43796 réponses à ce sujet

[Andysilv]

jtav wrote...

I don't particularly care for her outfits, though I vastly prefer her loyalty one. *prepares to be mobbed*

I like them, but I'm still holding out for some light armour. You know, that wine red one with the black trim? I've never mentioned it before, honest. :innocent:

[Valmy]

jtav wrote...

I'd still rather have proper armor. *grumbles*

Yep.  That silly mouth breather...

[SpiderFan1217]

andysilv87 wrote...

jtav wrote...

I don't particularly care for her outfits, though I vastly prefer her loyalty one. *prepares to be mobbed*

I like them, but I'm still holding out for some light armour. You know, that wine red one with the black trim? I've never mentioned it before, honest. :innocent:

*Crosses fingers for Miranda armor in next DLC* 

[Valmy]

jtav wrote...

I don't particularly care for her outfits, though I vastly prefer her loyalty one. *prepares to be mobbed*

Yvonne Strahovski liked it

Skin tight outfits are what everybody wears in Mass Effect, so that never bothered me.  I just wish wish she had had different clothes for being out on missions like Shep and the ME1 people did.

[Jebel Krong]

the only loyalty "outfits" i don't like as much are legion's and Kasumi's (although that is the only one where the material is significantly different, which makes it a complete contrast, though i still like the colour-scheme). Miranda's Loyalty outfit is much better than the normal one, imo, but she looks gorgeous in either.

[Valmy]

I always stick people in their loyalty outfits. It makes it so easy to tell who I still need to do the loyalty missions for.

[DarkSeraphym]

Jebel Krong wrote...

DarkSeraphym wrote...

Though, I think most of us can agree a Renegade Shepard will have more affinity towards the goals of Cerberus by the end of the game while a Paragon Shepard will be more inclined towards the goals of the Alliance.

absolutely not. renegade shepard is about doing things expediently and *your* way, not necessarily by the book. that does not mean any coincidence with the views or goals of Cerberus, which is why the ending of me2 fails so badly - transposing that into a forced 'moral' choice pro-one or the other, which the game had carefully avoided till then.

I'm not quite sure I see how that is a bad thing given how, in real-life anyways, your actions have repercussions for that and if my actions were not having repercussions upon the whole galaxy, Mass Effect would be rather dull.

Besides, while I can agree with you that it is very possible to be Renegade and pro-cooperation and Paragon with pro-dominance, that is a very hard concept to impliment into a video game with only so much data available in the game. The game does have signs of one idea tending to stick into the other, though you are not forced to pick that idea by any means. However, certain points are rewarded for one solution as opposed to another. Take Renegade for example:

1. Extinction of the Rachni - Shepard mentions that the Rachni are too dangerous to keep alive and then gets scolded by the Council for committing genocide.
2. Keeping the Genophage in place.
3. Destruction of the Geth as opposed to rewiring them. (If you are Renegade, you are also able to mention that the Geth are nothing more than machines and thus it doesn't matter if you destroy them.)
4. Destruction of the Council - If you choose the Renegade option to Udina's response that you now are in a position of power as humanity, the Renegade option is more or less Shepard saying "That is why I did it".
5. Ability to execute the politician in Thane's Loyalty mission as the Renegade option with the answer of more or less "He was a racist and had to be shot." (Kind of ironic really)
6. Shepard's speech to the Asari couple on the Citadel about how "if you want a solution to a problem, ask a human" when they confront him about "fixing" the council. (The Renegade Option)

I am not saying you are wrong. All of these options are merely about perspective and in reality, I only have so much evidence for my perspective. There are not many examples of Shepard going out and wiping out an entire human colony, but the absence of evidence does not make for the evidence of absence. At the sametime, however, BioWare seems to be putting more pro-dominance ideas into the Renegade section than it does the Paragon cycle. On the other hand, if Renegade Shepard is about doing things expediently, not doing things by the book, and what seems like a trigger-happy "shoot now ask questions later" approach; wouldn't it make sense that a Renegade Shepard would find it easier to dominate something as opposed to trying to use diplomacy to find another solution?

I'm not trying to overgeneralize and say one concept or another seems to fit one idea or another more. I must have worded what I said poorly or something. What I am trying to say is that there is evidence from the game that a Renegade Shepard (which I will define as a 'true' or 'pure' Renegade Shepard) seems to side with the idea of human dominance far more than he does about the needs of the aliens short of the fact that the Reapers plan to destroy all organic life.

Modifié par DarkSeraphym, 07 mai 2010 - 03:15 .

[Valmy]

Jebel Krong wrote...

DarkSeraphym wrote...

Though, I think most of us can agree a Renegade Shepard will have more affinity towards the goals of Cerberus by the end of the game while a Paragon Shepard will be more inclined towards the goals of the Alliance.

absolutely not. renegade shepard is about doing things expediently and *your* way, not necessarily by the book. that does not mean any coincidence with the views or goals of Cerberus, which is why the ending of me2 fails so badly - transposing that into a forced 'moral' choice pro-one or the other, which the game had carefully avoided till then.

Um...huh?  From the very beginning of the series the Renegade had a very humanity first goal to it.  The Renegade choice at the end of ME1 had you making humanity the rulers of Citadel space.  If the ending of ME2 failed so badly because of the choice than the whole series does because that has been consistent throughout.

[TheSixthghoul]

How about a skin tight latex Lara Croft type a outfit?

[Jebel Krong]

Valmy wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...

DarkSeraphym wrote...

Though, I think most of us can agree a Renegade Shepard will have more affinity towards the goals of Cerberus by the end of the game while a Paragon Shepard will be more inclined towards the goals of the Alliance.

absolutely not. renegade shepard is about doing things expediently and *your* way, not necessarily by the book. that does not mean any coincidence with the views or goals of Cerberus, which is why the ending of me2 fails so badly - transposing that into a forced 'moral' choice pro-one or the other, which the game had carefully avoided till then.

Um...huh?  From the very beginning of the series the Renegade had a very humanity first goal to it.  The Renegade choice at the end of ME1 had you making humanity the rulers of Citadel space.  If the ending of ME2 failed so badly because of the choice than the whole series does because that has been consistent throughout.

one of the choices yes, but that was mainly a byproduct of limiting damage to the alliance fleets and letting the council die... again the expedient choice.

Modifié par Jebel Krong, 07 mai 2010 - 03:20 .

[DarkSeraphym]

Jebel Krong wrote...

Valmy wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...

DarkSeraphym wrote...

Though, I think most of us can agree a Renegade Shepard will have more affinity towards the goals of Cerberus by the end of the game while a Paragon Shepard will be more inclined towards the goals of the Alliance.

absolutely not. renegade shepard is about doing things expediently and *your* way, not necessarily by the book. that does not mean any coincidence with the views or goals of Cerberus, which is why the ending of me2 fails so badly - transposing that into a forced 'moral' choice pro-one or the other, which the game had carefully avoided till then.

Um...huh?  From the very beginning of the series the Renegade had a very humanity first goal to it.  The Renegade choice at the end of ME1 had you making humanity the rulers of Citadel space.  If the ending of ME2 failed so badly because of the choice than the whole series does because that has been consistent throughout.

one of the choices yes, but that was mainly a byproduct of limiting damage to the alliance fleets and letting the council die... again the expedient choice.

Partially. Shepard's response is what determines that. As I said, the Renegade response to after they are destroyed is to respond to "That is why I did it." when Udina mentions the opportunity for humans to seize power. Likewise, I don't recall there being an option that says "No Udina, we need to establish a new Council with all species." Either you flat out respond "That is why I did it." or Shepard will ask if that is even possible and Udina will do it anyways. That is only what I recall though, there is a possiblity there is error in my memory.

Modifié par DarkSeraphym, 07 mai 2010 - 03:24 .

[Valmy]

Jebel Krong wrote...
one of the choices yes, but that was mainly a byproduct of limiting damage to the alliance fleets and letting the council die... again the expedient choice.

Letting 10,000 Asari die and the largest ship in the galaxy die to save a far fewer number of Alliance soldiers.  Humans > Aliens.  Also you could easily have asked a new multi-race council be elected even then, but renegade choice has an entirely human council be created.  Humanity first.  Just like supporting the Terra Firma party and other choices were renegade choices.

Now does that mean you HAVE to always take the humanity first option when playing renegade?  No.  You can still be full renegade without taking EVERY renegade choice.  But every humanity first option is a renegade option.

Modifié par Valmy, 07 mai 2010 - 03:41 .

[DarkSeraphym]

Valmy wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...
one of the choices yes, but that was mainly a byproduct of limiting damage to the alliance fleets and letting the council die... again the expedient choice.

Letting 10,000 Asari die and the largest ship in the galaxy die to save a far fewer number of Alliance soldiers.  Humans > Aliens.  Also you could easily have asked a new multi-race council be elected even then, but renegade choice has an entirely human council be created.  Humanity first.  Just like supporting the Terra Firma party and other choices were renegade choices.

Now does that mean you HAVE to always take the humanity first option when playing renegade?  No.  You can still be full renegade without taking EVERY renegade choice.  But every humanity first option is a renegade option.

Exactly. You don't have to take the humanity first option everytime you play a Renegade character. However a pure Renegade Shepard in his truest form seems to be a Ruthless, Earthborn commander with a knack for doing things at all costs, completely done off the book, and with a "I want a solution now" approach to all dilemmas. Likewise that same Renegade Shepard seems to be a racist and always considers the needs of humans first before considering the needs of alien species.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
I don't particularly care for her outfits, though I vastly prefer her loyalty one. *prepares to be mobbed*

I hate to disappoint you, but....I also prefer the loyalty outfit. And I do like that one a lot, as opposed to the white one.

[fongiel24]

DarkSeraphym wrote...

Valmy wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...
one of the choices yes, but that was mainly a byproduct of limiting damage to the alliance fleets and letting the council die... again the expedient choice.

Letting 10,000 Asari die and the largest ship in the galaxy die to save a far fewer number of Alliance soldiers.  Humans > Aliens.  Also you could easily have asked a new multi-race council be elected even then, but renegade choice has an entirely human council be created.  Humanity first.  Just like supporting the Terra Firma party and other choices were renegade choices.

Now does that mean you HAVE to always take the humanity first option when playing renegade?  No.  You can still be full renegade without taking EVERY renegade choice.  But every humanity first option is a renegade option.

Exactly. You don't have to take the humanity first option everytime you play a Renegade character. However a pure Renegade Shepard in his truest form seems to be a Ruthless, Earthborn commander with a knack for doing things at all costs, completely done off the book, and with a "I want a solution now" approach to all dilemmas. Likewise that same Renegade Shepard seems to be a racist and always considers the needs of humans first before considering the needs of alien species.

That's an interesting discussion you guys are having. I never thought about the Renegade decisions that way. I noticed that a lot of the Renegade decisions could be construed as pro-human, but I always wrote that off as coincidence (the Renegade path is the most expedient path and that usually comes across as pro-human in ME1/ME2). It never really occurred to me that Shepard himself might actually hold some of those racist, pro-human views like groups such as Terra-Firma and Cerberus but looking at ME2 again, I guess it does make sense.

Regarding your earlier post Seraphym, I just want to say I completely agree with you. Ashley was my first LI too and at the time I really liked her character. But compared to Miranda, she's not nearly as good of a match for Shepard, even a Paragon Shepard. Her morality is too rigid and black and white. Even then, her morality seems more tightly tied up with her loyalty to the Alliance as an institution, rather than her loyalty to the Alliance as an ideal.

Contrasting Miranda with Ashley, Miranda is a lot more like Shepard. Miranda's loyalty to Cerberus is based on her sense of idealism. She believes in its goals and that is why she works for them. If Shepard chooses to destroy the Collector base, she quits Cerberus because she believes Cerberus' methods of achieving its goals are no longer in line with her particular ideals. I guess what I'm saying is Miranda's motivations are complex and three-dimensional while Ashley's are a lot more "flat". That tends to make Miranda a far more flexible character and a better match with Shepard, who I feel is also somewhat of an idealist.

[jtav]

I don't even remember who my first ME LI was. I think it was Kaidan. Just did the romances to do them. Miranda was the first character in the series to really make an impression on me. Grabbed my brain and hasn't let go.

[DarkSeraphym]

fongiel24 wrote...

DarkSeraphym wrote...

Valmy wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...
one of the choices yes, but that was mainly a byproduct of limiting damage to the alliance fleets and letting the council die... again the expedient choice.

Letting 10,000 Asari die and the largest ship in the galaxy die to save a far fewer number of Alliance soldiers.  Humans > Aliens.  Also you could easily have asked a new multi-race council be elected even then, but renegade choice has an entirely human council be created.  Humanity first.  Just like supporting the Terra Firma party and other choices were renegade choices.

Now does that mean you HAVE to always take the humanity first option when playing renegade?  No.  You can still be full renegade without taking EVERY renegade choice.  But every humanity first option is a renegade option.

Exactly. You don't have to take the humanity first option everytime you play a Renegade character. However a pure Renegade Shepard in his truest form seems to be a Ruthless, Earthborn commander with a knack for doing things at all costs, completely done off the book, and with a "I want a solution now" approach to all dilemmas. Likewise that same Renegade Shepard seems to be a racist and always considers the needs of humans first before considering the needs of alien species.

That's an interesting discussion you guys are having. I never thought about the Renegade decisions that way. I noticed that a lot of the Renegade decisions could be construed as pro-human, but I always wrote that off as coincidence (the Renegade path is the most expedient path and that usually comes across as pro-human in ME1/ME2). It never really occurred to me that Shepard himself might actually hold some of those racist, pro-human views like groups such as Terra-Firma and Cerberus but looking at ME2 again, I guess it does make sense.

Regarding your earlier post Seraphym, I just want to say I completely agree with you. Ashley was my first LI too and at the time I really liked her character. But compared to Miranda, she's not nearly as good of a match for Shepard, even a Paragon Shepard. Her morality is too rigid and black and white. Even then, her morality seems more tightly tied up with her loyalty to the Alliance as an institution, rather than her loyalty to the Alliance as an ideal.

Contrasting Miranda with Ashley, Miranda is a lot more like Shepard. Miranda's loyalty to Cerberus is based on her sense of idealism. She believes in its goals and that is why she works for them. If Shepard chooses to destroy the Collector base, she quits Cerberus because she believes Cerberus' methods of achieving its goals are no longer in line with her particular ideals. I guess what I'm saying is Miranda's motivations are complex and three-dimensional while Ashley's are a lot more "flat". That tends to make Miranda a far more flexible character and a better match with Shepard, who I feel is also somewhat of an idealist.

Shepard is designed as a rather complex character (has to be, otherwise it would be rather hard to decide what side he should be on) but I like to think from some of the evidence in the game that he has some form of racist ideals if taken in the pure Renegade fashion. Personally, I would find it rather hard not to given how the Council treated his recommendation for Spectre status and basically how they treated him once he had it. Really, it seems like the Mass Effect universe is teaming with all sorts of racism and its no surprise to me that the ReneShep should have some degree of it himself.

As for Miranda, in all honesty Miranda could also be construed that way. When you sit down with her and talk about some of the more evil experiences Shepard has had with Cerberus, she more or less puts the blame on that one unit and seems dodgy about the subject by effectively giving you what I see as a politician's answer. She does seem to blindly follow Cerberus at times. That doesn't make her a bad character by any means, it just makes a flawed character and just about every character in ME is a flawed character. Miranda appears to be idealistic merely because she thinks that the Illusive Man's intentions are always for the greater good.

Commander Shepard does appear to be some form of idealist, but I don't think as much if you are a ReneShep. If you are a ParaShepard then I think it becomes the most obvious, I mean ParaShep seems to ignore the realistic dilemma and constantly be searching for another solution all of the time. ParaShep allowed the Rachni Queen to go instead of ending the problem right there, rewired the Geth instead of finishing off the heretics right there, supports the ending of the Genophage out of a belief that the Krogan will not be so bad anymore, and effectively goes out of his way to make sure that none of the Zhu's Hope colonists die by using grenades to keep the Thorian from controlling them. All of these concepts seem to best identify with idealism.

ReneShep doesn't put blind faith in Cerberus the way that Miranda does and even suspects many times throughout ME2 that the Illusive Man is not nearly as noble as he wants to sound.I think the best way to sum up ReneShep is a pragmatist. He seems to always analyze the situation from a realistic, matter-of-fact perspective and as such is willing to do whatever it takes to complete the mission. He knows that war comes with casualities, its a risk of the job. I do think that Miranda and Shepard are the most compatible of all of the pairings, but I also think they have their differences in the fact that Miranda appears to be completely loyal to whoever shares her ideals (on top of the fact that Cerberus was the only one willing to protect her and her sister Oriana from her father) while ReneShep maintains only a certain degree of loyalty at any time.

Modifié par DarkSeraphym, 07 mai 2010 - 05:51 .

[Caihn]

Ieldra2 wrote...

jtav wrote...
I don't particularly care for her outfits, though I vastly prefer her loyalty one. *prepares to be mobbed*

I hate to disappoint you, but....I also prefer the loyalty outfit. And I do like that one a lot, as opposed to the white one.

Shepard agrees.



I wonder why Bioware chose only the white one for the engine room scene.

Modifié par Yannkee, 07 mai 2010 - 05:47 .

[fongiel24]

DarkSeraphym wrote...

Shepard is designed as a rather complex character (has to be, otherwise it would be rather hard to decide what side he should be on) but I like to think from some of the evidence in the game that he has some form of racist ideals if taken in the pure Renegade fashion. Personally, I would find it rather hard not to given how the Council treated his recommendation for Spectre status and basically how they treated him once he had it. Really, it seems like the Mass Effect universe is teaming with all sorts of racism and its no surprise to me that the ReneShep should have some degree of it himself.

As for Miranda, in all honesty Miranda could also be construed that way. When you sit down with her and talk about some of the more evil experiences Shepard has had with Cerberus, she more or less puts the blame on that one unit and seems dodgy about the subject by effectively giving you what I see as a politician's answer. She does seem to blindly follow Cerberus at times. That doesn't make her a bad character by any means, it just makes a flawed character and just about every character in ME is a flawed character. Miranda appears to be idealistic merely because she thinks that the Illusive Man's intentions are always for the greater good.

Commander Shepard does appear to be some form of idealist, but I don't think as much if you are a ReneShep. If you are a ParaShepard then I think it becomes the most obvious, I mean ParaShep seems to ignore the realistic dilemma and constantly be searching for another solution all of the time. ParaShep allowed the Rachni Queen to go instead of ending the problem right there, rewired the Geth instead of finishing off the heretics right there, supports the ending of the Genophage out of a belief that the Krogan will not be so bad anymore, and effectively goes out of his way to make sure that none of the Zhu's Hope colonists die by using grenades to keep the Thorian from controlling them. All of these concepts seem to best identify with idealism.

ReneShep doesn't put blind faith in Cerberus the way that Miranda does
and even suspects many times throughout ME2 that the Illusive Man is not
nearly as noble as he wants to sound.I think the best way to sum up ReneShep is a pragmatist. He seems to always analyze the situation from a realistic, matter-of-fact perspective and as such is willing to do whatever it takes to complete the mission. He knows that war comes with casualities, its a risk of the job. I do think that Miranda and Shepard are the most compatible of all of the pairings, but I also think they have their differences in the fact that Miranda appears to be completely loyal to whoever shares her ideals (on top of the fact that Cerberus was the only one willing to protect her and her sister Oriana from her father) while ReneShep maintains only a certain degree of loyalty at any time.

RenegadeShep is an idealist, but a very different idealist from ParagonShep. The difference is that the ideal RenegadeShep aspires to is to protect the human race at all costs (whether that gets twisted into more racist human dominance ideas is up to the player). He will always take the most expedient path because for him, the ends always justifies the means. He distrusts the Illusive Man not because of Cerberus' reputation, but because he doesn't trust him not to lose sight of the ultimate goal (protect humanity from the greatest threat in the universe) by becoming distracted by lesser objectives (machinations to put humanity on top of the current political order). I'm not sure nobility means all that much to RenegadeShep as he tends to be too jaded to see it as anything other than an inconvenience.
As for RenegadeShep being capable of only maintaining a limited degree of loyalty, I like to think that's a function of his absolute dedication to his ultimate mission of safeguarding humanity rather than any kind of reflection on the type of person he is.

[Ieldra]

Hmm. Deadly quiet here. I'll be off soon, but let's try to bring a little life in....

[jtav]

I can't look at that picture at that picture without thinking of Black Widow. You guys make Chuck comparisons. I make Marvel Comics comparisons.



*heads back to work on that story, if you can call the digital equivalent of crumpling paper and tossing it in the waste basket working*

[TheSixthghoul]

Hey, who would like to see a more post human Shepard if you choose the renegade end choice?

[jtav]

I come bearing a fanfic rec. Miranda/Jacob. Fantastic Miranda/Jacob no less.

Veteran of the Psychic Wars Written for the masskink prompt 'They're still sleeping with each other and they're both convinced that it's just for the sex when it's really not.'

Read it. Miranda And Jacob are very well-done here.

[kraidy1117]

Yannkee wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

jtav wrote...
I don't particularly care for her outfits, though I vastly prefer her loyalty one. *prepares to be mobbed*

I hate to disappoint you, but....I also prefer the loyalty outfit. And I do like that one a lot, as opposed to the white one.

Shepard agrees.



I wonder why Bioware chose only the white one for the engine room scene.

All characters wear there default outfit in there romance scene (expect for Garrus since he wears a suit)

[jtav]

Hello?



I'm beginning to think I must be strange. Not sure I want Thane cured, speculating on Miranda as a villain, and actively wanting Liara to be an antagonist. Maybe it's better when I don't like characters.



So, what are Miranda's petty vices/guilty pleasures?