43796 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...

The sad thing? She's probably the most ethical project lead Cerberus has, and her moral compass still doesn't point quite north. She is not what's normally meant by a good person. What she is is fiercely loyal to those she loves, capable of great generosity and affection. But she is also ruthless, with very few things she won't do in pursuit of her goals if she thinks it's the most efficient way.

Okay, that came off a bit harsh. I have a complex relationship with Miranda.

MIranda is a complex person. And I would like to point out that everyone must be able to balance ethics and expediency to seom extent, even more so in a leading position almost anywhere. Only the powerless can afford to be 100% moral.
And even if there are things you'd not allow yourself to do except in the most extreme circumstances, there should be nothing you don't allow yourself to think about.

Miranda's ethics, as I see it, are like this: given the choice, she'll rather use the less problematic methods to reach her goal. Given a certain level of perceived necessity, she'll use the most efficient methods regardless. I think that's how most of us act, it's just that we rarely meet situations where our actions have a large-scale impact, and we're forced to think about future collective benefit vs. present individual suffering - and occasionally find the latter less important. It's all very nice to say Miranda's moral compass doesn't "point north", but I'm convinced that in her position, believing in Cerberus' agenda and with the Reaper threat lurking in the background, most of us would act in a similar way.

 

[Ieldra]

Sixth Goul wrote...

icarus414 wrote...

Heh. Don't we all...

Incidentally, is it just me or is there a very high proportion of Sole Survivor Shepards around here?

Why is that? Sole survivor is so lame,come on thrasher ,really?!

It's easier to kill a thresher maw on foot than from the Mako in ME1. And it's quite possible to run from them - if some high ground is around.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 24 avril 2010 - 06:15 .

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
She's a willfully blind member of a terrorist organization. No question on that for me. *waits patiently for pitchfork wielding mob*

*grabs the pitchfork*

I still like her.

*puts the pitchfork away again*


I don't see Cerberus and Miranda in quite the same light. But yes, she does have her blind spot. She doesn't allow herself to think about that her Cerberus may be responsible for Akuze and Jack. And that, as I pointed about abovethread from another direction, is a flaw.    

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
Cerberus is a terrorist organization. Miranda clings to the "rogue cell" theory in the face of so much evidence that my only explanation is willful blindness to the true nature of he organization.

The evidence is not so strong. Remember Jack's loyalty mission - one of the logs makes it clear that there are things going on the boss doesn't know about and wouldn't like.

I'd like to point out that Akuze and Pragia are the only inexcusable things Cerberus has done IMO if you discount Ascension (which I don't consider as canon). There's no doubt Cerberus is ruthless, but as far as the evidence goes, it may be naive to cling to Miranda's beliefs, but wilfully blind? I give her the benefit of the doubt.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 24 avril 2010 - 06:28 .

[Collider]

Ieldra2 wrote...

jtav wrote...
Cerberus is a terrorist organization. Miranda clings to the "rogue cell" theory in the face of so much evidence that my only explanation is willful blindness to the true nature of he organization.

The evidence is not so strong. Remember Jack's loyalty mission - one of the logs makes it clear that there are things going on the boss doesn't know about and wouldn't like.

I'd like to point out that Akuze and Pragia are the only inexcusable things Cerberus has done IMO if you discount Ascension (which I don't consider as canon). There's no doubt Cerberus is ruthless, but as far as the evidence goes, it may be naive to cling to Miranda's beliefs, but wilfully blind? I give her the benefit of the doubt.

You don't remember how Cerberus killed Kahoku and how Cerberus was testing using the Thorian on humans?

[kraidy1117]

Collider wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

jtav wrote...
Cerberus is a terrorist organization. Miranda clings to the "rogue cell" theory in the face of so much evidence that my only explanation is willful blindness to the true nature of he organization.

The evidence is not so strong. Remember Jack's loyalty mission - one of the logs makes it clear that there are things going on the boss doesn't know about and wouldn't like.

I'd like to point out that Akuze and Pragia are the only inexcusable things Cerberus has done IMO if you discount Ascension (which I don't consider as canon). There's no doubt Cerberus is ruthless, but as far as the evidence goes, it may be naive to cling to Miranda's beliefs, but wilfully blind? I give her the benefit of the doubt.

You don't remember how Cerberus killed Kahoku and how Cerberus was testing using the Thorian on humans?

Kahoku should have went to high command when he found out it was Cerberus, not trying to deal with it himself. Kahoku found something out and Cerberus did not want it to be exposed.

[Collider]

Cerberus was corrupt though, and he was right to try to stop them. Plus you can't excuse Cerberus using the Thorian to test mind control on humans. Or them trying to use the Rachni as soldiers. And all the things Cerberus did in Ascension.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
I am so ridiculously schizophrenic towards Miranda that it's not even funny. I can post all the negative stuff I just did and believe it, but still have my imaginary epilogue where she drops to her knees to embrace her three-year-old daughter and whisper "Mommy's home." Somebody explain that one to me.

It's no contradiction. Miranda can have all the flaws mentioned here and still be a loving mother. Not that I would want to see that epilogue in ME3. That scene is something for 20 years after ME3.

[kraidy1117]

Collider wrote...

Cerberus was corrupt though, and he was right to try to stop them. Plus you can't excuse Cerberus using the Thorian to test mind control on humans. Or them trying to use the Rachni as soldiers. And all the things Cerberus did in Ascension.

Ugh not ascension again. I have argued that topic to death. Oh I don't think Cerberus is good or even evil, something they have done are disgusting, but others where for a good cause. The Asencsion project went rouge. One oft he few that I beleive it did because we saw it.

[Ieldra]

Collider wrote...

Cerberus was corrupt though, and he was right to try to stop them. Plus you can't excuse Cerberus using the Thorian to test mind control on humans. Or them trying to use the Rachni as soldiers. And all the things Cerberus did in Ascension.

(1) Thorian control of humans, that was ExoGeni, not Cerberus.
(2) From the log on Sigma 23, it became clear that Cerberus didn't notice they were intelligent at first.

And as I said, I discount Ascension as canon. Mostly because since Cerberus went from "faceless menace" in ME1 to an organization with at least one common goal with Shepard in ME2. The decision to work with Cerberus must be somewhat palatable to the player, and the pro-Cerberus choice at the end must be seen as somewhat plausible as well as the other. Also, Ascension is over-the-top and makes Cerberus be evil for evil's sake, using not the most efficient, but the most brutal methods imaginable. So I can either believe it's all one huge deception - the Normandy SR2, its (equally deluded) crew, TIM's goals - or there is something at least salvageable about Cerberus.

[kraidy1117]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Collider wrote...

Cerberus was corrupt though, and he was right to try to stop them. Plus you can't excuse Cerberus using the Thorian to test mind control on humans. Or them trying to use the Rachni as soldiers. And all the things Cerberus did in Ascension.

(1) Thorian control of humans, that was ExoGeni, not Cerberus.
(2) From the log on Sigma 23, it became clear that Cerberus didn't notice they were intelligent at first.

And as I said, I discount Ascension as canon. Mostly because since Cerberus went from "faceless menace" in ME1 to an organization with at least one common goal with Shepard in ME2. The decision to work with Cerberus must be somewhat palatable to the player, and the pro-Cerberus choice at the end must be seen as somewhat plausible as well as the other. Also, Ascension is over-the-top and makes Cerberus be evil for evil's sake, using not the most efficient, but the most brutal methods imaginable. So I can either believe it's all one huge deception - the Normandy SR2, its (equally deluded) crew, TIM's goals - or there is something at least salvageable about Cerberus.

Ieldra, Ascension is canon, it was wrote by the lead writer and the one who write half the stuff for ME. It is canon.

[Ieldra]

Da Shadow Master wrote...

Miranda made people magazine lol.:P
../../../../uploads_user/839000/838282/29684.jpg

Just shows that she really is someone

[Ieldra]

kraidy1117 wrote...
Ieldra, Ascension is canon, it was wrote by the lead writer and the one who write half the stuff for ME. It is canon.

Yeah...it's still a bad book. I prefer to discount those.
And looking at Cerberus as presented in ME2 and Ascension I see two very different things. Even TIM is different - almost a classic teeth-gnashing villain in Ascension. The style alone is enough to discount it, even should the pictures prove reconcilable. 

[kraidy1117]

Ieldra2 wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...
Ieldra, Ascension is canon, it was wrote by the lead writer and the one who write half the stuff for ME. It is canon.

Yeah...it's still a bad book. I prefer to discount those.
And looking at Cerberus as presented in ME2 and Ascension I see two very different things. Even TIM is different - almost a classic teeth-gnashing villain in Ascension. The style alone is enough to discount it, even should the pictures prove reconcilable. 

The books are there for information. When I read them, I don't expect anything but info. The next book is going to build a huge bridge for ME3, just like Ascension did for ME2.

[Ieldra]

Here's a question for everyone here:



Am I wrong or is Miranda something of a workaholic? I've been thinking about what Miranda would like to do in her free time, and the most intuitive answer coming into my mind was "What free time?". OK, perhaps not 100% because we know she likes certain music, but all in all she'll rarely do things for fun. Or perhaps not? Will she learn to be less workaholic if she's with Shepard?



What do you think?

[Ieldra]

Miranda waits for....someone...

[jtav]

Workaholic. Definitely. I think she always will be.

Ieldra, what I meant by schizophrenic is that I want her to have a happy ending despite my views on her ethics, not that those ethics would prevent her from being a good parent.

[jtav]

MrNose wrote...

jtav wrote...

What's so deep about that? All I said was that I made a pathetic attempt at making Miranda a little more like me. Like I said,it's not canon, but it's not completely implausible either.

Its not like chronic health conditions are over-represented in fiction eh?  I see nothing wrong with this line of thought.  Given Miranda's age it actually makes a bit of sense to me.

No, they aren't. *grumbles*. The timeline works out (insofar as her being a biotic makes sense in the first place). Probably makes her a bit too Mary Sue though.

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Here's a question for everyone here:

Am I wrong or is Miranda something of a workaholic? I've been thinking about what Miranda would like to do in her free time, and the most intuitive answer coming into my mind was "What free time?". OK, perhaps not 100% because we know she likes certain music, but all in all she'll rarely do things for fun. Or perhaps not? Will she learn to be less workaholic if she's with Shepard?

What do you think?

Well, going on the ending of ME:Galaxy I would say that she does get some R&R time and does utilise it, although some could wonder if she took that up mainly to get Jacob to join Cerberus and so technically she was still sort of 'working'.

As you mentioned, we know she likes music, but people can play music whilst they are working, I would say some prefer to have music on whilst working to help keep their creative juices flowing or simply to inspire them.

Despite all that, I would imagine that she is mostly a workaholic and possibly only takes R&R when TIM orders her too, despite what people say about him, he isn't a complete monster and would know that if people don't get R&R once in a while they could meltdown. After all someone not working at 100% efficiency isn't going to be of use to him

Regarding Ascension, I haven't actually read it cover to cover, just read info that has been posted on the Wiki about it and one thing that has me wondering is with regards TIMs thoughts on the Migrant Fleet.

From what I've read in the book he sees it as a threat and wants it destroyed... yet... if you go do Talis mission and hand the evidence over, (can't remember if same thing is said if you don't) he shows concerns about the Quarians being in disarray and believes will need their help to fight the Reaper... sooo if that is the case, why was the numbskull trying to destroy the fleet earlier?

I had my Jack Shepard initially not bother helping Tali with her loyalty mission (even though she gonna die either way) but after reading the notes about Ascension I figured if my Jack is totally Cerberus now, then he'd do his best to disrupt the fleet (going by what said in Ascension), so I went and handed the evidence over then got the aforementioned post-mission report. So now am wondering whether should go try telling them to NOT go to war or not (oh and of course not handing the evidence over)

Keeping with the Ascension story I now know about the person TIM was trying to make as the 'super soldier'/one whom will save humanity. If Miri considers herself Shep's equal, wouldn't TIM have done that stuff to her?

Modifié par Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien, 24 avril 2010 - 02:33 .

[Ieldra]

Thread Project: The Miranda Lawson fact sheet

I'm trying to put together a Miranda Lawson fact sheet or character profile, combining everything we know about her with those speculative elements that have reached a consensus here. Unfortunately, it's impossible to go over the whole thread, not because it can't be done but because going through all the OT stuff is so boring. So, if you remember anything discussed about Miranda's attributes, preferences, personality traits etc., a few words as a reminder would be appreciated.

I'll start with a few facts I remember.

Personal data:
First name: Miranda
Family name: unknown. "Lawson" is very likely an alias (thread consensus)
Date of birth: June 21, 2150 (the southern hemisphere's winter solstice, thread consensus)
Place of birth: somewhere in Australia (in my fanfic, I put her home at Melbourne because it probably has the best quality of life of all Australian cities under conditions of a global warming. Her father wouldn't want to be anywhere else)
Parents' name: no mother, father's name unknown. There may be a surrogate mother (any insights?).

Physical appearance:
Height: unknown (about average, if I had to guess. What's that in 2185 - 175cm?
Body type: athletic (speculation, but she'd have to be for what she does. Taking Yvonne Strahovski as inspiration seems somewhat appropriate)
Eye color: blue-grey
Hair color: black (it's really very dark brown, but shows as black in almost any light, so for all practical purposes it's black).
Distinctive features: none

Profession keywords:
Espionage (infiltration, social engineering), science (life sciences: biology, medicine, genetics), management (scientific coordinator), technical (computer security, cryptography, electronic warfare), combat (small arms).

Preferences:
Music: Carl Nielsen, Symphony No. 5.
Poetry: "Prometheus", by J.W.v.Goethe (thread consensus)
Drink: Champagne (ME:Galaxy), Cabernet Sauvignon (thread consensus - probably Australian, they make the best), Chocolate (thread consensus)
Food: ??? Probably likes sweets. Otherwise various suggestions, no consensus (I've suggested a preference for seafood.)

Personality traits:
(a lot of discussion went into this. I'm still trying to summarize it in a way that doesn't take pages)


Anything to add? Criticism? Any attempt at summarizing her personality traits? The "thread consensus" may have depended on who was present at the time, so it may not be much of one in one or the other case. I consider all of them appropriate, though.

[Ieldra]

@Sir Ulrich:
TIM in Ascension and TIM in ME2 are irreconcilable IMO. Really, Karpyshyn couldn't do subtle if you pointed a gun at him. Which makes him incompetent to write about TIM. He may be a diehard human supremacist, but he's not a primitive one. That's what makes him dangerous. Ascension's TIM is a joke, and his plots against the quarian fleet make no sense considering his bigger schemes.

Edit:
IIRC; the super soldier doesn't feature prominently in Ascension, unless it's about biotic potential as a necessary attribute of such an entity. But the super soldier project is mentioned in ME1, I think it was by Kahoku.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 24 avril 2010 - 03:13 .

[icarus414]

I'm not really a fan of including items of thread consensus in what's ostensibly a list of facts, but I can't say I disagree with most of them. As long as we're going to go there, I'd be inclined to add chocolate limes as a specific subset of "sweets" - they somehow seem right up her alley.

[MrNose]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@Sir Ulrich:
TIM in Ascension and TIM in ME2 are irreconcilable IMO. Really, Karpyshyn couldn't do subtle if you pointed a gun at him. Which makes him incompetent to write about TIM. He may be a diehard human supremacist, but he's not a primitive one. That's what makes him dangerous. Ascension's TIM is a joke, and his plots against the quarian fleet make no sense considering his bigger schemes.

Edit:
IIRC; the super soldier doesn't feature prominently in Ascension, unless it's about biotic potential as a necessary attribute of such an entity. But the super soldier project is mentioned in ME1, I think it was by Kahoku.

Man...  Really wish I had taken the time to do the sidequests in ME1.  My Shepard has literally no past with Cerberus.

Anyway:  I agree, TIM in Ascension doesn't meld with TIM in ME2.  It just doesn't make sense to me.

One thing that bothered me is in the game, Tali and Miranda both seem to feel like the other's group has done their group wrong.  It feels very much like the past dealings between Cerberus and the Quarians were complex and subtle, rather than the way they were presented in Ascension, when Cerberus attacked them plain and simple. 

I cannot think of any way that Miranda and Tali could be referring to the events of Ascension.  It just doesn't make sense to me. 

So that's why I go with the game's version: I bought Ascension in ME2 and the codex entry said that it was an "Alternate History" book.  To me that means that it isn't canon.

[jtav]

I like the idea of a fact sheet, but I'd stick to things stated by canon sources. No matter how plausible our speculation, it's still just fanon.

[jtav]

We are dead today. So a bit of fun discussion.



What do Miranda and Shepard do as a couple when not saving the galaxy? Besides the obvious.