43796 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

vallix wrote...
For us, keeping the base was a liability and we felt it'd do more than good I really don't see why that's so hard to understand.

Yes, I find it hard to understand how the base can be a liability if you're face with extinction anyway.

As has been said before, fighting fire with fire has never been a bright idea.

Deciphering an enemy's technology does not mean fighting fire with fire. It means having the knowledge to make better fire extinguishers.

Also, the Illusive Man is not to be trusted. Even if he claimed he'd only steal the knowledge and look for any type of weakpoint in the reapers he'd have something else going you wouldn't know about.

As I said, "TIM can't be trusted" is a strong argument. It's not enough for me, but it's certainly stronger than "inherent risks in acquiring a certain technology".

[vallix]

kraidy1117 wrote...

It can help, but theres alot of other stuff that can help. All the base will do is result in alot less death. Even without meta-gaming, destorying the base would not make the Reapers win. If anything it would shock the Reapers. Do you realy think Harbinger did not warn the other Reapers that humans have the base now and they can easly find a way to stop you? That could happen. There is too many varables for both arguments. I simply don't trust TIM, and I have alot of stuff with me that can help. PLus in ME3 we don't know if we will find anything else.

Or they'd learn a little something called fear once they realize you've literally destroyed 2 of their petty attempts to work their way into the destruction of your galaxy.

[fongiel24]

kraidy1117 wrote...

The thing you guys seem to forget is EDI is a Reaper, Bioware might not want to admit but she is. She is made from Nazara remains. We also know she can override things in ships and can attack reapers. If EDI was not in the game, I would have kept the base, but EDI is there. People kept saying this with the council, but as we all know, saving the council was in-fact the best choice. The base could be helpful or not. We don't know. For all we know the base could just hold info to make a Reaper and nothing on how to destory it.

EDI incorporated elements of Nazara but she is not a Reaper. I can rip a rear view mirror off a Ferrari and stick it to my Civic but that doesn't make it a Ferrari. We know EDI is very capable at cyberwarfare, but we have no evidence she can attack Reapers. She's never even encountered one, other than the already-dead Reaper we get the IFF from. In that case, EDI wasn't even able to turn off the mass effect core of a nonresponsive Reaper.

If you can figure out how something is constructed, you can use that knowledge to deconstruct it. Being able to study an intact Reaper or plans for an intact Reaper could yield intelligence on things like what it's made of, what holds it together, where it's structural weaknesses are, where it's "brain" is located. All of these things would be immensely helpful in figuring out how to defeat the Reapers.

And if it yields nothing, that's equally helpful because then the galaxy knows there truly is no hope and can end this charade of resistance, thus removing the need for Bioware to make ME3 (I'm just joking... please don't choose this option Bioware).

[Ieldra]

kraidy1117 wrote...
It can help, but theres alot of other stuff that can help. All the base will do is result in alot less death. Even without meta-gaming, destorying the base would not make the Reapers win. If anything it would shock the Reapers.

Oh really?How do you know they'll not be delighted at the stupidity of the decision? How do you know that the base won't be just the last little thing to tip the balance?

Do you realy think Harbinger did not warn the other Reapers that humans have the base now and they can easly find a way to stop you? That could happen. There is too many varables for both arguments. I simply don't trust TIM, and I have alot of stuff with me that can help. PLus in ME3 we don't know if we will find anything else.

Yes, exactly: we don't know if we can find anything else that will help us against the Reapers, and we DO know that what he have is very likely not enough.
QED.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 01 mai 2010 - 08:26 .

[vallix]

Ieldra2 wrote...

vallix wrote...
For us, keeping the base was a liability and we felt it'd do more than good I really don't see why that's so hard to understand.

Yes, I find it hard to understand how the base can be a liability if you're face with extinction anyway.

As has been said before, fighting fire with fire has never been a bright idea.

Deciphering an enemy's technology does not mean fighting fire with fire. It means having the knowledge to make better fire extinguishers.

Also, the Illusive Man is not to be trusted. Even if he claimed he'd only steal the knowledge and look for any type of weakpoint in the reapers he'd have something else going you wouldn't know about.

As I said, "TIM can't be trusted" is a strong argument. It's not enough for me, but it's certainly stronger than "inherent risks in acquiring a certain technology".

That's the entire point. Once TIM learns the technology, he'll use it. Just look at EDI. I would never have had EDI above my ship if it were up to me, even if she did later on prove useful in saving the Normandy 2. Not everyone has the same level of trust or eagerness as you do, we're paranoid and for good reason.

[kraidy1117]

fongiel24 wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...

The thing you guys seem to forget is EDI is a Reaper, Bioware might not want to admit but she is. She is made from Nazara remains. We also know she can override things in ships and can attack reapers. If EDI was not in the game, I would have kept the base, but EDI is there. People kept saying this with the council, but as we all know, saving the council was in-fact the best choice. The base could be helpful or not. We don't know. For all we know the base could just hold info to make a Reaper and nothing on how to destory it.

EDI incorporated elements of Nazara but she is not a Reaper. I can rip a rear view mirror off a Ferrari and stick it to my Civic but that doesn't make it a Ferrari. We know EDI is very capable at cyberwarfare, but we have no evidence she can attack Reapers. She's never even encountered one, other than the already-dead Reaper we get the IFF from. In that case, EDI wasn't even able to turn off the mass effect core of a nonresponsive Reaper.

If you can figure out how something is constructed, you can use that knowledge to deconstruct it. Being able to study an intact Reaper or plans for an intact Reaper could yield intelligence on things like what it's made of, what holds it together, where it's structural weaknesses are, where it's "brain" is located. All of these things would be immensely helpful in figuring out how to defeat the Reapers.

And if it yields nothing, that's equally helpful because then the galaxy knows there truly is no hope and can end this charade of resistance, thus removing the need for Bioware to make ME3 (I'm just joking... please don't choose this option Bioware).

Yes lets keep a base, and what if Shepard dies taking down the Reapers and TIm or someother loony goes on a power-trip and makes a Reaper? There you go, MORW REAPERS! Keeping the base is not smart because more reapers can be made.Anything can happen.

[Ieldra]

@fongiel:

People repeat again and again that EDI has incorporated parts of Nazara. Where does the game tell us that?



Otherwise, I agree with you (to no one's surprise, I'm sure).

[kraidy1117]

Ieldra2 wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...
It can help, but theres alot of other stuff that can help. All the base will do is result in alot less death. Even without meta-gaming, destorying the base would not make the Reapers win. If anything it would shock the Reapers.

Oh really?How do you know they'll not be delighted at the stupidity of the decision? How do you know that the base won't be just the last little thing to tip the balance?

Do you realy think Harbinger did not warn the other Reapers that humans have the base now and they can easly find a way to stop you? That could happen. There is too many varables for both arguments. I simply don't trust TIM, and I have alot of stuff with me that can help. PLus in ME3 we don't know if we will find anything else.

Yes, exactly: we don't know if we can find anything else that will help us against the Reapers, and we DO know that what he have is very likely not enough.
QED.

Again, we don't know. Thats the point, you don't know the base could be helpful like I don't know the base will bring destruction. We both don't know. Bioware can do anything. Hell they could surprise us all and the the Reapers blow up the base.

[kraidy1117]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@fongiel:
People repeat again and again that EDI has incorporated parts of Nazara. Where does the game tell us that?

Otherwise, I agree with you (to no one's surprise, I'm sure).

Talk to EDI after the Collectors kidnap your crew. She also reveals she canattack attack reaper ships. This only becomes avalaible to her once Joker unshackled her. More proof that TIM might have made sure the collectors kidnapped everyone so EDI could be unshackled.

[kraidy1117]

vallix wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

vallix wrote...
For us, keeping the base was a liability and we felt it'd do more than good I really don't see why that's so hard to understand.

Yes, I find it hard to understand how the base can be a liability if you're face with extinction anyway.

As has been said before, fighting fire with fire has never been a bright idea.

Deciphering an enemy's technology does not mean fighting fire with fire. It means having the knowledge to make better fire extinguishers.

Also, the Illusive Man is not to be trusted. Even if he claimed he'd only steal the knowledge and look for any type of weakpoint in the reapers he'd have something else going you wouldn't know about.

As I said, "TIM can't be trusted" is a strong argument. It's not enough for me, but it's certainly stronger than "inherent risks in acquiring a certain technology".

That's the entire point. Once TIM learns the technology, he'll use it. Just look at EDI. I would never have had EDI above my ship if it were up to me, even if she did later on prove useful in saving the Normandy 2. Not everyone has the same level of trust or eagerness as you do, we're paranoid and for good reason.

If you did't have EDI, you would not have made it off the Collector ship.

[vallix]

kraidy1117 wrote...



If you did't have EDI, you would not have made it off the Collector ship.

I know, but I didn't know that beforehand. I'm saying if at the beginning of the game when EDI was first introduced if it had been my decision I would've had her removed. This would of course most likely led to my doom but it would have been the decision I felt was right  at the time.

[fongiel24]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@fongiel:
People repeat again and again that EDI has incorporated parts of Nazara. Where does the game tell us that?

Otherwise, I agree with you (to no one's surprise, I'm sure).

I believe EDI says it after the Collectors kidnap the crew and her blocks are removed. I'm not entirely sure though, I'll have to check next time I get that far.

kraidy1117 wrote...

Again, we don't know. Thats the point,
you don't know the base could be helpful like I don't know the base
will bring destruction. We both don't know. Bioware can do anything.
Hell they could surprise us all and the the Reapers blow up the base.

I think our problem here is we're arguing different points. We (as in the gamer) can speculate on the usefulness and morality of the base. Shepherd (living in the game) does not know Bioware exists (although it would be hilarious if Bioware broke the fourth wall in ME3) and is guaranteeing a happy ending and does not have the luxury of pondering morality.

[Ieldra]

vallix wrote...
That's the entire point. Once TIM learns the technology, he'll use it. Just look at EDI. I would never have had EDI above my ship if it were up to me, even if she did later on prove useful in saving the Normandy 2. Not everyone has the same level of trust or eagerness as you do, we're paranoid and for good reason.

I believe in safeguards and in being careful, not in throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

EDI's just the point, you know: without her the Normandy SR2 would be in the hands of the Collectors. She had safeguards. Joker chose to remove them to save the ship. Well yes, it could have gone the other way. So, would you say what Joker did was wrong? Sometimes taking a risk doesn't seem so bad considering the alternatives. It's not about trust. It's about which kind of consquence you'd rather have: the certainty you'll lose the Normandy and maybe the war against the Collectors, vs. the risk of the ship being ruled by an AI "overlord".

And, just btw, I don't trust TIM in the least. But I'd take the risk of him knowing about Reaper technology against the risk of not having enough knowledge to defeat the Reapers. Because in the former scenario, humanity will still exist.

[vallix]

Ieldra2 wrote...

vallix wrote...
That's the entire point. Once TIM learns the technology, he'll use it. Just look at EDI. I would never have had EDI above my ship if it were up to me, even if she did later on prove useful in saving the Normandy 2. Not everyone has the same level of trust or eagerness as you do, we're paranoid and for good reason.

I believe in safeguards and in being careful, not in throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

EDI's just the point, you know: without her the Normandy SR2 would be in the hands of the Collectors. She had safeguards. Joker chose to remove them to save the ship. Well yes, it could have gone the other way. So, would you say what Joker did was wrong? Sometimes taking a risk doesn't seem so bad considering the alternatives. It's not about trust. It's about which kind of consquence you'd rather have: the certainty you'll lose the Normandy and maybe the war against the Collectors, vs. the risk of the ship being ruled by an AI "overlord".

And, just btw, I don't trust TIM in the least. But I'd take the risk of him knowing about Reaper technology against the risk of not having enough knowledge to defeat the Reapers. Because in the former scenario, humanity will still exist.

Now you're going against what you said earlier, My Shepard didn't know when I was first introduced to EDI that'd she'd be the key to saving the SR2. Just like my Shepard doesn't know that the collector base will be of any use or if it's worth risking. Fact of the matter is when I was presented with the decision to destroy or keep the collector base on my main Shepard, after careful consideration I felt it was more safe to remove the base altogether. I thought "I'll defeat the Reapers in my own way" and keeping the base wasn't apart of my "way," it completely went against what my Shepard was about.

Now, my female Shep believes TIM is the key to defeating the Reapers so she didn't destroy the base, but since we're arguing different opininos here I'll stick with the standpoint that keeping the Collector's base is wrong. And if someone has a problem with me not destroying the base based on intuition they can save the galaxy next time and decide how to handle things.

Modifié par vallix, 01 mai 2010 - 08:45 .

[Ieldra]

kraidy1117 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

@fongiel:
People repeat again and again that EDI has incorporated parts of Nazara. Where does the game tell us that?

Otherwise, I agree with you (to no one's surprise, I'm sure).

Talk to EDI after the Collectors kidnap your crew. She also reveals she canattack attack reaper ships. This only becomes avalaible to her once Joker unshackled her. More proof that TIM might have made sure the collectors kidnapped everyone so EDI could be unshackled.

??????
Now you're in serious conspiracy theory territory. Not that I think TIM wouldn't be capable of it, but he let EDI be built - so what need would he have for such an elaborate plan?

[fongiel24]

Ieldra2 wrote...

vallix wrote...
That's the entire point. Once TIM learns the technology, he'll use it. Just look at EDI. I would never have had EDI above my ship if it were up to me, even if she did later on prove useful in saving the Normandy 2. Not everyone has the same level of trust or eagerness as you do, we're paranoid and for good reason.

I believe in safeguards and in being careful, not in throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

EDI's just the point, you know: without her the Normandy SR2 would be in the hands of the Collectors. She had safeguards. Joker chose to remove them to save the ship. Well yes, it could have gone the other way. So, would you say what Joker did was wrong? Sometimes taking a risk doesn't seem so bad considering the alternatives. It's not about trust. It's about which kind of consquence you'd rather have: the certainty you'll lose the Normandy and maybe the war against the Collectors, vs. the risk of the ship being ruled by an AI "overlord".

And, just btw, I don't trust TIM in the least. But I'd take the risk of him knowing about Reaper technology against the risk of not having enough knowledge to defeat the Reapers. Because in the former scenario, humanity will still exist.

Weird how fast this thread moves when we're not talking about Miranda...

If TIM goes bad and builds himself a Reaper, in the whole scheme of things, who cares? The galaxy is already about to be invaded by what looks like thousands of Reapers. What difference does it make in such a scenario if TIM adds one more to the mix?

As horrific as it sounds, if TIM builds himself a small fleet of Cerberus-slaved Reapers and that proves to be what stops the actual Reaper invasion, then that was a good trade. A few hundred thousand sapients liquified instead of the entire galaxy? It's a terrible solution but one that is ultimately better than the alternative. Even if TIM then takes his Reaper fleet and enslaves the galaxy that's a better alternative than annihilation. At least sapient life survives in some form.

[kraidy1117]

Ieldra2 wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

@fongiel:
People repeat again and again that EDI has incorporated parts of Nazara. Where does the game tell us that?

Otherwise, I agree with you (to no one's surprise, I'm sure).

Talk to EDI after the Collectors kidnap your crew. She also reveals she canattack attack reaper ships. This only becomes avalaible to her once Joker unshackled her. More proof that TIM might have made sure the collectors kidnapped everyone so EDI could be unshackled.

??????
Now you're in serious conspiracy theory territory. Not that I think TIM wouldn't be capable of it, but he let EDI be built - so what need would he have for such an elaborate plan?

Why would TIM make these things for EDI only when she was unshackled? Also who in there right mind would unshackle an AI? Joker did it becauset he had no choice. It's poseable TIm could have been part of this. TIM is the type of villien that pulls the strings, he knows more then he lets on and he is the type of person who would do stuff like that.

[kraidy1117]

fongiel24 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

vallix wrote...
That's the entire point. Once TIM learns the technology, he'll use it. Just look at EDI. I would never have had EDI above my ship if it were up to me, even if she did later on prove useful in saving the Normandy 2. Not everyone has the same level of trust or eagerness as you do, we're paranoid and for good reason.

I believe in safeguards and in being careful, not in throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

EDI's just the point, you know: without her the Normandy SR2 would be in the hands of the Collectors. She had safeguards. Joker chose to remove them to save the ship. Well yes, it could have gone the other way. So, would you say what Joker did was wrong? Sometimes taking a risk doesn't seem so bad considering the alternatives. It's not about trust. It's about which kind of consquence you'd rather have: the certainty you'll lose the Normandy and maybe the war against the Collectors, vs. the risk of the ship being ruled by an AI "overlord".

And, just btw, I don't trust TIM in the least. But I'd take the risk of him knowing about Reaper technology against the risk of not having enough knowledge to defeat the Reapers. Because in the former scenario, humanity will still exist.

Weird how fast this thread moves when we're not talking about Miranda...

If TIM goes bad and builds himself a Reaper, in the whole scheme of things, who cares? The galaxy is already about to be invaded by what looks like thousands of Reapers. What difference does it make in such a scenario if TIM adds one more to the mix?

As horrific as it sounds, if TIM builds himself a small fleet of Cerberus-slaved Reapers and that proves to be what stops the actual Reaper invasion, then that was a good trade. A few hundred thousand sapients liquified instead of the entire galaxy? It's a terrible solution but one that is ultimately better than the alternative. Even if TIM then takes his Reaper fleet and enslaves the galaxy that's a better alternative than annihilation. At least sapient life survives in some form.

"I rather die then live as a slave" Right from Shepard. Death is better then being a slave.

Modifié par kraidy1117, 01 mai 2010 - 08:49 .

[fongiel24]

EDI was never intended to be unshackled. If she was, TIM could have just installed her unshackled. Why does he have to create some elaborate ruse to find a stooge (Joker) to unshackle her? The Normandy SR-2 is his ship and the crew are his employees. What's anybody going to do to stop him from installing an unshackled AI? Tell the Council? He's already considered a terrorist by everyone and is therefore accountable to no one.

Sure some of his financial backers may be unhappy with the decision, but to do anything about it they'd have to know he did it. Miranda makes it clear that Cerberus' financial backers pretty much just give TIM their money and trust him to make the right decisions.

[Ieldra]

vallix wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

vallix wrote...
That's the entire point. Once TIM learns the technology, he'll use it. Just look at EDI. I would never have had EDI above my ship if it were up to me, even if she did later on prove useful in saving the Normandy 2. Not everyone has the same level of trust or eagerness as you do, we're paranoid and for good reason.

I believe in safeguards and in being careful, not in throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

EDI's just the point, you know: without her the Normandy SR2 would be in the hands of the Collectors. She had safeguards. Joker chose to remove them to save the ship. Well yes, it could have gone the other way. So, would you say what Joker did was wrong? Sometimes taking a risk doesn't seem so bad considering the alternatives. It's not about trust. It's about which kind of consquence you'd rather have: the certainty you'll lose the Normandy and maybe the war against the Collectors, vs. the risk of the ship being ruled by an AI "overlord".

And, just btw, I don't trust TIM in the least. But I'd take the risk of him knowing about Reaper technology against the risk of not having enough knowledge to defeat the Reapers. Because in the former scenario, humanity will still exist.

Now you're going against what you said earlier, My Shepard didn't know when I was first introduced to EDI that'd she'd be the key to saving the SR2. Just like my Shepard doesn't know that the collector base will be of any use or if it's worth risking. Fact of the matter is when I was presented with the decision to destroy or keep the collector base on my main Shepard, after careful consideration I felt it was more safe to remove the base altogether. I thought "I'll defeat the Reapers in my own way" and keeping the base wasn't apart of my "way," it completely went against what my Shepard was about.

No I didn't (go againt what I said earlier). I said I believe in safeguards. Having EDI without safeguards from the start would have been to much of a risk. But knowing what an AI could do, not having one at all would be stepping back from "being prepared for all scenarios we can think about".
As in: we do not know that having the base will help us, but not having it at all may result in extinction. So examine it, decipher the technology, but use better safeguards than the last time. As I understand it, TIM was a bit overeager for results when he sent the science team into the derelict Reaper.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 01 mai 2010 - 08:56 .

[kraidy1117]

fongiel24 wrote...

EDI was never intended to be unshackled. If she was, TIM could have just installed her unshackled. Why does he have to create some elaborate ruse to find a stooge (Joker) to unshackle her? The Normandy SR-2 is his ship and the crew are his employees. What's anybody going to do to stop him from installing an unshackled AI? Tell the Council? He's already considered a terrorist by everyone and is therefore accountable to no one.

Sure some of his financial backers may be unhappy with the decision, but to do anything about it they'd have to know he did it. Miranda makes it clear that Cerberus' financial backers pretty much just give TIM their money and trust him to make the right decisions.

Then why was she given all these abilites once she was unshackled? No one trust AIs, even Joker was not happy with her being unshackled and miri was pissed at her being unshackled.

[fongiel24]

kraidy1117 wrote...

"I rather die then live as a slave" Right from Shepard. Death is better then being a slave.

For that one individual in that specific situation, yes, death may be better than slavery. But what right does that one individual then have to make that same decision for every sapient being in the galaxy? I'm sure a lot of people would rather live as slaves to TIM than be liquified into Reapers. For a lot of people life always > death. Slaves can free themselves, the dead can't resurrect themselves.

[Ieldra]

OK, I'll leave this subtopic since everything pertinent to the question has been said.

I'd rather sit down on the beach and watch Miranda now:

Modifié par Ieldra2, 01 mai 2010 - 08:59 .

[vallix]

Ieldra2 wrote...

No I didn't (go againt what I said earlier). I said I believe in safeguards. Having EDI without safeguards from the start would have been to much of a risk. But knowing what an AI could do, not having one at all would be stepping back from "being prepared for all scenarios we can think about".
As in: we do not know that having the base will help us, but not having it at all may result in extinction. So examine it, decipher the technology, but use better safeguards than the last time. As I understand it, TIM was a bit overeager for results when he sent the science team into the derelict Reaper.

I was referring to what you said earlier about your character not knowing from a roleplaying stand point. You started listning reasons why keeping EDI was a good idea, and I was simplying saying my Shepard didn't know she'd be so useful in saving the SR2.

And I understand your point, there's no reason to keep giving it to me in different forms. I was just seeing if you'd ever accept that destroying the base also had purpose but apparently that won't be happening(which is fine).

Modifié par vallix, 01 mai 2010 - 09:01 .

[kraidy1117]

fongiel24 wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...

"I rather die then live as a slave" Right from Shepard. Death is better then being a slave.

For that one individual in that specific situation, yes, death may be better than slavery. But what right does that one individual then have to make that same decision for every sapient being in the galaxy? I'm sure a lot of people would rather live as slaves to TIM than be liquified into Reapers. For a lot of people life always > death. Slaves can free themselves, the dead can't resurrect themselves.

What happens if I choose you to be liquified to make a Reaper? You would be happy that I deicided to destory the base then