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Warming to Miranda (Support Thread) 2.0


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#42426
Ieldra

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@Jebel Krong:
Here's my reasoning for Miranda's background:
(1) In ME:Galaxy, she's introduced as a well-traveled character with a big network of contacts. She acts as Jacob's handler or informant.
(2) She's an operative of Cerberus, which started as an Alliance black-ops agency according to Admiral Kahoku in ME1, and it's still unclear if the ties were ever completely severed.
(3) She envies Mordin's time in the STG. Clearly, she has some professional appreciation of the STG.
(4) She has combat experience and the physical attributes needed for combat.
(5) She's good enough at hacking that she's been able to put spy programs in her father's systems that went undetected for an unspecified but long time.
(6) She's good at the assessment of people. She herself says that, and it's confirmed by her role as project lead and the fact she can manage her contact network successfully. Occasional failures notwithstanding.

Facts like these (I think I could find a few more) firmly establish her primary character template as one associated with the spy trade. "Black-ops agent" is an appropriate term considering Cerberus' operational framework.

If you compare her with Mordin, who is an STG operative and also has both combat experience and scientific expertise, you notice there is a lot of similarity but one interesting difference: Mordin is a scientist/commando, with a similar problem-oriented mindset and combat experience, but apparently without the extensive contact network Miranda has. This puts her again, closer to the spy trade in comparison.

In fact, there is little in her background that points to her scientific expertise being her primary asset. Undoubtedly she has it, or she wouldn't have been able to lead the Lazarus cell, but Wilson was the primary scientific expert there, while Miranda has a stronger grasp of the bigger picture. Within the Lazarus project, I see her role in information and resources management. "Her" scientists, when they ran into a problem, would come to her to say "We know what we want to do, but don't know exactly how" or "We need some material with these attributes", and Miranda would know where to get the information and resources, and if necessary, other experts. She'd also have a different view on detail problems and may have been able to answer a few problems because of her wider range of information.

What both her roles share, the agent/operative and the project lead, is an ability to integrate information and deal with people on an individual, problem-oriented basis. Combined with her enhanced physical abilities, this makes her the perfect "superspy", as jtav has put it.

@Nightwriter:
I hope I have not "pigeonholed" her talents in this post, for this was not my intention.

@Jestina:
Try to establish a case for Miranda being nothing but a "brainwashed Cerberus cheerleader" by stating facts, please. From a certain viewpoint, and if you don't pay attention to how she says things, you might get hat impression. But I, and most of us here, maintain that picture is one-sided and ignores important personality aspects.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 27 mai 2010 - 10:11 .


#42427
VampireCommando

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I'm back now then guys, anything intreasting to know while i was away?

what we all talking about then as there seems to be alot of very long posts.

#42428
VampireCommando

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Ieldra2 wrote...

VampireCommando wrote...

Auzden wrote...
my all time favorite Miranda scene was when u kiss her in her room. i was like SCORE!!!!


Posted Image When and how does this happen???

Uh...you don't know the kiss scene? That must be remedied fast. Here's how you get there:

In the second conversation after her loyalty mission, you get to talk about Miranda's being genetically engineered with Shepard saying something like "You always bring that up". There's one option where you can say "You're jealous?". Take that option. Shortly after, the red Renegade option "[Kiss her]" comes up.

You can look up how it goes in gutty47's Miranda dialogue tree. It's conversation 3, Renegade path.


Thanks Ieldra, i'll make sure i never miss this one again Posted Image

#42429
Ieldra

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I only wish I could say "You give your father too much credit. Yeah, he gave you gifts, but you can be proud of what you've done with them." at some time in the romance and still get the kiss scene. Because that's what I always want to say to her when she brings up her genetic tailoring. The "You're jealous" path is good, except that it prevents me from saying that.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 27 mai 2010 - 11:33 .


#42430
Caihn

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Ieldra2 wrote...

I only wish I could say "You give your father too much credit. Yeah, he gave you gifts, but you can be proud of what you've done with them." at some time in the romance and still get the kiss scene. Because that's what I always want to say to her when she brings up her genetic tailoring. The "You're jealous" path is good, except that it prevents me from saying that.


Me too. It's so hard to choose between the two paths.

#42431
VampireCommando

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Ieldra2 wrote...

I only wish I could say "You give your father too much credit. Yeah, he gave you gifts, but you can be proud of what you've done with them." at some time in the romance and still get the kiss scene. Because that's what I always want to say to her when she brings up her genetic tailoring. The "You're jealous" path is good, except that it prevents me from saying that.



Yeah i think being able to say that and then kiss her would be better, but oh well, i suppose we'll have to make do with the 'your jelous' line.

#42432
Nightwriter

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Wow Ieldra, that was a really impressive collection of facts! I didn't remember half of them until you mentioned them. That's quite a resume - and again, one I feel lends itself to versatility. I agree with your assessment of her.

It's interesting, the idea of comparing Miranda and Mordin. I think they have much the same skills, with Mordin focusing more on the medical aspects and Miranda the scientific. I also think Miranda is much more of an executive mind. Mordin does not seem like the leadership type. I imagine he very rarely looks up from the microscope.

Also - omg I agree! I wished I could have the kiss scene and still tell her she wasn't just a tool or a prize horse.

#42433
Shadedclan

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Wow! This thread has been very, very long and all about Miranda. I approve and support Miranda till the end!

#42434
VampireCommando

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Shadedclan wrote...

Wow! This thread has been very, very long and all about Miranda. I approve and support Miranda till the end!


. . . well it iss the Miranda support thread for a reason lol, i'm off few a few hours guys, i got a date with my girl at some bullsh!t restraunt so i'll be back on if a few hours, do me proud.

#42435
Shadedclan

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VampireCommando wrote...

Shadedclan wrote...

Wow! This thread has been very, very long and all about Miranda. I approve and support Miranda till the end!


. . . well it iss the Miranda support thread for a reason lol, i'm off few a few hours guys, i got a date with my girl at some bullsh!t restraunt so i'll be back on if a few hours, do me proud.


I just can't believe how many people really liked Miranda.

Modifié par Shadedclan, 27 mai 2010 - 12:43 .


#42436
Ieldra

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Nightwriter wrote...
Wow Ieldra, that was a really impressive collection of facts! I didn't remember half of them until you mentioned them. That's quite a resume - and again, one I feel lends itself to versatility. I agree with your assessment of her.

Versatility, yes. In her own words: "I'm very good at just about anything I choose to do" For that reason, it's not easy to get to what connects all her various skills. And to define where her people skills end. I'm still wracking my brain about why leadership escapes her. Probably it has something to do with her emotional detachment.

It's interesting, the idea of comparing Miranda and Mordin. I think they have much the same skills, with Mordin focusing more on the medical aspects and Miranda the scientific. I also think Miranda is much more of an executive mind. Mordin does not seem like the leadership type. I imagine he very rarely looks up from the microscope.

:lol: Very much that. But I first came to compare them because they share a similar outlook. They are both consequentialists tempered by compassion. They both have a ruthless streak but are not uncaring at the same time, a kind of "The ends justify some unpleasant means, but not everything" types.

Also - omg I agree! I wished I could have the kiss scene and still tell her she wasn't just a tool or a prize horse.

Some time earlier, you can say to her "Your spirit and personality are what make you great. It's what makes
anyone great"
, which I don't like so much because I don't think it's true. Nobody is great without tangible accomplishments, anything less is not greatness but empty fame. I'd prefer to tell her "You give your father too much credit......etc." at that time instead.

#42437
Valmy

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Jestina wrote...
Helps if you paid attention to the dialogue in the game and played the first ME.


I paid attention to the dialog and I did play the first ME...multiple times...

You have anything to say or just like to spout inanities?

This thread is over 1500 pages long.  Believe me we have discussed her dialog at length.

Modifié par Valmy, 27 mai 2010 - 01:03 .


#42438
Ieldra

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Shadedclan wrote...
I just can't believe how many people really liked Miranda.

We still like her :lol:

Also, while thread length is not an accurate indicator of popularity, I believe Miranda is the most popular LI after Tali. Of course, that doesn't surprise me...

And welcome, Shadedclan, I don't think we've seen you here before.

@Valmy:
Just ignore her (?) until she brings something substantial. Anything more is just feeding the troll.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 27 mai 2010 - 01:11 .


#42439
Valmy

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Collider wrote...

I just wish there was more dialog to the love scene.


Yeah it would have been better if they did the last love talk right before the love scene.

#42440
Valmy

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Ieldra2 wrote...
@Valmy:
Just ignore her (?) until she brings something substantial. Anything more is just feeding the troll.


*nods*

#42441
Valmy

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Ieldra2 wrote...
Also, while thread length is not an accurate indicator of popularity, I believe Miranda is the most popular LI after Tali. Of course, that doesn't surprise me...


I believe Bioware has all their data from their Cerberus network.  I am sorta glad they do not pull their info from the spameriffic abilities of fans like jtav, Ieldra, and I.

#42442
jtav

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If I had to guess, I'd say Miranda and Jacob were the most popular LIs among casuals/people who don't visit the forum. They're human and you get them first.



And Valmy, aren't you glad they don't get info or ideas from me. I'm an iconoclast when it comes to Miranda.

#42443
Ieldra

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Valmy wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Also, while thread length is not an accurate indicator of popularity, I believe Miranda is the most popular LI after Tali. Of course, that doesn't surprise me...


I believe Bioware has all their data from their Cerberus network.  I am sorta glad they do not pull their info from the spameriffic abilities of fans like jtav, Ieldra, and I.

You know, I reflexively disabled game feedback after installing ME2 - before it came to me I actually wanted them to know how I play the game. I wonder how many security-conscious players like me there are who did this.

#42444
Valmy

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jtav wrote...

If I had to guess, I'd say Miranda and Jacob were the most popular LIs among casuals/people who don't visit the forum. They're human and you get them first.

And Valmy, aren't you glad they don't get info or ideas from me. I'm an iconoclast when it comes to Miranda.


Oh I actually hope they do read what you have to say about her.  I think you have great ideas on how they could have done her better...I mean besides your fanfic ideas.  I am just glad they do not use our posting rate as a rating of how popular the character is.

I doubt a male character was one of the top 2...but hey maybe there are more female Shep players than I think.

Modifié par Valmy, 27 mai 2010 - 01:42 .


#42445
Ieldra

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Another question:



Does anyone know anything about how the people at Bioware, particularly those who made Miranda and her scenes, reacted to our reception of her? I'm very curious about whether or not their expectations were met, how much of our character analysis here is in accord with their conception of her or goes off in completely unexpected directions.

#42446
Jebel Krong

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Ieldra2 wrote...

@Jebel Krong:
Here's my reasoning for Miranda's background:
(1) In ME:Galaxy, she's introduced as a well-traveled character with a big network of contacts. She acts as Jacob's handler or informant.
(2) She's an operative of Cerberus, which started as an Alliance black-ops agency according to Admiral Kahoku in ME1, and it's still unclear if the ties were ever completely severed.
(3) She envies Mordin's time in the STG. Clearly, she has some professional appreciation of the STG.
(4) She has combat experience and the physical attributes needed for combat.
(5) She's good enough at hacking that she's been able to put spy programs in her father's systems that went undetected for an unspecified but long time.
(6) She's good at the assessment of people. She herself says that, and it's confirmed by her role as project lead and the fact she can manage her contact network successfully. Occasional failures notwithstanding.

Facts like these (I think I could find a few more) firmly establish her primary character template as one associated with the spy trade. "Black-ops agent" is an appropriate term considering Cerberus' operational framework.

If you compare her with Mordin, who is an STG operative and also has both combat experience and scientific expertise, you notice there is a lot of similarity but one interesting difference: Mordin is a scientist/commando, with a similar problem-oriented mindset and combat experience, but apparently without the extensive contact network Miranda has. This puts her again, closer to the spy trade in comparison.

In fact, there is little in her background that points to her scientific expertise being her primary asset. Undoubtedly she has it, or she wouldn't have been able to lead the Lazarus cell, but Wilson was the primary scientific expert there, while Miranda has a stronger grasp of the bigger picture. Within the Lazarus project, I see her role in information and resources management. "Her" scientists, when they ran into a problem, would come to her to say "We know what we want to do, but don't know exactly how" or "We need some material with these attributes", and Miranda would know where to get the information and resources, and if necessary, other experts. She'd also have a different view on detail problems and may have been able to answer a few problems because of her wider range of information.

What both her roles share, the agent/operative and the project lead, is an ability to integrate information and deal with people on an individual, problem-oriented basis. Combined with her enhanced physical abilities, this makes her the perfect "superspy", as jtav has put it.


hmm some interesting points, but the biggest flaw is that cerberus has grown far beyond it's roots as a simple "black ops" organisation, even before you start dismantling the military side of it in me1. the fact they have research cells and have even kept the "cell" organisational makeup is moot - miranda's function on project lazarus, the only one we really know about was lead, which means - yes she knows more of the big picture than anyone else, except TIM - but not necc. anything else.

using your comparison with mordin - his over combat abilities and references too them (when you first meet him, on his side-mission etc) integrate the more spec-ops focused character and brilliant scientist that he is, whilst miranda's science credentials are firmly reinforced only at the beginning of the game, combat characteristics never are. the fact that she alludes to the STG in conversation, was in reference to her own comparison of her work vis a vis theirs and comparitive resources - again no black-ops/combat even hinted at.

i can't talk about galaxy as i haven't played it, but in mass effect 2, miranda does talk about omega when you are there, and ish certainly remembers her, again though having "informants" does not a spy make, especially when it was jacob that did the wet-work. i find it more likely she was the brains rather than brwan.

#42447
Jebel Krong

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Ieldra2 wrote...

Another question:

Does anyone know anything about how the people at Bioware, particularly those who made Miranda and her scenes, reacted to our reception of her? I'm very curious about whether or not their expectations were met, how much of our character analysis here is in accord with their conception of her or goes off in completely unexpected directions.


casey mentioned it in the last interview:

Q: Of the party members, who worked best and who worked least well?

CH: For me it was one that a lot of people say they didn't like,
which is Jack. And for a reason that is opposite from what a lot of
people say about her. A lot of people want to think the worst and
they'll say, 'Oh she's a marketing gimmick'. For me she is totally the
opposite. I think she was one of the most authentic characters. I know
people liked her. She has her guard up, and the reason she has her guard
up is because on the inside she is afraid. If you ever get to that soft
inside, she's revealed something sensitive to you that you don't want
to hurt. It's an interesting dynamic that I think comes across in a
really authentic way if you're open to that being a real character.


Q: That's interesting.

CH: But there are people who are totally in love with Miranda. She
was a simpler character I think, but a lot of people really responded to
her. I'm always amazed at the way people respond to different
characters. One of the most reproduced moments in fan art that I've seen
is characters female Shepard with Garrus in the end of their romance.
It's not even a love scene. They kind of hug and put their heads
together. Obviously for a lot of people that meant a lot to them because
there are hundreds and hundreds of paintings out there that people have
done of that moment that they're sharing.



here.

#42448
Ieldra

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Valmy wrote...
I am just glad they do not use our posting rate as a rating of how popular the character is.

Very much that. Things would get to a nasty posting race.....with no regard for content. And Tali would get three times the number of romance conversations compared to any other LI.

I doubt a male character was one of the top 2...but hey maybe there are more female Shep players than I think.

About 15-20% female players average over all games. That's information from a 2009 poll. A bit more for RPGs, very much less for shooters, IIRC. Don't know where ME2 falls, but an average percentage would fit with the results of XX55XX's character poll.

Anyway, Bioware could do worse than use some of the suggestions in this thread for Miranda's romance and general role in ME3.

#42449
Valmy

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Ieldra2 wrote...
About 15-20% female players average over all games. That's information from a 2009 poll. A bit more for RPGs, very much less for shooters, IIRC. Don't know where ME2 falls, but an average percentage would fit with the results of XX55XX's character poll.

Anyway, Bioware could do worse than use some of the suggestions in this thread for Miranda's romance and general role in ME3.


Just FYI I meant those who play female Shepard, not simply players who are female.

I have my doubts they pay too much attention to these long and intimidating character threads which is why I suggested writing a letter or something to the developers summarizing our views at one point.

#42450
Valmy

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Jebel Krong wrote...
casey mentioned it in the last interview:


Yes...but he seemed genuinely surprised people liked Miranda which is bizarre since Bioware clearly designed the character with the understanding she would be popular.