43796 réponses à ce sujet

[MrNose]

Sixth Goul wrote...

Here is a question that hasn't been asked in this way. Does anyone feel cheated playing paragon or renegade with Miranda as a Love Interest when it comes to the base? I mean, if you play mostly renegade its all good, get to the collector after that Miranda pulls a 180 to paragon. let's say you play paragon, it doesn't work with Miranda because she's too renegade, you settle for less everyone else. Miranda shows no sign of changing, not even the reaper iff changes her views. You hit the collector and Miranda pulls a one 180, now shes a paragon over something so trivia.

Miranda's paragon decision with the base is either:

Out of character if you believe its right to save the base.
In character if you believe it isn't.

Judgement is entirely one of perspective.  I think that keeping the base is foolish and believe that every point in the game supports this, and I think that Miri is intelligent, and thus her decision to be rational about the issue doesn't seem out of character to me.

[MrNose]

jtav wrote...

Liara took a deep breath. "My people can touch minds with others to exchange information. To exchange memories. "I've touched Peter's mind, and I can touch yours. I can give you every single memory I have of him. I assure you I have many memories."

The only recommendation I would have is that you change "my people" to "Asari".  Generally Liara refers to her abilities using the term, and for many cultures on Earth, the name of their culture is actually just the word for "people" in their language (Ainu, Inuit, etc.)  

[VampireCommando]

MrNose wrote...

Sixth Goul wrote...

Here is a question that hasn't been asked in this way. Does anyone feel cheated playing paragon or renegade with Miranda as a Love Interest when it comes to the base? I mean, if you play mostly renegade its all good, get to the collector after that Miranda pulls a 180 to paragon. let's say you play paragon, it doesn't work with Miranda because she's too renegade, you settle for less everyone else. Miranda shows no sign of changing, not even the reaper iff changes her views. You hit the collector and Miranda pulls a one 180, now shes a paragon over something so trivia.

Miranda's paragon decision with the base is either:

Out of character if you believe its right to save the base.
In character if you believe it isn't.

Judgement is entirely one of perspective.  I think that keeping the base is foolish and believe that every point in the game supports this, and I think that Miri is intelligent, and thus her decision to be rational about the issue doesn't seem out of character to me.

This.

[Ieldra]

MrNose wrote...

Sixth Goul wrote...

Here is a question that hasn't been asked in this way. Does anyone feel cheated playing paragon or renegade with Miranda as a Love Interest when it comes to the base? I mean, if you play mostly renegade its all good, get to the collector after that Miranda pulls a 180 to paragon. let's say you play paragon, it doesn't work with Miranda because she's too renegade, you settle for less everyone else. Miranda shows no sign of changing, not even the reaper iff changes her views. You hit the collector and Miranda pulls a one 180, now shes a paragon over something so trivia.

Miranda's paragon decision with the base is either:

Out of character if you believe its right to save the base.
In character if you believe it isn't.

Judgement is entirely one of perspective.  I think that keeping the base is foolish and believe that every point in the game supports this, and I think that Miri is intelligent, and thus her decision to be rational about the issue doesn't seem out of character to me.

Except that she isn't. Rational. Her argument is based on emotion, and that is out-of-character regardless of your opinion about the decision. Miranda wouldn't recommend a decision as important as this on nothing but a feeling that "it seems like a betrayal".

[Collider]

Ieldra, what exactly does Miranda say that you thought was based upon emotion, about the collector base?

[Valmy]

Collider wrote...

Ieldra, what exactly does Miranda say that you thought was based upon emotion, about the collector base?

She says that logically she agrees with what TIM things about the base but now that she has seen it she thinks it is wrong to keep it.  She doesn't make a logical reason why they should destroy it, and there are a few, she reacts intuitively and emotionally from having seen the horror of it.

That is what annoyed Ieldra so much.

[Collider]

Valmy wrote...

Collider wrote...

Ieldra, what exactly does Miranda say that you thought was based upon emotion, about the collector base?

She says that logically she agrees with what TIM things about the base but now that she has seen it she thinks it is wrong to keep it.  She doesn't make a logical reason why they should destroy it, and there are a few, she reacts intuitively and emotionally from having seen the horror of it.

That is what annoyed Ieldra so much.

Well Miranda isn't exactly an emotionless person. She's human, and people often do act on emotion. An example would be Miranda's romance and her loyalty mission.

[Ieldra]

Collider wrote...
Ieldra, what exactly does Miranda say that you thought was based upon emotion, about the collector base?

Miranda: "I'm not so sure. Seeing it first hand--using anything from this base seems like a betrayal."

[Ieldra]

Collider wrote...

Valmy wrote...

Collider wrote...

Ieldra, what exactly does Miranda say that you thought was based upon emotion, about the collector base?

She says that logically she agrees with what TIM things about the base but now that she has seen it she thinks it is wrong to keep it.  She doesn't make a logical reason why they should destroy it, and there are a few, she reacts intuitively and emotionally from having seen the horror of it.

That is what annoyed Ieldra so much.

Well Miranda isn't exactly an emotionless person. She's human, and people often do act on emotion. An example would be Miranda's romance and her loyalty mission.

Yes, but those are personal matters, not complex things that could touch all life in the galaxy. In things like this she'd think it through. Very thoroughly.

[Collider]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Collider wrote...
Ieldra, what exactly does Miranda say that you thought was based upon emotion, about the collector base?

Miranda: "I'm not so sure. Seeing it first hand--using anything from this base seems like a betrayal."

Do you know what she's referring to exactly about the betrayal thing?

[Collider]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Collider wrote...

Valmy wrote...

Collider wrote...

Ieldra, what exactly does Miranda say that you thought was based upon emotion, about the collector base?

She says that logically she agrees with what TIM things about the base but now that she has seen it she thinks it is wrong to keep it.  She doesn't make a logical reason why they should destroy it, and there are a few, she reacts intuitively and emotionally from having seen the horror of it.

That is what annoyed Ieldra so much.

Well Miranda isn't exactly an emotionless person. She's human, and people often do act on emotion. An example would be Miranda's romance and her loyalty mission.

Yes, but those are personal matters, not complex things that could touch all life in the galaxy. In things like this she'd think it through. Very thoroughly.

Something that could destroy all life like the Reapers can be interpreted as personal, as that would also include Miranda.

So if you keep the base, what does Miranda say?

[Nightwriter]

MrNose wrote...

The only recommendation I would have is that you change "my people" to "Asari".  Generally Liara refers to her abilities using the term, and for many cultures on Earth, the name of their culture is actually just the word for "people" in their language (Ainu, Inuit, etc.)  

Meh. Since the game itself does a very poor job of observing this very accurate distinction, I wouldn't worry too much about it.

[VampireCommando]

Collider wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Collider wrote...

Valmy wrote...

Collider wrote...

Ieldra, what exactly does Miranda say that you thought was based upon emotion, about the collector base?

She says that logically she agrees with what TIM things about the base but now that she has seen it she thinks it is wrong to keep it.  She doesn't make a logical reason why they should destroy it, and there are a few, she reacts intuitively and emotionally from having seen the horror of it.

That is what annoyed Ieldra so much.

Well Miranda isn't exactly an emotionless person. She's human, and people often do act on emotion. An example would be Miranda's romance and her loyalty mission.

Yes, but those are personal matters, not complex things that could touch all life in the galaxy. In things like this she'd think it through. Very thoroughly.

Something that could destroy all life like the Reapers can be interpreted as personal, as that would also include Miranda.

So if you keep the base, what does Miranda say?

If you have her with you on the platform i dont think she says anything, back on the normandy however i dont know.

[Ieldra]

Collider wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Collider wrote...
Ieldra, what exactly does Miranda say that you thought was based upon emotion, about the collector base?

Miranda: "I'm not so sure. Seeing it first hand--using anything from this base seems like a betrayal."

Do you know what she's referring to exactly about the betrayal thing?

She does not say. But how would you interpret it?

[Auzden]

i like how miranda resigns when TIM yells at Shepard. but its too early to be on here so ill be back later

[Jebel Krong]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Collider wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Collider wrote...
Ieldra, what exactly does Miranda say that you thought was based upon emotion, about the collector base?

Miranda: "I'm not so sure. Seeing it first hand--using anything from this base seems like a betrayal."

Do you know what she's referring to exactly about the betrayal thing?

She does not say. But how would you interpret it?

all the people that were just liquified in front of them? i don't think her reaction is necc. out of character because of an emotional reaction - given the circumstances, anyone could react like that, even if it's otherwise out of character, regardless of what you choose to do with the base. my problems with that decision do not stem from her initial reaction then, but the moral choice is was made into after, by everyone's reaction.

[Nightwriter]

I believe Miranda is saying it is a betrayal of humanity and the lives lost there.

Despite logic, the base has strong emotional significance and meaning. Sinister meaning.

[Jebel Krong]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...
They would have been better off making the destruction of the station a mandatory story-point (which it almost looks like they were going to with the way the cinematics are done), whatever your alignment.

I would have complained that it's stupid not to study it even more, since the "give it to TIM" alternative wouldn't have been the only alternative.

Why not keep MIranda in-character instead? Why must every single LI push the player into the Paragon choice? That's almost as good a reason not to succumb to Bioware's indoctrination...

i agree re not pushing the player paragon choice - you're the leader, if anything you should be infuencing your squad-mates, to a degree, not the other way around.

to get round the "study it" alternative - as badly as it was handled in the actual game (because i would have given it to the council and then as a spectre you could at least keep tabs on what they did with it) - by making it's destruction time-sensitive - i.e. the reapers are coming RIGHT NOW and we don't have time to secure it before it could be used against us more, it's obviously better to destroy it and move on, especially as only 1 ship can get back to it safely so far.

[Ieldra]

Nightwriter wrote...
I believe Miranda is saying it is a betrayal of humanity and the lives lost there.

Despite logic, the base has strong emotional significance and meaning. Sinister meaning.

Indeed. That's exactly the point. But can you afford to let your emotions overrule reason here? Would Miranda, who keeps a tight control of her emotions in all but a very few situations, allow herself to make a decision based on this intangible "sinister meaning" in a matter of this importance against the very tangible arguments in the other direction? I think not. 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 28 mai 2010 - 03:02 .

[TheSixthghoul]

MrNose wrote...

Sixth Goul wrote...

Here is a question that hasn't been asked in this way. Does anyone feel cheated playing paragon or renegade with Miranda as a Love Interest when it comes to the base? I mean, if you play mostly renegade its all good, get to the collector after that Miranda pulls a 180 to paragon. let's say you play paragon, it doesn't work with Miranda because she's too renegade, you settle for less everyone else. Miranda shows no sign of changing, not even the reaper iff changes her views. You hit the collector and Miranda pulls a one 180, now shes a paragon over something so trivia.

Miranda's paragon decision with the base is either:

Out of character if you believe its right to save the base.
In character if you believe it isn't.

Judgement is entirely one of perspective.  I think that keeping the base is foolish and believe that every point in the game supports this, and I think that Miri is intelligent, and thus her decision to be rational about the issue doesn't seem out of character to me.

Will I, disagree completely. I find it reckless to metagame an outcome and proclaim to be the one "right" choice before the next installment comes out. From, what I can tell there is no "wrong" choice only the desired outcome.
An example is giving the Tali's fleet the evidence, if you look at its the safest choice there nether going waste energy taking back their home world or waste it on finding a new. I metagamed it might happen, but I'm not  making it so...

Modifié par Sixth Goul, 28 mai 2010 - 03:09 .

[Prudii Aden]

Ieldra maintains that Miranda is acting out of character, which is a fair point, however what we should also look at is the situation that the characters are in. They don't have time to think deeply about whether or not to destroy or keep the base as they don't know when Collector reinforcements will show up, they've seen humans liquified in front of them, and they're either just coming down from an adrenaline rush or still on one. None of these things are conducive to deep thought or rational thinking. They have to make a quick decision. Add into this that humans function on both logic and emotion/instinct. Miranda, while she has a firm grasp on her emotions, I am unsurprised that her actions are influenced by them in that instance. It would be rather like being part of a strike force that hits Auschwitz, finds stupid amounts of technology as well as the horrors that are there, and the commander on the ground has to decide quickly whether his team can hold out against the enemy reinforcements until the main army can get there, or destroy the facility. They have considerably less time to think about it than we've spent discussing it. In those circumstances, I doubt anyone would be able to make a purely rational decision. Yes, the decision may be out of character, but in situations like that, laden as they are with emotion and stress, it is plausible.

[Valmy]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...
I believe Miranda is saying it is a betrayal of humanity and the lives lost there.

Despite logic, the base has strong emotional significance and meaning. Sinister meaning.

Indeed. That's exactly the point. But can you afford to let your emotions overrule reason here? Would Miranda, who keeps a tight control of her emotions in all but a very few situations, allow herself to make a decision based on this intangible "sinister meaning" in a matter of this importance against the very tangible arguments in the other direction? I think not. 

I get your point but obviously she does because she did.  This is one of those few situations where she acts on instinct.  Anyway there are tangible arguments in both directions she just doesn't use any of them.

[Ieldra]

They knew, if not exactly what to expect, to expect something horrible. Having seen what they have, it shouldn't have come as a very big surprise.

But OK, I'll stop now picking on this. Else it will break Miranda for me. I'm beginning to understand jtav and her concern for character traits keeping consistent more and more. I'm going to pretend it didn't happen.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 28 mai 2010 - 04:06 .

[Nightwriter]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...
I believe Miranda is saying it is a betrayal of humanity and the lives lost there.

Despite logic, the base has strong emotional significance and meaning. Sinister meaning.

Indeed. That's exactly the point. But can you afford to let your emotions overrule reason here? Would Miranda, who keeps a tight control of her emotions in all but a very few situations, allow herself to make a decision based on this intangible "sinister meaning" in a matter of this importance against the very tangible arguments in the other direction? I think not. 

I think what Miranda is expressing here most is hesitancy. This in itself can be interpreted as out of character, but I choose to believe it's actually character development - she is being faced with a powerful emotional dilemma for the first time.

Miranda doesn't speak much about her logical perspective on this, so I can't say how present it is. She only seems struck by an emotional reaction that makes her waver. What we are seeing is doubt.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 28 mai 2010 - 04:12 .

[Ieldra]

Nightwriter wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...
I believe Miranda is saying it is a betrayal of humanity and the lives lost there.

Despite logic, the base has strong emotional significance and meaning. Sinister meaning.

Indeed. That's exactly the point. But can you afford to let your emotions overrule reason here? Would Miranda, who keeps a tight control of her emotions in all but a very few situations, allow herself to make a decision based on this intangible "sinister meaning" in a matter of this importance against the very tangible arguments in the other direction? I think not. 

I think what Miranda is expressing here most is hesitancy. This in itself can be interpreted as out of character, but I choose to believe it's actually character development - she is being faced with a powerful emotional dilemma for the first time.

Miranda doesn't speak much about her logical perspective on this, so I can't say how present it is. She only seems struck by an emotional reaction that makes her waver. What we are seeing is doubt.

Someone said that Miranda's response was intended to be more neutral, so you are most probably correct in your interpretation. It didn't come across as "more neutral" to me, which is why I counted it OOC, but you interpret it in this way I'm OK with it. Hesistancy in the face of what she's seeing, that I can believe. 

I must say you have helped me very much in coming to terms with Miranda's behaviour. Thank you. I'll still keep the base, though, with all but one of my Shepards. If it turns out too badly, I'd rather replay the whole thing.