43796 réponses à ce sujet

[epoch_]

and while I'm here

[MrNose]

Actually, and hear me out on this one, I think that the collector ship is really a matter of politics, rather than technology.



Taking the ship = A huge bargaining chip that you can use to elevate Cerberus and ensure that action is taken on the Reaper fleet.



- The downside is that you're handling extremely unpredictable technology. There's no evidence of new weapons systems here, what we've seen of the collector ship makes it look like it uses the same weapons as Sovereign. There's little evidence to show that this is the Reaper's kryptonite, and given their success as a race, I wold say little possibility of their being so.



Not taking the ship means that you're convinced that you can get the council to take action by yourself. You don't need Cerberus to use the leverage of the collector ship to gain power, you can fight the Reapers on your own terms.



- The downside of this is maybe you can't.



That's why I don't see Miri's actions as out of character. Surprising, but not out of character. She's confident that they can get that stuff done without comprimising humanity's value system.



But why would this be an ethical no-go for her? Well obviously because of what the ship did to humans, harvesting them into slurry and all... But more than that is what the tech would be used for.



Can anyone not think that the idea of creating a hyper-advanced human using Reaper genetic modification techniques might aggravate some of Miri's own emotional wounds a tad?



That's how I interpreted it based on my experiences with her anyway. She wants to get things done on her own, and she certainly doesn't want to use genetic modification techniques to do it.



It would have been useful if Miri had been more open about her motivations and if The Illusive Man had been less elusive about his.

[Ieldra]

MrNose wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Breakdown Boy wrote...
My Shep will kick the Reapers asses without their tech or Cerberus. Being Paragon Shep is doing things the right way, because of this I have more allies and have kept the soul of humanity intact (blew station to kingdom come)!

I'll take more allies. I'll take not trusting TIM one bit.
But what does the base have to do with this mysterious "soul of humanity". And what's that in the first place? Why the hell is destroying the base "the right thing"?

Because a radiation pulse would only affect the organic parts of the reaper ship, making it an extremely dangerous and unknown factor.

So, something dangerous and unknown is best destroyed? That seems to be the moral of the ME2 final decision. I don't buy it.

The harvesting technology is horrible, so from a pure ethics standpoint taking it is an unethical action.

No. From a pure ethics standpoint the act of taking it has no moral value - it's neither good or bad. What you do with it, that counts. And if you use it to develop better defenses against Reaper technology, thats actually very good. I think I could set up an argument where it's morally obligatory to keep the base. Not now, though, I've only got a few minutes.

There's no guarantee that the collector ship is at all useful, particularly with its tech wrapped up in the hands of a small subversive organization.   

There's never a guarantee for anything, neither good nor bad consequences. But if empirical evidence counts for anything, it's likely something useful will come of it. If we can afford to leave it all to TIM; now that's quite another question.

[Collider]

As if I could trust technology that can turn people into Reaper paste and indoctrinate people, with Cerberus.

[Caihn]

epoch_ wrote...

Yannkee wrote...

Hi!
It's very quiet here ..

I didn't know what to do today, so I made a new video.
Hope you'll like it.

That was absolutely epic.

Thank you.

It took me only two hours to make it. All scenes were in my mind before I started, but I was surprised how short the editing was.

Modifié par Yannkee, 01 mai 2010 - 07:05 .

[Strikor2115]

Awesome video Yannkee! what song did you use?



Also I know I have posted that Miranda picture with the wine glass I drew about a million times. But I think I have finally got it right. Would you you guys mind if I posted it for the final time?

[Caihn]

Strikor2115 wrote...

Awesome video Yannkee! what song did you use?

Two Steps From Hell - Smell Of Victory

Also I know I have posted that Miranda picture with the wine glass I drew about a million times. But I think I have finally got it right. Would you you guys mind if I posted it for the final time?

Too few Miranda art here. I think you can.

[Ieldra]

Strikor2115 wrote...
Also I know I have posted that Miranda picture with the wine glass I drew about a million times. But I think I have finally got it right. Would you you guys mind if I posted it for the final time?

Please do post it!

[MrNose]

[quote]Ieldra2 wrote...
No. From a pure ethics standpoint the act of taking it has no moral value - it's neither good or bad. What you do with it, that counts. And if you use it to develop better defenses against Reaper technology, thats actually very good. I think I could set up an argument where it's morally obligatory to keep the base. Not now, though, I've only got a few minutes.
[/quote]
From a pure ethics standpoint EVERY action has a moral value, full stop, because no action takes place in a vacuum.  Maybe you're referring to ethics from a pragmatic standpoint, but from a purely ethical standpoint, taking that technology is unethical because that technology represents human slurry.  That's why Miri said taking it "seems like a betrayal."  

Are pure ethics the be-all and end-all?  No of course not.  There are a billion other considerations to factor in, such as the pragmatic considerations of the technology.  The small ethical violation which comes from taking such technology is easily overshadowed by the value of the collector ship if it saves the galaxy.  Nonetheless, it's still an ethical violation. 

[quote]Ieldra2 wrote...

Because a radiation pulse would only
affect the organic parts of the reaper ship, making it an extremely
dangerous and unknown factor.[/quote]
So, something dangerous and
unknown is best destroyed? That seems to be the moral of the ME2 final
decision. I don't buy it.
[/quote]
If something could destroy the
galaxy it's best destroyed, yes.  I view the
collector ship as that dangerous.

[quote]Ieldra2 wrote...
There's never a guarantee for anything, neither good nor bad consequences. But if empirical evidence counts for anything, it's likely something useful will come of it. If we can afford to leave it all to TIM; now that's quite another question.
[/quote]
If empirical evidence counts for anything?  Well last time Shepard grabbed a peice of Reaper technology his crew got taken from him, and that was a measly IFF.  This is a full freaking mothership.  All empirical evidence says that going close to any Reaper with a modicum of functionality ends very, very badly. 

Further, if the technology on that single ship is enough to defeat the Reapers, it's enough for TIM to seize control of the Alliance at best and the council at worst.  My Shepard would rather not end Mass Effect 3 with an autocratic government in place.  My Shepard is going to solve things without crushing the galaxy under humanity's bootheel.

This isn't being melodramatic either.  I've yet to take the ship, but when you face TIM after blowing it up, he signals that using the ship to make Cerberus the galaxy's dominant player is his goal.  Not acceptable.

[Strikor2115]

ok here it is. Please tell me if you feel anyhting needs improvment

[fongiel24]

Strikor2115 wrote...

ok here it is. Please tell me if you feel anyhting needs improvment

The labial line above the left side of her mouth is a bit high.

MrNose wrote...

Further, if the technology on that single
ship is enough to defeat the Reapers, it's enough for TIM to seize
control of the Alliance at best and the council at worst.  My Shepard
would rather not end Mass Effect 3 with an autocratic government in
place.  My Shepard is going to solve things without crushing the galaxy
under humanity's bootheel.

This isn't being melodramatic either. 
I've yet to take the ship, but when you face TIM after blowing it up,
he signals that using the ship to make Cerberus the galaxy's dominant
player is his goal.  Not acceptable.

At the end of ME2, nobody really knows anything about the Reapers. What if the technology from that Collector station is that single factor that tips the balance for the galaxy against the Reapers? How does Shepherd know it's even possible to defeat the Reapers without the base?

An autocratic government under TIM and Cerberus would be terrible, but given a choice between an authoritarian dictatorship under TIM and the annihilation of all sapient life in the galaxy by the Reapers, wouldn't authoritarianism be preferable? After all, TIM, like all authoritarian governments, can be eventually overthrown. A galaxy harvested of all life can't regenerate itself.

[TheSixthghoul]

fongiel24 wrote...

Strikor2115 wrote...

ok here it is. Please tell me if you feel anyhting needs improvment

The labial line above the left side of her mouth is a bit high.

MrNose wrote...

Further, if the technology on that single
ship is enough to defeat the Reapers, it's enough for TIM to seize
control of the Alliance at best and the council at worst.  My Shepard
would rather not end Mass Effect 3 with an autocratic government in
place.  My Shepard is going to solve things without crushing the galaxy
under humanity's bootheel.

This isn't being melodramatic either. 
I've yet to take the ship, but when you face TIM after blowing it up,
he signals that using the ship to make Cerberus the galaxy's dominant
player is his goal.  Not acceptable.

At the end of ME2, nobody really knows anything about the Reapers. What if the technology from that Collector station is that single factor that tips the balance for the galaxy against the Reapers? How does Shepherd know it's even possible to defeat the Reapers without the base?

An autocratic government under TIM and Cerberus would be terrible, but given a choice between an authoritarian dictatorship under TIM and the annihilation of all sapient life in the galaxy by the Reapers, wouldn't authoritarianism be preferable? After all, TIM, like all authoritarian governments, can be eventually overthrown. A galaxy harvested of all life can't regenerate itself.

 I have found two examples of why keeping the base is a good ideawww.youtube.com/watch and this www.youtube.com/watch and one of way destorying it is a bad idea www.youtube.com/watch . They came from fallout tactics.

[jtav]

I'll say this for Yvonne: she does an excellent job on her lines if you side with Jack and try to talk to her later. You can tell Miranda despises you now. I'm finally getting that ice queen vibe from her. Of course, now I want to send Kyle Shepard to fix everything. Actually, what I really want to do is finish the game so I can get started on my fic. Will try to come up with a suitable endearment for her. Siha actually fits this version of Miranda because she thinks of herself as protecting humanity and the galaxy, even if she'd prefer people like Oriana remain ignorant of her sacrifices. But this isn't the game romance with a few lines changed, so it looks like I get to invent some drell mythology.

[Ieldra]

Strikor2115 wrote...

ok here it is. Please tell me if you feel anyhting needs improvment

I see you fixed the head position. And her mouth is a bit less open. The higher head also makes the hair look more natural. All in all quite an improvement over the last one. I like it.

More improvements? Hmm...it's already very good, but if you're aiming for perfection: it seems she grips the glass rather hard, I'd expect her to have a more elegant grip, more with her fingers instead of the whole hand. The body of the glass would have to rest higher in the hand and mainly be held between her thumb and index finger, with the other fingers for support.

[Strikor2115]

Ieldra2 wrote...
I see you fixed the head position. And her mouth is a bit less open. The higher head also makes the hair look more natural. All in all quite an improvement over the last one. I like it.

More improvements? Hmm...it's already very good, but if you're aiming for perfection: it seems she grips the glass rather hard, I'd expect her to have a more elegant grip, more with her fingers instead of the whole hand. The body of the glass would have to rest higher in the hand and mainly be held between her thumb and index finger, with the other fingers for support.

Thats a great suggestion, however, I am afraid I cannot do this with the programs I use. I don't have photoshop or anything I just use a free photoediting site called Picnik to do all my coloring and edits. Thanks though for the compliments and help.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
I'll say this for Yvonne: she does an excellent job on her lines if you side with Jack and try to talk to her later. You can tell Miranda despises you now. I'm finally getting that ice queen vibe from her. Of course, now I want to send Kyle Shepard to fix everything.

Brrr. I never sided with anyone in this conflict, and if, I'd have sided with Miranda. Don't like Jack much in spite of some empathy, but it's good MIranda has an opponent, even if she isn't quite on her level.
BTW, I'm getting confused with your Shepards. Kyle is...which one?

Actually, what I really want to do is finish the game so I can get started on my fic. Will try to come up with a suitable endearment for her. Siha actually fits this version of Miranda because she thinks of herself as protecting humanity and the galaxy, even if she'd prefer people like Oriana remain ignorant of her sacrifices. But this isn't the game romance with a few lines changed, so it looks like I get to invent some drell mythology.

You're still going to write that Miranda/Thane piece? I admit to some curiosity since I never play any non-human romance. Perhaps I should make an exception - he does sound interesting.

[Ieldra]

Strikor2115 wrote...
Thats a great suggestion, however, I am afraid I cannot do this with the programs I use. I don't have photoshop or anything I just use a free photoediting site called Picnik to do all my coloring and edits. Thanks though for the compliments and help.

No problem. I like it as it is. As I do all of your Miranda fan art, btw. 

[jtav]

Kyle is..the nice one. Spacer/Sole Survivor. Will romance only Miranda throughout the trilogy, My "canon" Shep. But I needed to hear some of the dialogue where you are unpleasant to Miranda, so why not make hating her a character trait for this FemShep?

And yes, I'm still planning on doing the Miranda/Thane, realism of xenophilia be damned. There's a possibility it could implode like the Morinth story did, but I hope not. They've got just enough in common to intrigue me, and Mordin's going to have a big part too. Thane's romance is the best of the three. Shep doesn't sound desperate.

[jtav]

I do seem to have an easier time being cruel to Miranda than most here. The only time I have trouble is while writing. I'll even get around to romancing Tali instead eventually. Refuse to romance Jacob and Jack.

[fongiel24]

jtav wrote...

I do seem to have an easier time being cruel to Miranda than most here. The only time I have trouble is while writing. I'll even get around to romancing Tali instead eventually. Refuse to romance Jacob and Jack.

I find writing forces me into a character's head, thus significantly lessening the emotional distance. That lesser distance makes it difficult for authors to hurt written characters they genuinely like.

Jacob as presented in the game lacks an interesting history. I think romancing Jacob would require inventing some sort of interesting background or character quirk. Default Jacob can be summed up in two word: Who cares?

Jack could be an interesting character to explore. A lot of damage there and damage always introduces a ton of possibilities for character/relationship development. A platonic relationship makes more sense than a romantic relationship here though. Jack has the emotional maturity of a twelve-year-old. Romancing her would likely remain only a physical relationship, devolve into a relationship based on manipulation, or eventually completely fall apart violently.

[jtav]

It absolutely does force you to get into their heads. Hardly anything I do in game bothers me because I'm not Shep and I'm just following along the path set out for me. Writing them gives me a more intimate view of these characters because I have to decide how they think and feel about what's happening to them. Everything bad that happens to Miranda in one of my stories happens because I wanted it to and for no other reason. I'm not really being cruel to her this time (no surprise war crimes) but I'd hardly call what I'm planning sunshine and butterflies either. Miranda starts very emotionally isolated in a way that's not healthy. No Shep, no Oriana, no Niket. She falls in love with someone terminal and she has to decide whether giving her heart broken is worth it.



Jacobs history is plenty interesting. They just hardly mention it. He suffers from being a low-rent Shep in a game where Shep is the star. My issues with Jack are complex and really beyond the scope of this thread.

[jtav]

This isn't really a "problem" for me in this thread but does anyone else think that we sometimes conflate our love for a character with our love for their romance a bit too much? There are some characters I like but have no desire to romance, and so I don't feel particularly welcome in the thread. I wonder if there are many people out there who love Miranda but have no desire to pair her with Shepard? Like I said, it's not a particular problem for me. Though I do appreciate gives you humoring me as I attempt to get her together with Thane.

[fongiel24]

Jacob's history has potential. I just don't find the way it's currently presented to be very interesting. As it is, Jacob is just another kid with daddy issues who enlisted in the military due to a combination of idealism and wanting to show dad he could make something of himself. It's something that I think a good writer could develop but for whatever reason, ME2's writers chose not to.



The idea of a Thane/Miranda romance sounds interesting. One thing I'd be interesting in seeing is how Miranda's perfectionist control freak side might interact with Thane's illness. Would she convince herself she could cure him? That somehow, maybe through her own efforts, Thane's illness won't be terminal? After all, she resurrected a dead man and hasn't failed at many things she's put her mind to in the past. Why would Thane be any different? I wonder how she would feel if she tried to cure him but then realized she couldn't.

[jtav]

fongiel, have you been reading my outline? That's exactly where the story goes, with a side trip into Mordin helping because he still feels some guilt over the genophage. I really wanted to do something with Miranda as genius scientist. As you said, she rose someone from the dead. Curing Kepral's Syndrome should be easy. Should. Add in her fear of getting her heart broken, and you have a very potent combination.

[fongiel24]

jtav wrote...

fongiel, have you been reading my outline? That's exactly where the story goes, with a side trip into Mordin helping because he still feels some guilt over the genophage. I really wanted to do something with Miranda as genius scientist. As you said, she rose someone from the dead. Curing Kepral's Syndrome should be easy. Should. Add in her fear of getting her heart broken, and you have a very potent combination.

Nope. Just a mindreader . I was wondering how you'd bring Mordin in. I haven't seen a lot of stories that use Mordin as anything but a bystander. Sounds like you're really going for the unconventional. Miranda/Thane wouldn't normally hold much appeal for me, but you've got an interesting premise. I'd like to see where you go with it.