43796 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

kraidy1117 wrote...
"You live because we allow it." Using Reaper tech on a Reaper is not smart. For all we know Harbinger could expect that Shepard might use the base. The thing is you are building an army. While a fleet won't be abl;e to beat the reapers, I keep thinknig Return of the king with the final battle. They will be a distraction so Shepard can sneak and beat the Reapers that way. The thing is, EDI did a huge datamine on the Collector ship and could have laso did a datamine on the base when Shepard and co where on there way to blow up the base. We have alot of info, using reaper tech that could maket he situtation worse, I just can't. I am thinknig of the long-term effects.

How many times must I repeat it: the technology itself is not important, but the knowledge it represents. Just as if you know how an ICBM works, you can think about, and maybe develop, means to disable or divert one before it destroys a city. That kind of knowlegde. Not to use such in the face of a possible exinction event is inexcusable.

BTW: The results of some data mining of which you have no idea whether they exist or not are not a convincing argument.

Also, you don't know the long-term effects. You don't know how indoctrination can be resisted. You don't know so many things about the Reapers, how can you ever hope to defeat them? 

[kraidy1117]

Ieldra2 wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...
"You live because we allow it." Using Reaper tech on a Reaper is not smart. For all we know Harbinger could expect that Shepard might use the base. The thing is you are building an army. While a fleet won't be abl;e to beat the reapers, I keep thinknig Return of the king with the final battle. They will be a distraction so Shepard can sneak and beat the Reapers that way. The thing is, EDI did a huge datamine on the Collector ship and could have laso did a datamine on the base when Shepard and co where on there way to blow up the base. We have alot of info, using reaper tech that could maket he situtation worse, I just can't. I am thinknig of the long-term effects.

How many times must I repeat it: the technology itself is not important, but the knowledge it represents. Just as if you know how an ICBM works, you can think about, and maybe develop, means to disable or divert one before it destroys a city. That kind of knowlegde. Not to use such in the face of a possible exinction event is inexcusable.

BTW: The results of some data mining of which you have no idea whether they exist or not are not a convincing argument.

Also, you don't know the long-term effects. You don't know how indoctrination can be resisted. You don't know so many things about the Reapers, how can you ever hope to defeat them? 

But is the risk worth it. What happens if the Reapers are defeted, but something happens with the base and that causes a war, a war that would do too much damage. I do think that Bioware should punish the people who destoryed the base, it's logical, but we should also be rewared in a sence. I just have a hard time keeping the base. I don't know, it just seems wrong to me.

[Ieldra]

kraidy1117 wrote...
The reason why it is because Reaper tech always turns into a disaster. There is alot of factors that could make the whole thing blow up our face. Now I hope BW does give us some things that will bite us in the ass. Like maybe some importent characters die if you don't keep the base. I expect something bad will happen, but looking at the long term effects, it's not worth it. Oh god, I feel like an Asari.

Always turns into a disaster? You don't know that. You know Saren was indoctrinated, yes. You can also suspect Cerberus scientists bit off a bit more than they could handle on the derelict Reaper. But you already know more about the Reapers than the Protheans did before they were wiped out. Knowlege, not military might, not moral righteousness, not courage and spirit alone is what will ultimately defeat the Reapers. In the end, this is all about science and technology, not about some Cthulhu-esque monster we'll come to serve forever if we look it into the eye and lose our sanity.

[kraidy1117]

Ieldra2 wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...
The reason why it is because Reaper tech always turns into a disaster. There is alot of factors that could make the whole thing blow up our face. Now I hope BW does give us some things that will bite us in the ass. Like maybe some importent characters die if you don't keep the base. I expect something bad will happen, but looking at the long term effects, it's not worth it. Oh god, I feel like an Asari.

Always turns into a disaster? You don't know that. You know Saren was indoctrinated, yes. You can also suspect Cerberus scientists bit off a bit more than they could handle on the derelict Reaper. But you already know more about the Reapers than the Protheans did before they were wiped out. Knowlege, not military might, not moral righteousness, not courage and spirit alone is what will ultimately defeat the Reapers. In the end, this is all about science and technology, not about some Cthulhu-esque monster we'll come to serve forever if we look it into the eye and lose our sanity.

Reapers remind me of Cthulhu and cuttlefish.

[kraidy1117]

MIRI!!!!!

[fongiel24]

kraidy1117 wrote...

But is the risk worth it. What happens if the Reapers are defeted, but something happens with the base and that causes a war, a war that would do too much damage. I do think that Bioware should punish the people who destoryed the base, it's logical, but we should also be rewared in a sence. I just have a hard time keeping the base. I don't know, it just seems wrong to me.

Do too much damage? As in more damage than the complete destruction of sapient life in the galaxy? Any kind of war, no matter how horrific, would be preferable compared to the complete and utter annihilation of sapient life in the galaxy.

Are there a lot of risks in using or even studying that kind of technology? Undoubtedly. But given the stakes here, I would say the potential benefits probably outweigh the risks.

[fongiel24]

Da Shadow Master wrote...

Just stopping in to say goodnight all

A random Miri pic for you all.
../../../../uploads_user/839000/838282/30530.jpg

Where do you guys find all these Miri pics? Not that I'm complaining, just curious .

[kraidy1117]

fongiel24 wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...

But is the risk worth it. What happens if the Reapers are defeted, but something happens with the base and that causes a war, a war that would do too much damage. I do think that Bioware should punish the people who destoryed the base, it's logical, but we should also be rewared in a sence. I just have a hard time keeping the base. I don't know, it just seems wrong to me.

Do too much damage? As in more damage than the complete destruction of sapient life in the galaxy? Any kind of war, no matter how horrific, would be preferable compared to the complete and utter annihilation of sapient life in the galaxy.

Are there a lot of risks in using or even studying that kind of technology? Undoubtedly. But given the stakes here, I would say the potential benefits probably outweigh the risks.

Look at every experiment done with Reaper tech so far. It has led to disaster. While the base could be helpful and will result in less death, there is somethings that can happen. The Galaxy does not need a war right after the Reapers are done. I support punishment if you destory the base because it makes sence, but you should als be rewarded in a way.

[Ieldra]

kraidy1117 wrote...
But is the risk worth it. What happens if the Reapers are defeted, but something happens with the base and that causes a war, a war that would do too much damage. I do think that Bioware should punish the people who destoryed the base, it's logical, but we should also be rewared in a sence. I just have a hard time keeping the base. I don't know, it just seems wrong to me.

The thing is: you don't know. We have two small instances of bad effects of Reaper technology. We have absolutely no knowledge of what would happen if humans acquired the knowledge contained therein. Apart from these events, we have nothing to make a decision from. What you're doing is to invoke possible consquences you can *never* know to reinforce the moral intuition that "it just seems wrong".

Well, for me, "it just seems wrong" isn't enough. I need something more tangible, for an informed decision.

Edit:
QED in your last post. Suddenly using the Reaper tech *will* result in a war? That's your imagination speaking here, not reasoning. BTW, I might argue if we don't use that base, there will never be any wars any more - because everyone who could fight one will be dead or transformed into something Collector-like.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 01 mai 2010 - 07:58 .

[fongiel24]

Just found this. For all Chuck fans in Chicago, Seattle, San Diego, and Philadelphia who want to see NBC pick up season 4.

Dammit forgot the link:
http://www.hollywood...bc9ae764699c6ae

Modifié par fongiel24, 01 mai 2010 - 08:04 .

[kraidy1117]

Ieldra2 wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...
But is the risk worth it. What happens if the Reapers are defeted, but something happens with the base and that causes a war, a war that would do too much damage. I do think that Bioware should punish the people who destoryed the base, it's logical, but we should also be rewared in a sence. I just have a hard time keeping the base. I don't know, it just seems wrong to me.

The thing is: you don't know. We have two small instances of bad effects of Reaper technology. We have absolutely no knowledge of what would happen if humans acquired the knowledge contained therein. Apart from these events, we have nothing to make a decision from. What you're doing is to invoke possible consquences you can *never* know to reinforce the moral intuition that "it just seems wrong"?

Well, for me, "it just seems wrong" isn't enough. I need something more tangible, for an informed decision.

But would you risk it? Yes we defet the Reapers, but what happens if TIM decided to make a baby Reaper? There is alot of factors that can happen. I expect something bad to happen if you destory the base, but there is too many things that can happen. Even without the base there is still away to beat the reapers. Move the Rthe Citidal near a blackhole, then turn it on. The perfect trap. This will destory the Citidal, but there is many ways to beat the Reapers. All the base does is it make more easy.

Also get that weapon owkring and the base will not even be needed. The base is not needed, all it does is give you a bigger edge, but you still have a edge because of one thing, somethnig that will come in handly. Her name is EDI. EDI is infact a Reaper because she is made from Nazara remains, and she can hack ships and even attack Reaper ships from the inside.

Modifié par kraidy1117, 01 mai 2010 - 07:59 .

[fongiel24]

kraidy1117 wrote...

Look at every experiment done with Reaper tech so far. It has led to disaster. While the base could be helpful and will result in less death, there is somethings that can happen. The Galaxy does not need a war right after the Reapers are done. I support punishment if you destory the base because it makes sence, but you should als be rewarded in a way.

How do we know the situation we face is "use the base and there will be less casualties when we fight the reapers" and not "use the base or all sapient life in the galaxy dies"? What if the base turns out to be "essential" rather than just "helpful"? If using knowledge from that base turns out to be the thin edge of the sword on which the survival of the galaxy rests upon, then having a galaxy-wide war after the Reapers have been defeated is a preferable alternative. At least some of the galaxy's sapient races will survive a galaxy-wide war amongst each other (such a war always has to have winners). There is no recovery from a Reaper victory.

Since we can metagame though and know that Bioware will allow us to win in ME3 even if we destroy the base (I hope, otherwise a lot of people are going to be a little upset), I agree with you that there should be some consequences for your decision here.

[kraidy1117]

Man I almost forgot about EDI for a second, she makes the base kinda useless.

[Ieldra]

kraidy1117 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...
But is the risk worth it. What happens if the Reapers are defeted, but something happens with the base and that causes a war, a war that would do too much damage. I do think that Bioware should punish the people who destoryed the base, it's logical, but we should also be rewared in a sence. I just have a hard time keeping the base. I don't know, it just seems wrong to me.

The thing is: you don't know. We have two small instances of bad effects of Reaper technology. We have absolutely no knowledge of what would happen if humans acquired the knowledge contained therein. Apart from these events, we have nothing to make a decision from. What you're doing is to invoke possible consquences you can *never* know to reinforce the moral intuition that "it just seems wrong"?

Well, for me, "it just seems wrong" isn't enough. I need something more tangible, for an informed decision.

But would you risk it? Yes we defet the Reapers, but what happens if TIM decided to make a baby Reaper? There is alot of factors that can happen. I expect something bad to happen if you destory the base, but there is too many things that can happen. Even without the base there is still away to beat the reapers. Move the Reaper near a blackhole, then turn it on. The perfect trap. This will destory the Citidal, but there is many ways to beat the Reapers. All the base does is it make more easy.

You don't know that you'll be able to beat the Reapers without the base. That's meta-knowledge your Shepard does not have. Again, you're twisting the facts to reinforce the moral stance (and not one I'd agree with in the first place). For all we know, not using the base may mean extinction. Facing a technology we haven't the faintest idea of how it works, this seems infinitely more plausible than the blithe assumption there'll be another way.
So, would I risk it? Can there be any answer but "yes"?

Modifié par Ieldra2, 01 mai 2010 - 08:04 .

[kraidy1117]

fongiel24 wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...

Look at every experiment done with Reaper tech so far. It has led to disaster. While the base could be helpful and will result in less death, there is somethings that can happen. The Galaxy does not need a war right after the Reapers are done. I support punishment if you destory the base because it makes sence, but you should als be rewarded in a way.

How do we know the situation we face is "use the base and there will be less casualties when we fight the reapers" and not "use the base or all sapient life in the galaxy dies"? What if the base turns out to be "essential" rather than just "helpful"? If using knowledge from that base turns out to be the thin edge of the sword on which the survival of the galaxy rests upon, then having a galaxy-wide war after the Reapers have been defeated is a preferable alternative. At least some of the galaxy's sapient races will survive a galaxy-wide war amongst each other (such a war always has to have winners). There is no recovery from a Reaper victory.

Since we can metagame though and know that Bioware will allow us to win in ME3 even if we destroy the base (I hope, otherwise a lot of people are going to be a little upset), I agree with you that there should be some consequences for your decision here.

Oh I think if you have made alot of bad choices, the Reapers should win, but destorying the base should not make you lsoe the war. It should bite you in the ass.

[vallix]

kraidy1117 wrote...


But would you risk it? Yes we defet the Reapers, but what happens if TIM decided to make a baby Reaper? There is alot of factors that can happen. I expect something bad to happen if you destory the base, but there is too many things that can happen. Even without the base there is still away to beat the reapers. Move the Rthe Citidal near a blackhole, then turn it on. The perfect trap. This will destory the Citidal, but there is many ways to beat the Reapers. All the base does is it make more easy.

Also get that weapon owkring and the base will not even be needed. The base is not needed, all it does is give you a bigger edge, but you still have a edge because of one thing, somethnig that will come in handly. Her name is EDI. EDI is infact a Reaper because she is made from Nazara remains, and she can hack ships and even attack Reaper ships from the inside.

Why do you expect something bad to happen? The Reapers will be down on there knees or utterly destroyed by the end of ME3 rather you chose to destroy the base or not. I doubt it'll have a huge impact in ME3 either, we all saw what happen after the months and months of "kill the council or not" speculation, it had next to no change in the experience.

There  will be a convient plot shift that starts us all in the same place, just like ME2.

Modifié par vallix, 01 mai 2010 - 08:06 .

[kraidy1117]

Ieldra2 wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...
But is the risk worth it. What happens if the Reapers are defeted, but something happens with the base and that causes a war, a war that would do too much damage. I do think that Bioware should punish the people who destoryed the base, it's logical, but we should also be rewared in a sence. I just have a hard time keeping the base. I don't know, it just seems wrong to me.

The thing is: you don't know. We have two small instances of bad effects of Reaper technology. We have absolutely no knowledge of what would happen if humans acquired the knowledge contained therein. Apart from these events, we have nothing to make a decision from. What you're doing is to invoke possible consquences you can *never* know to reinforce the moral intuition that "it just seems wrong"?

Well, for me, "it just seems wrong" isn't enough. I need something more tangible, for an informed decision.

But would you risk it? Yes we defet the Reapers, but what happens if TIM decided to make a baby Reaper? There is alot of factors that can happen. I expect something bad to happen if you destory the base, but there is too many things that can happen. Even without the base there is still away to beat the reapers. Move the Reaper near a blackhole, then turn it on. The perfect trap. This will destory the Citidal, but there is many ways to beat the Reapers. All the base does is it make more easy.

You don't know that you'll be able to beat the Reapers without the base. That's meta-knowledge your Shepard does not have. Again, you're twisting the facts to reinforce the moral stance. For all we know, not using the base may mean extinction. Facing a technology we haven't the faintest idea of how it works, this seems infinitely more plausible than the blithe assumption there'll be another way.
So, would I risk it? Can there be any answer but "yes"?

How do you know the base will do anything. Hell Bioware could pull a fast one on us and make that the Reapers win no matter what (they won't but it would be funny) The point is we don't know what the base could do. It could be helpful or it could not and become a liablity.

[kraidy1117]

vallix wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...


But would you risk it? Yes we defet the Reapers, but what happens if TIM decided to make a baby Reaper? There is alot of factors that can happen. I expect something bad to happen if you destory the base, but there is too many things that can happen. Even without the base there is still away to beat the reapers. Move the Rthe Citidal near a blackhole, then turn it on. The perfect trap. This will destory the Citidal, but there is many ways to beat the Reapers. All the base does is it make more easy.

Also get that weapon owkring and the base will not even be needed. The base is not needed, all it does is give you a bigger edge, but you still have a edge because of one thing, somethnig that will come in handly. Her name is EDI. EDI is infact a Reaper because she is made from Nazara remains, and she can hack ships and even attack Reaper ships from the inside.

Why do you expect something bad to happen? The Reapers will be down on there knees or utterly destroyed by the end of ME3 rather you chose to destroy the base or not. I doubt it'll have a huge impact in ME3 either, we all saw what happen after the months and months of "kill the council or not" speculation, it had next to no change in the experience.

There  will be a convient plot shift that starts us all in the same place, just like ME2.

Yes because Bioware would have made choices affect ME2! ME3 is diffrent then ME2. Bioware does not need to worry about anything. Realy, Bioware does not show big things about your choices and people go "ME3 will do the same!"

[Ieldra]

kraidy1117 wrote...
Oh I think if you have made alot of bad choices, the Reapers should win, but destorying the base should not make you lsoe the war. It should bite you in the ass.

It will probably be that way. But: Shepard doesn't know he lives in a narrative where avoiding decisions for no better reason than "it somehow seems wrong" don't have irreversible bad consequences. If you take your roleplaying seriously and don't use meta-knowledge, then the question might be: Are you prepared to sacrifice intelligent life in the galaxy for a single human's imperfect moral intuition?

[fongiel24]

kraidy1117 wrote...

Oh I think if you have made alot of bad choices, the Reapers should win, but destorying the base should not make you lsoe the war. It should bite you in the ass.

As a fictional video game, destroying the base should not make you lose the war, but as an in-game character, how would Shepherd know that?

As of the end of ME2, how much does anybody know about the Reapers? Yes EDI is very capable and has learned more about the Collectors and Reapers than anybody in the galaxy but how much time has she really had to mine data? The Reapers are millions of years old. EDI has had at most a few hours to mine data from a Collector ship and a Collector base. Would the Collectors necessarily have a database that contains the secret knowledge required to defeat the Reapers? For some reason I doubt that.

Argh... we keep ninja-ing each other Ieldra

Modifié par fongiel24, 01 mai 2010 - 08:09 .

[kraidy1117]

The thing you guys seem to forget is EDI is a Reaper, Bioware might not want to admit but she is. She is made from Nazara remains. We also know she can override things in ships and can attack reapers. If EDI was not in the game, I would have kept the base, but EDI is there. People kept saying this with the council, but as we all know, saving the council was in-fact the best choice. The base could be helpful or not. We don't know. For all we know the base could just hold info to make a Reaper and nothing on how to destory it.

Modifié par kraidy1117, 01 mai 2010 - 08:13 .

[vallix]

Ieldra2 wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...
Oh I think if you have made alot of bad choices, the Reapers should win, but destorying the base should not make you lsoe the war. It should bite you in the ass.

It will probably be that way. But: Shepard doesn't know he lives in a narrative where avoiding decisions for no better reason than "it somehow seems wrong" don't have irreversible bad consequences. If you take your roleplaying seriously and don't use meta-knowledge, then the question might be: Are you prepared to sacrifice intelligent life in the galaxy for a single human's imperfect moral intuition?

For us, keeping the base was a liability and we felt it'd do more harm than good I really don't see why that's so hard to understand.

As has been said before, fighting fire with fire has never been a bright idea. Also, the Illusive Man is not to be trusted. Even if he claimed he'd only steal the knowledge and look for any type of weakpoint in the reapers he'd have something else going you wouldn't know about.

Modifié par vallix, 01 mai 2010 - 08:20 .

[Ieldra]

kraidy1117 wrote...
How do you know the base will do anything. Hell Bioware could pull a fast one on us and make that the Reapers win no matter what (they won't but it would be funny) The point is we don't know what the base could do. It could be helpful or it could not and become a liablity.

I don't exactly know. Not in the mathematical sense of the word. But considering the history of the sapient races, acquiring or even deciphering the enemy's technology in a war has most often helped, and rarely, if anywhere, hindered. If empirical knowledge counts for anything, acquiring the knowledge about the Reaper tech will help.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 01 mai 2010 - 08:17 .

[kraidy1117]

It can help, but theres alot of other stuff that can help. All the base will do is result in alot less death. Even without meta-gaming, destorying the base would not make the Reapers win. If anything it would shock the Reapers. Do you realy think Harbinger did not warn the other Reapers that humans have the base now and they can easly find a way to stop you? That could happen. There is too many varables for both arguments. I simply don't trust TIM, and I have alot of stuff with me that can help. PLus in ME3 we don't know if we will find anything else.

Modifié par kraidy1117, 01 mai 2010 - 08:21 .