem to have a problem with empathy sometimes.

Yep she is task oriented not feelings oriented.

It was nothing personal, the thing was to get Gillien back with only some caustlies. Golo was the one who turned it to a bloody war. Miri has feelings, she just does not show them that much and if she does, well just look at her personal quest or the dialog before the romance is locked (and no, I am not talking about the top choice, the middle choice, then bottom choice)

And that it was nothing personal, does that make it better? I see this expression all the time, and every single time I think "What a load of crap!"
I don't know if Miranda was defensive with Tali or if she does have a problem with empathy sometimes, but she could have answered in a better way. "It was nothing personal" is an insult, especially since it clearly was personal for those who died and their familty and friends.

How she acts fits with her personality, but let's not be blind to her flaws because we like her.

To Miri it was not personal at all, it was a poor choice of words and Miri could have said "We did not mean to kill so many inocents" or saomething like that. She does have flaws, but she does have empathy for the people she cares for.

[Valmy]

Ieldra2 wrote...
And that it was nothing personal, does that make it better? I see this expression all the time, and every single time I think "What a load of crap!"
I don't know if Miranda was defensive with Tali or if she does have a problem with empathy sometimes, but she could have answered in a better way. "It was nothing personal" is an insult, especially since it clearly was personal for those who died and their familty and friends.

Yep.  She was thinking about the mission and was trying to, ineptly, show that Cerberus had nothing against the Quarians and was not their enemy.

Modifié par Valmy, 23 avril 2010 - 07:48 .

[Valmy]

kraidy1117 wrote...
To Miri it was not personal at all, it was a poor choice of words and Miri could have said "We did not mean to kill so many inocents" or saomething like that. She does have flaws, but she does have empathy for the people she cares for.

She just wasn't thinking.  To diffuse the situation she probably should have said something like , "On behalf of Cerberus I apologize to the Quarian people we went too far".  But that sort of tact is not really part of her make up.

[Valmy]

jtav wrote...
Of course not. But that doesn't make Miranda blameless. They are both at fault, though I would assign most of the blame to Jack because she clearly instigated the fight. But I suspect there were a lot of hurtful things said by both sides before Shep walked in.

I will say this: Miranda does not back down when challenged even when it would probably be the thing most helpful to the mission.  She never made any effort to placate Jack at all which was not something a leader, even a second in command, would have done.

[jtav]

Yes, Miranda really isn't tactful. At all. And she has tremendous empathy for the people she cares for, but a more generalized compassion is somewhat harder for her, at least when children aren't involved.



And I still want to give her a hug most of the time.

[kraidy1117]

jtav wrote...

Yes, Miranda really isn't tactful. At all. And she has tremendous empathy for the people she cares for, but a more generalized compassion is somewhat harder for her, at least when children aren't involved.

And I still want to give her a hug most of the time.

Miri just needs more hugs but she is still my second in command, tho I bring her and Garrus with me almost everywhere, I wonder who takes care of the ship then? Joker or Tali?

[Ieldra]

Valmy wrote...

jtav wrote...
Of course not. But that doesn't make Miranda blameless. They are both at fault, though I would assign most of the blame to Jack because she clearly instigated the fight. But I suspect there were a lot of hurtful things said by both sides before Shep walked in.

I will say this: Miranda does not back down when challenged even when it would probably be the thing most helpful to the mission.  She never made any effort to placate Jack at all which was not something a leader, even a second in command, would have done.

As I said, I can understand her not backing down when she believes she's right. I also don't think she values Jack as a team member, and I understand that as well - she's too much of a loose cannon when she joins. Maybe she should have been more diplomatic as an XO, and I think she can be - you don't get to be a good field operative without some people skills. She just can't do it with Jack.

[Valmy]

jtav wrote...

Yes, Miranda really isn't tactful.

It is her biggest weakness.  Her impatience with Wilson's errors was one of big reasons he betrayed Cerberus.  It is why she does not command the sort of loyalty Shepard does.

[kraidy1117]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Valmy wrote...

jtav wrote...
Of course not. But that doesn't make Miranda blameless. They are both at fault, though I would assign most of the blame to Jack because she clearly instigated the fight. But I suspect there were a lot of hurtful things said by both sides before Shep walked in.

I will say this: Miranda does not back down when challenged even when it would probably be the thing most helpful to the mission.  She never made any effort to placate Jack at all which was not something a leader, even a second in command, would have done.

As I said, I can understand her not backing down when she believes she's right. I also don't think she values Jack as a team member, and I understand that as well - she's too much of a loose cannon when she joins. Maybe she should have been more diplomatic as an XO, and I think she can be - you don't get to be a good field operative without some people skills. She just can't do it with Jack.

Also Miri said she is onvolved with Cerberus operations that that damanding and dangeorus, well it's safe to say that those operations where succesful, seeing as Miri is stil alive and is still being put in charge of big operations (like the Lazarus operation)