43796 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

Valmy wrote...

Markinator_123 wrote...

I would hate for Shepard to die for this rotten galaxy. First time he died and people basically ****** on his grave who is the say people would not do it again. Besides, why do people want an heroic sacrifice anyway? Shepard deserves a happy ending more than anybody not to die again for some unappreciative galaxy.

I guess my Shep doesn't judge the worth of the galaxy solely based on how much it loves him personally.

No, but my main Shepard definitely judges Citadel civilization by the collective intelligence it expresses. And that's not always a hopeful picture.

[Valmy]

Ieldra2 wrote...
In no particular order of importance:
(1) Make Miranda nothing more but Shepard's satellite. Play down her personality, independence and competence. This does not apply as strongly to other characers because Miranda is defined by these traits more than the other LIs.
(2) Play down the importance of the romance, as suggested by naming the relevant achievement "paramour". Grrr...Miranda is not a fling, she's Shepard's only real love, the one who is almost as if made for him...
(3) Remove her moral ambiguity.
(4) Reduce her role in general. Fob players off with a little cameo similar to the way ME1 LIs were treated on Horizon. This also applies to all other LIs. ME3 is the final part of the story, the LI you have selected as "yours" should play a significant role.

OK, I do hope, and I think I have reason to hope, that none of these will happen.

(1) This comes up alot and frankly I find it as plausible a scenario as Miranda turning into an elephant and sprouting wings and orbiting the moon in ME3.  She cannot become some sort of Shep fashion accessory simply because she will not even be an LI for most Sheps out there so ergo she must have another reason for being in the game.  I can understand this a little bit based on some previous love interests in fiction history but it really puzzles me that it keeps coming up right after they specifically did NOT do this in ME2.  It seems they should get credit for this and there needn't  be the continued hand wringing.  But yeah it would be really dissapointing if they did that.

(2) Yep.  After ME2 and Awakenings I almost get the feel Bioware is trying to make their games into James Bond scenarios where you basically dump you old LIs.  They need to have them continue across series, the fans are just not interested in having passionate love affairs get hand waved.

(3) Um...she was horrified by the Jack experiments and left Cerberus rather than let them take the Collector Base.  Didn't this sorta already happen?

(4) For me totally depends on how it is handled.  A cameo could work.

I think #2 is the main one for me.  Just pretending the whole thing didn't exist and moving us on to new and exciting LIs!  Come on now.  We love your games because we love your characters Bioware.

Modifié par Valmy, 19 mai 2010 - 02:47 .

[Valmy]

Ieldra2 wrote...
No, but my main Shepard definitely judges Citadel civilization by the collective intelligence it expresses. And that's not always a hopeful picture.

Eh who would believe something as ridiculous as what Shep keeps saying?

[Valmy]

Besides the main reason love interests tend to get sidelined once the relationship has become established is simply because that plot has been resolved and now the plot has moved on to something else and there are limits in story telling. That does not really apply to a video game where the character is going to be relied upon as a party member.

[jtav]

I don't think Miranda has lost her moral ambiguity. She remains practical to the point of coldness, nor does she apologize for her more ruthless actions.



And, er, sorry Ieldra. I seem to have lapsed back into my "what horrible thing can I conceive for Miranda today?" mode. Maybe it would be better if I did hate her.

[Valmy]

jtav wrote...

I don't think Miranda has lost her moral ambiguity. She remains practical to the point of coldness, nor does she apologize for her more ruthless actions.

But only because her ruthless actions serve the greater good...and besides leaving the peeps on the base during the Lazarus project, which even goody goody Jacob approves of, we do not really see her doing any ruthless actions.

[jtav]

See, I don't think doing things for the greater good removes her ambiguity. It's more what she's willing to do than what she does:



1. wanted to implant Shep with a control chip

2. advocates leaving the crew to die so you can prepare for the suicide mission. She's right, but she's awfully cold about it.

[Valmy]

jtav wrote...

See, I don't think doing things for the greater good removes her ambiguity. It's more what she's willing to do than what she does:

1. wanted to implant Shep with a control chip
2. advocates leaving the crew to die so you can prepare for the suicide mission. She's right, but she's awfully cold about it.

Fair enough.  Yeah a Miranda eager to go 'hell or highwater' would be totally OOC.  If that is what you are getting at then yeah.

[Ieldra]

Valmy wrote...
Besides the main reason love interests tend to get sidelined once the relationship has become established is simply because that plot has been resolved and now the plot has moved on to something else and there are limits in story telling. That does not really apply to a video game where the character is going to be relied upon as a party member.

Exactly. The story content and being a party member goes hand in hand. In a game, you won't get much of the former without the latter. That's why I consider my point (4) of what should not be done with Miranda of paramount importance.

[jtav]

And I find myself once again arguing for Miranda to be a LI for both genders. It would be kind of nice for the beautiful, desirable "leading lady" of the game to have been lesbian or bisexual, just because games aren't exactly drowning in positive portrayals of either. And she's human, so no nonsense about her not counting because she's an alien.



And, purely selfishly, I prefer playing femShep.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
And I find myself once again arguing for Miranda to be a LI for both genders. It would be kind of nice for the beautiful, desirable "leading lady" of the game to have been lesbian or bisexual, just because games aren't exactly drowning in positive portrayals of either. And she's human, so no nonsense about her not counting because she's an alien.

You do have DAO. I think Leliana is portrayed positively enough. I agree with you, but I think it never had a chance, simply because the ME player demographic is perceived as being more conservative (possibly correctly so).

And, purely selfishly, I prefer playing femShep.

As do I. But I make an exception for Miranda.

[jtav]

You're probably right about the conservatism. It just would have been nice. The "asari are asexual" nonsense seems to have set me on the warpath. I can write Miranda as bisexual all I like, but it's definitely not the same. Reminds me, I need to finish my Leliana romance game.



We seem to be willing to make a lot of exceptions for Miranda, don't we?

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
The "asari are asexual" nonsense seems to have set me on the warpath.

It's a cheap cop-out for political reasons. All this verbal wriggling around what everyone can see, the sheer dishonesty makes me sick, much more than the simple fact that not more characters are available for same-sex relationships.

We seem to be willing to make a lot of exceptions for Miranda, don't we?

Indeed. It seems that happens if you're a fan of a video game character. I must admit it's a first for me. And that after 25 years of playing such games. But there is no one like Miranda Lawson. That's the simple fact.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 19 mai 2010 - 05:16 .

[fongiel24]

I can see Miranda being lesbian or bisexual but at this point, it seems a bit late for them to retcon her sexual orientation for ME3. I would rather they just leave her alone at this point. A sexual orientation change is a pretty big shift for an established character and I'd rather Bioware not get in the habit of altering its characters like that retroactively.

[Ieldra]

fongiel24 wrote...

I can see Miranda being lesbian or bisexual but at this point, it seems a bit late for them to retcon her sexual orientation for ME3. I would rather they just leave her alone at this point. A sexual orientation change is a pretty big shift for an established character and I'd rather Bioware not get in the habit of altering its characters like that retroactively.

You might have noticed that jtav said "it would have been nice" instead of "it would be nice", and I said "It never had a chance" instead of "it doesn't have a chance". I can't speak for jtav, but I am aware that retconning her sexual orientation at this point is undesirable. It was just an observation, not a promotion for ME3.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 19 mai 2010 - 05:19 .

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Valmy wrote...

Fair enough.  Yeah a Miranda eager to go 'hell or highwater' would be totally OOC.  If that is what you are getting at then yeah.

 
It was Jack's (my shep) gameplan, but then again he had always set out to lose some people, so the mission was coming first as well as saving the cerberus crew.

[fongiel24]

@ Ieldra - Eh, there's no need to get touchy about it. I'm just extremely wary of retconning characters. My comments weren't intended as a rebuttal or criticism of yours or jtav's. IMO Liara's character underwent some major changes between ME1 and ME2 so something similar happening to ME2 characters would not be completely without precedent.

Modifié par fongiel24, 19 mai 2010 - 05:30 .

[Ieldra]

Valmy wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
No, but my main Shepard definitely judges Citadel civilization by the collective intelligence it expresses. And that's not always a hopeful picture.

Eh who would believe something as ridiculous as what Shep keeps saying?

I'm not talking about the Reapers. More about what Aethyta complains about, the unwillingness to explore new things, the decision to stay blind to the true face of the universe out of complacency. Maybe it's not really about intelligence, but Citadel civilization seems to have lost its drive, its will to power. Maybe it's indoctrination, but if it is not, one might question if it's worth saving.

And to stay somewhat on topic:



Nice looking at Miranda. I have just spent another half hour to create a new maleShep face from my ME1 Shepard who had an ugly chin. After all, Miranda only settles for the best, and she deserves that I put some effort into my Shepards' appearance. If only there were more hairstyles. The only one I really like is bald. Hair just looks like plastic in the ME games.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 19 mai 2010 - 05:34 .

[Ieldra]

fongiel24 wrote...
@ Ieldra - Eh, there's no need to get touchy about it. I'm just extremely wary of retconning characters. My comments weren't intended as a rebuttal or criticism of yours or jtav's. IMO Liara's character underwent some major changes between ME1 and ME2 so something similar happening to ME2 characters would not be completely without precedent.

May have phrased my reply in a wrong way. I wasn't offended. Sorry.

[Valmy]

jtav wrote...

just because games aren't exactly drowning in positive portrayals of either.

Bioware games are...which is why the absence is odd in Mass Effect and regrettable.

If there is a positive that she isn't bisexual or lesbian (well ok her being a Lesbian would enormously suck from my selfish perspective but that is another issue) just because the abuse and the perv factor would be even greater than it already is.

Modifié par Valmy, 19 mai 2010 - 05:46 .

[TheSixthghoul]

People don't seem to get it, Bioware does not want people to play as female Shepard. There is a lot of evidences to make such a case. Fact one, female animation they used the same male animation, regardless of what some my believe about Shepard being a "soldier" they could have originated her walk,instead of rehashing maleshep walk. Fact two, they use the same dialogue in the same manner. In fact three in some way or another the love interests for female Shepard suck. It's a huge problem if your character isn't into aliens and plays paragon. What do get if your playing a female a fish that's dying, a black-hole of personality,A turian with a human fetish who's fluids could kill you, an a l2 with a shortened lifespan who has "moved on". I rest my case.

[Valmy]

Sixth Goul wrote...

People don't seem to get it, Bioware does not want people to play as female Shepard. There is a lot of evidences to make such a case. Fact one, female animation they used the same male animation, regardless of what some my believe about Shepard being a "soldier" they could have originated her walk,instead of rehashing maleshep walk. Fact two, they use the same dialogue in the same manner. In fact three in some way or another the love interests for female Shepard suck. It's a huge problem if your character isn't into aliens and plays paragon. What do get if your playing a female a fish that's dying, a black-hole of personality,A turian with a human fetish who's fluids could kill you, an a l2 with a shortened lifespan who has "moved on". I rest my case.

That is why I am sticking with Kaidan for my girl.   Nice guy who looks like an underwear model.

BTW everything that applies to Garrus as far as fluids are concerned also applies to Quarians as they are chemically similar....poor Tali.

Modifié par Valmy, 19 mai 2010 - 05:59 .

[jtav]

It's a cheap cop-out for political reasons. All this verbal
wriggling around what everyone can see, the sheer dishonesty makes me
sick, much more than the simple fact that not more characters are
available for same-sex relationships.

QFT. If there simply were no same-sex options, I probably wouldn't think much of it. But the sheer unmitiagated gall of trying to pretend femShep/Liara is not a lesbian relationship is infuriating. Combine that with the negative portrayal of homosexuality/bisexuality in ME2, and I start wanting to throw things.

As for Miranda, it's not a retcon of her orientation per se that would be problematic for me (a writer could make her bisexual without contradicting a syllable of her backstory). But suddenly showing an interest in femShep specifically? That would need some explaining. So, for the purpose of ME3, I don't think it would work. Fiction? I like reading and writing it very much. Very much. If we got a "Miranda Lawson: Agent of Cerberus" backstory comic and it was revealed she'd had lovers of both sexes, I wouldn't bat an eye.

But then, I'm a bit odd when it comes to Miranda pairings.

[Valmy]

jtav wrote...
QFT. If there simply were no same-sex options, I probably wouldn't think much of it. But the sheer unmitiagated gall of trying to pretend femShep/Liara is not a lesbian relationship is infuriating. Combine that with the negative portrayal of homosexuality/bisexuality in ME2, and I start wanting to throw things.

Woah what negative portrayal?  It seems a bit unfair to start attacking Bioware as homophobic anyway since they have been pioneers in this as far as video games are concerned....

As for Miranda, it's not a retcon of her orientation per se that would be problematic for me (a writer could make her bisexual without contradicting a syllable of her backstory). But suddenly showing an interest in femShep specifically? That would need some explaining. So, for the purpose of ME3, I don't think it would work. Fiction? I like reading and writing it very much. Very much. If we got a "Miranda Lawson: Agent of Cerberus" backstory comic and it was revealed she'd had lovers of both sexes, I wouldn't bat an eye.

But then, I'm a bit odd when it comes to Miranda pairings.

Um...they could just do what they did with Tali and pretend it was always there but some personality quirk of Miranda, like focussing on the mission, kept her from expressing it or whatever.

[jtav]

I'm not accusing them of homophobia. Their record is too good. But this specific game bugs me. Kelly sleeps with anything that moves. Morinth is a serial rapist/muderer, Samara has sworn off sex. Nef is dead. And none of the "gay options" are treated as a romance like Liara was in ME.



As for Miranda, they could say she was hiding it, but I'd have a very hard time thinking of a reason why she would. She doesn't seem the type to nurse unrequited love for long.