43796 réponses à ce sujet

[kraidy1117]

Ieldra2 wrote...

snfonseka wrote...

"Oriana is Miri's twin".... well I didn't remebmer that  !
Anyway if that is the case, they are non-identical twins...

Miranda says Oriana is her twin sister, and she can only be her genetic twin, because the usual definition of twin doesn't apply. That Oriana looks like one the ME universe generic women instead of like a 19-year-old Miranda is probably a modelling issue. Bioware didn't want to make an extra model for a character you see for about five seconds, and used one of the game's standard models instead, tweaked here and there for a little individuality.

Twins does not mean you have to look alike, it means you have the same DNA. I have met brother-sister twin pair, I have met twins who look nothing alike ect, it all comes to uder the skin, not what we see. Maybe her father wanted to make Oriana less sexy and make her look more bland, I don't know what the moron thinks.

Modifié par kraidy1117, 29 mai 2010 - 07:59 .

[kraidy1117]

Ieldra2 wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...
*peaks in*

*pokes a stick into the peephole*

AHA, you poke my fake eye

[Ieldra]

kraidy1117 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

snfonseka wrote...
"Oriana is Miri's twin".... well I didn't remebmer that  !
Anyway if that is the case, they are non-identical twins...

Miranda says Oriana is her twin sister, and she can only be her genetic twin, because the usual definition of twin doesn't apply. That Oriana looks like one the ME universe generic women instead of like a 19-year-old Miranda is probably a modelling issue. Bioware didn't want to make an extra model for a character you see for about five seconds, and used one of the game's standard models instead, tweaked here and there for a little individuality.

Twins does not mean you have to look alike, it means you have the same DNA. I have met brother-sister twin pair, I have met twins who look nothing alike ect, it all comes to uder the skin, not what we see. Maybe her father wanted to make Oriana less sexy and make her look more bland, I don't know what the moron thinks.

You didn't get my meaning: in our present world, twins are twins because they come from the same pregnancy. That does not apply to Miranda and her sister, so they can't be that kind of twins. These standard twins, while born together, do not share more DNA than regular brothers and sisters. The only remaining definition of a twin applicable to Miranda and Oriana is the genetic twin, which is the identical twin, for were it otherwise, they wouldn't be twins at all but normal sisters. If, then, Miranda and Oriana are twins at all, they must be genetically identical twins. If they are, then they should look at least somewhat similar. Which they do not. And that needs an explanation.

BTW:
You can watch with your fake eye? That's quite an accomplishment. Or do the events you watch only occur in your imagination....

Modifié par Ieldra2, 29 mai 2010 - 08:43 .

[Arijharn]

 I've recently being playing Alpha Protocol. I think it's an above average game to be honest, as it has a great deal of morale choices (prevent a riot which will cause many civilian deaths, or prevent an assassination attempt for example). It's storyline was I thought fantastic because of this, but may become a little cliche at times.

Gameplay? That's a total mix bag in my opinion. Because it tries to be good at different styles of play (Shooter aka Gears of War, or a Sam Fisher style espionage bad ass, or even a tactical engineer who lays traps etc) it inevitably comes out short on all sides. It's made the mistake I guess of the original ME, where to be good at something you have to spend a stupid amount of points in it (although, credit where it's due, it's much less pronounced in Alpha Protocol than it was in ME1, after-all, you practically had to sink your points into pistols and then into Sniper Rifles as an Infiltrator to get remotely accurate, but you never actually become truly accurate because you couldn't hold your breath before you squeezed off a shot, and you didn't have that ultra handy 'time dilation' effect). 

As such, to continue with the whole gameplay 'objective analysis' there's features in the game that are sorta lacking for a want of a better term. If you're playing a sneaky type Michael Thorton, it would behoove you to actually move bodies out of enemy patrol routes, but you can't do this (a rambo Michael obviously wouldn't care as much). And the artificial way to get rid of bodies (seemingly as easy as turning the camera around to look in another direction) kinda makes the whole issue laughable. For any type of game you want to play it as, other games have done it better.

However, like I said, it's story is awesome and suitably machaivallean (if somewhat predictable), and the minigame of hacking etc are quite fun, and actually require thought, unlike a certain Effect of Mass of number 2. The actual combat though, if you can get over the fact that other games have done it 'better' is still quite fun, and the perk system is very awesome (basically things you do over the course of the game rewards you). The game is an RPG through and through though, and as little sense as activating Shadow Operative and wading between the legs (almost) of elite CIA agents without them realising it makes, it's still fun.

Actually, one thing that slightly bugs me is that enemy's walking and their animations, don't seem to match up with their actual walking speed. I'm not sure if it's me imagining that though.

[Shadedclan]

Ieldra2 wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

snfonseka wrote...
"Oriana is Miri's twin".... well I didn't remebmer that  !
Anyway if that is the case, they are non-identical twins...

Miranda says Oriana is her twin sister, and she can only be her genetic twin, because the usual definition of twin doesn't apply. That Oriana looks like one the ME universe generic women instead of like a 19-year-old Miranda is probably a modelling issue. Bioware didn't want to make an extra model for a character you see for about five seconds, and used one of the game's standard models instead, tweaked here and there for a little individuality.

Twins does not mean you have to look alike, it means you have the same DNA. I have met brother-sister twin pair, I have met twins who look nothing alike ect, it all comes to uder the skin, not what we see. Maybe her father wanted to make Oriana less sexy and make her look more bland, I don't know what the moron thinks.

You didn't get my meaning: in our present world, twins are twins because they come from the same pregnancy. That does not apply to Miranda and her sister, so they can't be that kind of twins. These standard twins, while born together, do not share more DNA than regular brothers and sisters. The only remaining definition of a twin applicable to Miranda and Oriana is the genetic twin, which is the identical twin, for were it otherwise, they wouldn't be twins at all but normal sisters. If, then, Miranda and Oriana are twins at all, they must be genetically identical twins. If they are, then they should look at least somewhat similar. Which they do not. And that needs an explanation.

BTW:
You can watch with your fake eye? That's quite an accomplishment. Or do the events you watch only occur in your imagination....

Twin is twin. They're twins, only gentically. To quote, superficial is irrelevant.

[VampireCommando]

*put head in*

'ah yes the Mirianda and her twin should look the same theory. we have dismissed this claim,'

On a more serious side, there not ideanical twins, there genitic twins, there more akin to clones than anything else, but being her genetic twin alows Oriana to look diffrent and be almost half of Miri's age, whislt still retaining gentic idenitcality.

But all this genetics buisness is confusing me, i'm good with math and computers not DNA and the randomness that is all this weird cloning/ twin stuff so i'll stay out of this one or my brain will melt by getting more and more confused

Modifié par VampireCommando, 29 mai 2010 - 10:34 .

[Ieldra]

Shadedclan wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

snfonseka wrote...
"Oriana is Miri's twin".... well I didn't remebmer that  !
Anyway if that is the case, they are non-identical twins...

Miranda says Oriana is her twin sister, and she can only be her genetic twin, because the usual definition of twin doesn't apply. That Oriana looks like one the ME universe generic women instead of like a 19-year-old Miranda is probably a modelling issue. Bioware didn't want to make an extra model for a character you see for about five seconds, and used one of the game's standard models instead, tweaked here and there for a little individuality.

Twins does not mean you have to look alike, it means you have the same DNA. I have met brother-sister twin pair, I have met twins who look nothing alike ect, it all comes to uder the skin, not what we see. Maybe her father wanted to make Oriana less sexy and make her look more bland, I don't know what the moron thinks.

You didn't get my meaning: in our present world, twins are twins because they come from the same pregnancy. That does not apply to Miranda and her sister, so they can't be that kind of twins. These standard twins, while born together, do not share more DNA than regular brothers and sisters. The only remaining definition of a twin applicable to Miranda and Oriana is the genetic twin, which is the identical twin, for were it otherwise, they wouldn't be twins at all but normal sisters. If, then, Miranda and Oriana are twins at all, they must be genetically identical twins. If they are, then they should look at least somewhat similar. Which they do not. And that needs an explanation.

Twin is twin. They're twins, only gentically. To quote, superficial is irrelevant.

The problem is that there are no "genetic twins". Genes are absolutely irrelevant for the state of being a twin. The term is undefined unless you use it as a synonym for monozygotic twins, i.e. twins coming from the same egg and having, apart from mutations, exactly the same genes.

Monozygotic twins are almost always very similar. That's why they're called "identical". And they look similar exactly because they have identical DNA, apart from mutations. To say that genes and appearance are unconnected is nonsense.

Dizygotic twins needn't look similar. But Miranda and Oriana can't be dizygotic twins - for that they would have to be carried in the same pregnancy (that's the definition of "twins"), which is impossible due to their age difference. They must be monozygotic "identical" twins if Miranda's statement that Oriana is her twin has any meaning. If they are neither, they are no twins at all.

Or genetic engineering has come up with some new kind of twin. That's a possibility, but in that case I'd have expected Miranda to come up with an explanation and answer the question: what exactly makes Oriana her twin instead of a regular sister.

@VampireCommando:
No, you don't agree with me. You didn't understand what I was saying.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 29 mai 2010 - 10:33 .

[VampireCommando]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Shadedclan wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

snfonseka wrote...
"Oriana is Miri's twin".... well I didn't remebmer that  !
Anyway if that is the case, they are non-identical twins...

Miranda says Oriana is her twin sister, and she can only be her genetic twin, because the usual definition of twin doesn't apply. That Oriana looks like one the ME universe generic women instead of like a 19-year-old Miranda is probably a modelling issue. Bioware didn't want to make an extra model for a character you see for about five seconds, and used one of the game's standard models instead, tweaked here and there for a little individuality.

Twins does not mean you have to look alike, it means you have the same DNA. I have met brother-sister twin pair, I have met twins who look nothing alike ect, it all comes to uder the skin, not what we see. Maybe her father wanted to make Oriana less sexy and make her look more bland, I don't know what the moron thinks.

You didn't get my meaning: in our present world, twins are twins because they come from the same pregnancy. That does not apply to Miranda and her sister, so they can't be that kind of twins. These standard twins, while born together, do not share more DNA than regular brothers and sisters. The only remaining definition of a twin applicable to Miranda and Oriana is the genetic twin, which is the identical twin, for were it otherwise, they wouldn't be twins at all but normal sisters. If, then, Miranda and Oriana are twins at all, they must be genetically identical twins. If they are, then they should look at least somewhat similar. Which they do not. And that needs an explanation.

Twin is twin. They're twins, only gentically. To quote, superficial is irrelevant.

The problem is that there are no "genetic twins". Genes are absolutely irrelevant for the state of being a twin. The term is undefined unless you use it as a synonym for monozygotic twins, i.e. twins coming from the same egg and having, apart from mutations, exactly the same genes.

Monozygotic twins are almost always very similar. That's why they're called "identical". And they look similar exactly because they have identical DNA, apart from mutations. To say that genes and appearance are unconnected is nonsense.

And since Miranda and Oriana can't be dizygotic twins - for that they would have to be carried in the same pregnancy, which is impossible due to their age difference - they must be monozygotic "identical" twins if Miranda's statement that Oriana is her twin has any meaning.

Or genetic engineering has come up with some new kind of twin. That's a possibility, but in that case I'd have expected Miranda to come up with an explanation.

@VampireCommando:
No, you don't agree with me. You didn't understand what I was saying.

Lol i'm sorry Ieldra i think i may have mistaken someone else for yours, but thats what happens when everyone starts with massive quotes like this one.

And i'm no expert on all this twin stuff whicg everyone else seems to be , damn you guys for seemingly knowing everything about everything. I think its best for me to stay out of this cloneing one before my brain goes into melt down, and none of use want that

[Ieldra]

VampireCommando wrote...
And i'm no expert on all this twin stuff whicg everyone else seems to be, damn you guys for seemingly knowing everything about everything.

It's really very simple:

(1) Two humans are twins if and only if they were carried in the same pregnancy.
(2) Miranda and Oriana were not carried in the same pregnancy or they would be the same age.
(3) It follows that Miranda and Oriana are not twins.

Thats leaves the question of what exactly Miranda means when she says Oriana is her twin. Mere genetic similarity doesn't justify the term, that applies to any sister. The only kind of twin with any genetic distinctiveness from normal sisters and brothers is the identical twin. So, if Miranda and Oriana are twins at all, they must be identical twins and should look similar. But they don't. Why? The age difference and different lifestyles might muddle things up a bit, but the fact they look so strikingly dissimilar needs an explanation.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 29 mai 2010 - 10:45 .

[VampireCommando]

Ieldra2 wrote...

VampireCommando wrote...
And i'm no expert on all this twin stuff whicg everyone else seems to be, damn you guys for seemingly knowing everything about everything.

It's really very simple:

(1) Two humans are twins if and only if they were carried in the same pregnancy.
(2) Miranda and Oriana were not carried in the same pregnancy or they would be the same age.
(3) It follows that Miranda and Oriana are not twins.

Thats leaves the question of what exactly Miranda means when she says Oriana is her twin. The only kind of twin with any genetic distinctiveness is the identical twin. So, if Miranda and Oriana are twins at all, they must be identical twins and should look similar. But they don't. Why?

Thanks for clearing that up for me. Thinking about it maybe what she meant is that she is her twin in Miri's eyes as she is made from the exact same genetic material, i don't think its meant to be a dead, scientifically plausiable but more likely just Miri saying she is her twin because thats how Miri feels about her. For instance we've all got a best friend that we concider a brother/ sister and are treated as such. I just think that Miri looks at Oriana as her twin because theorleticaly she is (maybe) but like you said they aren't identical twins, and they are of a diffrent age so they cannot be twins, thats why i said to me it seems like they are more akin to clones than anything else because a clone can be a diffrent age to the original and they have the excat same genetic material as each other, the only thing is with clones is that just like identical twins they look (or are meant to) look exactly the same as each other. But when it comes down to Oriana being Miri's 'twin' i just think it is a choice of words and what Miri feels that they are closet to than anything else.

Modifié par VampireCommando, 29 mai 2010 - 10:47 .

[Caihn]

Miranda calls Oriana her twin because they share the same DNA.
But few people look exactly the same when they are 19 and 35. Besides, Oriana has a different hair cut, it doesn't help.
I think Bioware tried to make them similar but not exactly the same. Oriana is modeled with female's default face, and it's difficult to do better with this.

Modifié par Yannkee, 29 mai 2010 - 11:32 .

[Ieldra]

Yannkee wrote...
I think Bioware tried to make them similar but not exactly the same. Oriana is modeled with female's default face, and it's difficult to do better with this.

That's what I said. They didn't want to make a new model for a character you see for about five seconds in the whole game. The strange thing, and where I think they should have spent more effort on, is that Oriana doesn't look younger. If you look closely at her face, you might even come to think she's older than Miranda.  

[Shadedclan]

VampireCommando wrote...

*put head in*

'ah yes the Mirianda and her twin should look the same theory. we have dismissed this claim,'

On a more serious side, there not ideanical twins, there genitic twins, there more akin to clones than anything else, but being her genetic twin alows Oriana to look diffrent and be almost half of Miri's age, whislt still retaining gentic idenitcality.

But all this genetics buisness is confusing me, i'm good with math and computers not DNA and the randomness that is all this weird cloning/ twin stuff so i'll stay out of this one or my brain will melt by getting more and more confused

Yes, Genetics is confusing, as a subset of Biology but Mordin is an expert, which is known as a Tautology.

[Caihn]

Ieldra2 wrote...
The strange thing, and where I think they should have spent more effort on, is that Oriana doesn't look younger. If you look closely at her face, you might even come to think she's older than Miranda.  

I think it's because of the hair cut too.

[Ieldra]

Yannkee wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
The strange thing, and where I think they should have spent more effort on, is that Oriana doesn't look younger. If you look closely at her face, you might even come to think she's older than Miranda.  

I think it's because of the hair cut too.

No. In fact, if you ignore her hair, it gets worse. It's the facial contours. Anyway, a small matter... I'd rather have a believable helmet for Miranda in space than a better model for Oriana. Both would be preferable, of course.

[VampireCommando]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Yannkee wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
The strange thing, and where I think they should have spent more effort on, is that Oriana doesn't look younger. If you look closely at her face, you might even come to think she's older than Miranda.  

I think it's because of the hair cut too.

No. In fact, if you ignore her hair, it gets worse. It's the facial contours. Anyway, a small matter... I'd rather have a believable helmet for Miranda in space than a better model for Oriana. Both would be preferable, of course.

Yeah i think having no eye protection in a vacum enviroment would sting a bit, to say the least.

[jtav]

Re Oriana: Miranda herself says they're genetically identical. Considering Miranda's relative age is 23, they really should have used the same model with a different haircut to make her look slightly younger.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote....
Re Oriana: Miranda herself says they're genetically identical. Considering Miranda's relative age is 23, they really should have used the same model with a different haircut to make her look slightly younger.

Indeed does she say that. If I had bothered to check gutty47's dialogue tree we could have avoided all this debate.

...and what's wrong with the forum software again. This post went somewhere into nowhere when I tried to post it last. And I couldn't quote.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 29 mai 2010 - 02:58 .

[jtav]

What's scary is that I didn't have to look that up. I have a considerable amount of Miranda's dialogue memorized.

[TheSixthghoul]

They really need to improve Miranda skill set. Does anyone have a move they thing would go well with her character? I say adrenaline rush.

[jtav]

Her skill set is fine. I take her everywhere for a reason.

[Ieldra]

Sixth Goul wrote...

They really need to improve Miranda skill set. Does anyone have a move they thing would go well with her character? I say adrenaline rush.

Improve? What's there to improve? Miranda has the best skill set of all team members: Warp, Override and that nice class skill that gives the whole squad more health. Slam is a cheap Throw, OK, but really she's fine with her skills.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 29 mai 2010 - 05:07 .

[Ashton808]

I agree that Miranda is probably one of the best squadmates. Not only she has the looks, but she is a skilled fighter! She is a Sentinel, biotic and tech together creates deadly results!

[Ieldra]

@Sixth Goul:

Apart from what's been said above, Adrenaline Rush is a Soldier skill, completely inappropriate for Miranda.