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[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
That used to happen with jtav, back when we were talking about details of Miranda's personality. But since talk has shifted more to her role in the story and she's started to post some of her weirder ideas, things have gotten more balanced.

What? Honestly, you say you like the idea you like her with the alien and people think you've lost it

Or is this about the Miranda-as-villain thing? I don't think she would make a good villain now. But if we weren't stuck with H.P. Lovecraft in space, I would have preferred her or an antagonist like her. The Reapers are so alien that I don't really care about them and wish they'd go away so I could concentrate on the plots I care about.

With "more balanced", I mean that I now disagree with you about as often as I agree, while then I agreed with you almost all the time. And yes, there is a pattern. We both like Miranda for more or less the same personallity traits, so that's where we agree about whether she has them, to which degree she has them etc.. But her role in the story, there we tend to disagree quite a bit, starting with the "redemption" theme you mentioned somewhere on page 60 or so.

And yes, I still dislike interspecies romance, but can still appreciate what you want to do with that Miranda/Thane story, even if only in the abstract.

Edit:
And Miranda is a sexually experienced woman, but she does not take her relationships lightly. I guess we agree on that....

Modifié par Ieldra2, 06 mai 2010 - 02:30 .

[ComTrav]

jtav wrote...

Or is this about the Miranda-as-villain thing? I don't think she would make a good villain now. But if we weren't stuck with H.P. Lovecraft in space, I would have preferred her or an antagonist like her. The Reapers are so alien that I don't really care about them and wish they'd go away so I could concentrate on the plots I care about.

I see your point about needing a relatable antagonist, and I agree that Miranda would make an excellent "enemy ace" type--she's at least as capable as Shepard, and she has motivations that are not so easy to judge.

However, I like the alien, un-knowable threat. A lot of the aliens in ME, even the Geth, are just too easily understood by me. Part of why I liked the encoutner with Samara is that the Asari are totally willing to accept that she might need to kill a bunch of cops and the Asari are totally fine with it; Shepard doesn't get it, and neither do I, but neither of us are supposed to because it's Asari culture and logic, not human culture. Similiairly, one of my favorite parts of ME1 is when you ask Soveriegn why he's doing what he's doing and he basically responds that you're a speck of dust and it's not worth his time to explain himself to you (not like you'd get it, anyway.)

But ME3 probably will give us our big pay-off on the origin and purpose of the Reapers, and hopefully we'll get a "personal" baddie, too. Illusive Man comes close, and the Collector General has a few moments (unfortunately, all his "you know me, Shepard" and "this hurts you" amounts to not very much.)

[Sleepy Buddha]

Hey, people.



Ieldra, are you going to post that information you're collecting somewhere? It would be cool to have a resource of all Miranda related discussions on this thread without the extra OT and (shall we say) "colorful" discussions.

[ComTrav]

Colorful?





Whatever do you mean? ; )

[Sleepy Buddha]

LOL. Good one, Com.



By the way, who's now in charge of the thread? Haven't seen Darth since I came back yesterday.



And now you, the old boss, is back.

[jtav]

Ieldra2 wrote...

jtav wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
That used to happen with jtav, back when we were talking about details of Miranda's personality. But since talk has shifted more to her role in the story and she's started to post some of her weirder ideas, things have gotten more balanced.

What? Honestly, you say you like the idea you like her with the alien and people think you've lost it

Or is this about the Miranda-as-villain thing? I don't think she would make a good villain now. But if we weren't stuck with H.P. Lovecraft in space, I would have preferred her or an antagonist like her. The Reapers are so alien that I don't really care about them and wish they'd go away so I could concentrate on the plots I care about.

With "more balanced", I mean that I now disagree with you about as often as I agree, while then I agreed with you almost all the time. And yes, there is a pattern. We both like Miranda for more or less the same personallity traits, so that's where we agree about whether she has them, to which degree she has them etc.. But her role in the story, there we tend to disagree quite a bit, starting with the "redemption" theme you mentioned somewhere on page 60 or so.

And yes, I still dislike interspecies romance, but can still appreciate what you want to do with that Miranda/Thane story, even if only in the abstract.

Edit:
And Miranda is a sexually experienced woman, but she does not take her relationships lightly. I guess we agree on that....

Even if we disagree on the details.

I think my views on her are colored by view of Cerberus as irredeemable in its current form, though it could be transformed into something better. She's defending a terrorist organizattion that wiped out an entire human colony. You can only have so many rogue cells before I can't suspend my disbelief. It makes sense for her character but that and the control chip mark her as a dark grey anti-hero for me. It's probably telling that I always destroy the base when I romance her. I need that resignation scene to conclude her arc.

[Ieldra]

ComTrav wrote...

jtav wrote...

Or is this about the Miranda-as-villain thing? I don't think she would make a good villain now. But if we weren't stuck with H.P. Lovecraft in space, I would have preferred her or an antagonist like her. The Reapers are so alien that I don't really care about them and wish they'd go away so I could concentrate on the plots I care about.

I see your point about needing a relatable antagonist, and I agree that Miranda would make an excellent "enemy ace" type--she's at least as capable as Shepard, and she has motivations that are not so easy to judge.

However, I like the alien, un-knowable threat. A lot of the aliens in ME, even the Geth, are just too easily understood by me. Part of why I liked the encoutner with Samara is that the Asari are totally willing to accept that she might need to kill a bunch of cops and the Asari are totally fine with it; Shepard doesn't get it, and neither do I, but neither of us are supposed to because it's Asari culture and logic, not human culture. Similiairly, one of my favorite parts of ME1 is when you ask Soveriegn why he's doing what he's doing and he basically responds that you're a speck of dust and it's not worth his time to explain himself to you (not like you'd get it, anyway.)

But ME3 probably will give us our big pay-off on the origin and purpose of the Reapers, and hopefully we'll get a "personal" baddie, too. Illusive Man comes close, and the Collector General has a few moments (unfortunately, all his "you know me, Shepard" and "this hurts you" amounts to not very much.)

I like the concept of the Reapers of something like unfathomable antagonistic techno-gods quite a bit.

What I do not like, in fact what I really hate with a passion, is that Cthulhu-esque aura of corruption surrounding their tech, as if it wasn't just machines but some collection of unholy evil contraptions. We're not in the Star Wars universe with its black-and-white morality, for gods' sake. We're supposed to be in a believable SF universe.

So, what does jtav mean when she says we're stuck with H.P.Lovecraft in space? The former, or the latter? Because the former, you can still relate to in some way.

[Valmy]

jtav wrote...

The "Miranda is a virgin" thing REALLY bothers me, as does the opposite "Miranda is a ****." I've gone on at length elsewhere, but both send me into rant mode.

Wasn't that just an un-PC afterlife joke by Comtrav?  Pretty sure  nobody thinks it is likely Miranda is a 35 year old virgin.

[Andysilv]

Valmy wrote...

jtav wrote...

The "Miranda is a virgin" thing REALLY bothers me, as does the opposite "Miranda is a ****." I've gone on at length elsewhere, but both send me into rant mode.

Wasn't that just an un-PC afterlife joke by Comtrav?  Pretty sure  nobody thinks it is likely Miranda is a 35 year old virgin.

Some people definitely thought it was a possibility, IIRC. I think Rathias was one of the people who suggested there was a chance of it. I could be wrong though, it was a long time ago.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
I think my views on her are colored by view of Cerberus as irredeemable in its current form, though it could be transformed into something better. She's defending a terrorist organizattion that wiped out an entire human colony. You can only have so many rogue cells before I can't suspend my disbelief. It makes sense for her character but that and the control chip mark her as a dark grey anti-hero for me. It's probably telling that I always destroy the base when I romance her. I need that resignation scene to conclude her arc.

I find her reasoning to destroy the base completely out of character. I would have expected her reaction more akin to Legion's:
Shepard-Commander, this facility is  data. It has no inherent ethical value. Destroying it will not return those lost. Keeping it may save others.

If she had actually said "I'd not trust the Illusive Man with it any more. Destroy it". That would have marked her change of loyalty and increasing doubt over Cerberus' methods more believably, and then, yes, I'd have had a very good reason to believe her and indeed destroy the base. But she doesn't strike me as a woman who would be concerned with the ethics of divinity, which is what the talk of betrayal, the soul of the species, the taint of Reaper tech etc. refers to.

As it is, I have a problem with that scene. I see keeping the base almost as a moral obligation under the duty of doing everything possible to preserve the human species and other intelligent life in the galaxy, and that concern overrules any other consideration. I have two Shepards who destroy the base, but it doesn't feel right. I'm constantly tempted to replay the final battle and change the decision.

I think Miranda would agree with my reasons had not Bioware introduced what I consider a character-breaking change.

BTW: "Ethics of divinity" refers to one of three distinct moral domains cultural psychologists have identified in human communities. Look for articles by Richard A. Shweder et al. for details. I'll come back with a proper reference later if you're interested.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 06 mai 2010 - 03:56 .

[Valmy]

andysilv87 wrote...
Some people definitely thought it was a possibility, IIRC. I think Rathias was one of the people who suggested there was a chance of it. I could be wrong though, it was a long time ago.

Gender double standard here.  A male virgin at 35 would judged a total loser and it would be unheard of.  Unless somebody has a vow of celibacy pretty sure by 35 everybody knows their way around.  I could be wrong about that but I have yet to meet somebody who was a 35 year old virgin much less a beautiful person.

[Valmy]

Ieldra2 wrote...
As it is, I have a problem with that scene. I see keeping the base almost as a moral obligation under the duty of doing everything possible to preserve the human species and other intelligent life in the galaxy, and that concern overrules any other consideration. I have two Shepards who destroy the base, but it doesn't feel right. I'm constantly tempted to replay the final battle and change the decision.

The obligation to keep the species of the galaxy from being controlled and turned into what they did to the Protheans is just, if not more, vital than preservation.  The base would enslave us no question about it.  There are some considerations besides mere survival, once you go down that road you turn into Saren.

Just my view of the situation.

[jtav]

Both, actually. I think I would have preferred either a smaller scale conflict that permitted a more personal feel (Planescape: Torment or even BG2 -- I wanted to kill Irenicus for what he did to me and Imoen long before I discovered his actual plan) or some other hook besides "all life in the galaxy will be wiped out." I can't care about a galaxy. I can care about the quarian/geth conflict or the genophage because I can wrap my brain around that and because they matter to characters I care about.

[Valmy]

jtav wrote...

Both, actually. I think I would have preferred either a smaller scale conflict that permitted a more personal feel (Planescape: Torment or even BG2 -- I wanted to kill Irenicus for what he did to me and Imoen long before I discovered his actual plan) or some other hook besides "all life in the galaxy will be wiped out." I can't care about a galaxy. I can care about the quarian/geth conflict or the genophage because I can wrap my brain around that and because they matter to characters I care about.

Yeah I think Bioware keeps making their plots a little too huge, neither the Darkspawn nor the Reapers are villains worthy of hatred like Irenicus or The Transcendant One was.  Actually PS:T was a little unique in the plot being entirely personal and had nothing to do with saving anything...but then it took place in a realm where thoughts change reality and immortal Gods are hanging out on every street corner.

Fighting things that are so alien as to be forces of nature is sorta compelling but a true bad guy is better IMO.

[Valmy]

Ieldra2 wrote...
I find her reasoning to destroy the base completely out of character.

Reasoning?  I gathered her instincts and gut feeling told her it was a really bad idea.  She isn't completely robotic, I mean logically she should not have done all that song and dance with her sister either.

[Ieldra]

Valmy wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
As it is, I have a problem with that scene. I see keeping the base almost as a moral obligation under the duty of doing everything possible to preserve the human species and other intelligent life in the galaxy, and that concern overrules any other consideration. I have two Shepards who destroy the base, but it doesn't feel right. I'm constantly tempted to replay the final battle and change the decision.

The obligation to keep the species of the galaxy from being controlled and turned into what they did to the Protheans is just, if not more, vital than preservation.  The base would enslave us no question about it.  There are some considerations besides mere survival, once you go down that road you turn into Saren.

Just my view of the situation.

You say: The base would enslave us no question about it.

That's exactly what I do question. If it's technology and not some unholy evil, then it can be understood. If it can be understood, it can be countered. If we can find a counter to other effects of Reaper technology through analysis, then it's our duty to do so.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 06 mai 2010 - 04:00 .

[Ieldra]

Valmy wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
I find her reasoning to destroy the base completely out of character.

Reasoning?  I gathered her instincts and gut feeling told her it was a really bad idea.  She isn't completely robotic, I mean logically she should not have done all that song and dance with her sister either.

I believe a gut feeling and instinct that amounts to disgust and a feeling of being tainted is unreasonable. I don't trust such feelings one bit. As a rule. It's a result of cheap horror effects Bioware chose to present us with in order to evoke exactly this feeling. Not with me, Bioware.

[Valmy]

Ieldra2 wrote...
You say: The base would enslave us no question about it.

That's exactly what I do question. If it's technology and not some unholy evil, then it can be understood. If it can be understood, it can be countered. If we can find a counter to other effects of Reaper technology through analysis, then it's our duty to do so.

We have the technical data from the base, including data from the reapers themselves (though granted I didn't know we were going to get this information when I destroyed the thing, thanks Mr. Prothean leader).  But it seems pretty evident to me that a base that enslaved a species and liquidated mine to build reapers is probably something incredibly dangerous to anybody who hangs around in there.  The very fact Miranda sensed this instinctively just reinforces my view.

My duty is to protect the galaxy, Reaper Tech is a poisoned chalice and that has been proven in literally 100% of the case so far.

Modifié par Valmy, 06 mai 2010 - 04:05 .

[Valmy]

Ieldra2 wrote...
I believe a gut feeling and instinct that amounts to disgust and a feeling of being tainted is unreasonable. I don't trust such feelings one bit. As a rule. It's a result of cheap horror effects Bioware chose to present us with in order to evoke exactly this feeling. Not with me, Bioware.

Where there is smoke there is fire.

But then my Shep generally acts out of emotion and intuition and gut feelings rather than logic and careful calculations.  Every mission is personal and I go in with more determination than anything else.  So it would have been very OOC for him to save the base. 

We will see who is right in ME3 eh?

Modifié par Valmy, 06 mai 2010 - 04:08 .

[jtav]

Valmy, I've heard her being a virgin argued. And the guy wouldn't be a "loser." He could have a number of reasons Religious/moral convictions against premarital sex, asexuality inability to find someone he wants to have sex with and who wants to have sex with him, severe disability that makes the normal dating process difficult or impossible, etc. The last one happens to apply to me, so I resent the implication that the guy would be a loser, double standard or no.



None of which would apply to Miranda

[ComTrav]

I have to admit, I found the Big Moral Choice at the end underwhelming. I think of dilemmas like these as the Bazooka-that-uses-babies-for-ammo; it's potentially really useful, but also probably really evil.

The Shepard that romanced Miranda destroyed the base; he's one of those if-we-compromise-who-we-are-we've-already-lost kind of people, and using the machinery of humanity's genocide is definitely Not OK.

(Although, in a similar dilemma, my Dwarf noble in DAO could not bring himself to destroy the Anvil of the Void, dwarvenkind's greatest achievement and the sole hope for returning them to greatness.)

Modifié par ComTrav, 06 mai 2010 - 04:13 .

[Nightwriter]

Valmy wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...
And that's a good interpretation, I respect that. I guess that, for me personally, I didn't feel any overwhelming buildup of tension - tension buildup happens for me during the pre-sex dialogue. Does that make sense?

The last conversations were supposed to supply that.  I guess it would have worked out for you better if that conversation had happened right before the sex scene instead, that would probably be better pacing.  I said that earlier in the thread actually, that it just felt silly to reach the point of intimacy and then wait until the last mission.

So there was pre-sex dialog just not immediately pre-sex.  What I do not see is how this magically means it was all about sex and fling-y when that directly contradicts everything said in the romance.  Still waiting for some actual evidence for that claim.

I don't want you to feel like just because you like Miranda and this romance, you have to defend the sex scene to me. You don't. This romance is actually my favorite. I hate adopting a defense/attack position to these discussions, especially when I'm in this thread.

I can't be the only one who's wondered whether the romance was just physical - you've heard that before. A lot of people say it seemed like a fling, especially in the other LI threads, and it bothers me.

You've got the "Who said anything about love? I just want to get you into bed" comment. As the upper-right paragon option. You've got the only sex scene that has no dialogue. You've got the engine room. You've got the "maybe I wouldn't mind you admiring my body" line - stuff like that. The wink in the elevator and the "I've cleared out the engine room" thing was cute and coy, but again it focuses only on sex.

A sex scene should be a sum-up of everything that's led up to that moment, it should address the emotion of everything that's passed between them. Talking - even brief talking - sets the stage for that and builds up the tension for the final moment. I missed that in Miranda's scene. It's okay if you disagree. I don't pretend everyone's going to feel the same way I do.

[Valmy]

jtav wrote...

He could have a number of reasons Religious/moral convictions against premarital sex, asexuality inability to find someone he wants to have sex with and who wants to have sex with him, severe disability that makes the normal dating process difficult or impossible, etc.

Men like that are played for laughs in movies like '40-year-old virgin' and other works of fiction.  Besides I said 'unless they take a vow of celibacy or something' by which I meant to mean the very extenuating circumstances you just listed.  If that is a consideration than it no longer applies.  But none of those apply to Miranda or a hypothetical male version of her.

[bas273]

I just finished Mass Effect: Galaxy... and I was shocked when I saw the final cutscene. Miranda was flirting with Jacob??!
I prefer the Miranda from ME2 and the Jacob from ME: Galaxy, that might sound a bit strange but I don't think I'm the only one with that opinion .

[jtav]

I wanted more talking too. I keep saying this, but the scene would have been so much better if the "promise me" scene had immediately preceded it