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[jtav]

I've just spent the last fifteen minutes trying to explain on the Tali thread that I find her interesting now, but don't find her attractive, nor am I particularly interested in her romance. Pretty sure they think I'm an idiot or a troll.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
I've just spent the last fifteen minutes trying to explain on the Tali thread that I find her interesting now, but don't find her attractive, nor am I particularly interested in her romance. Pretty sure they think I'm an idiot or a troll.

They certainly didn't take you seriously. And hit on you because of your Miranda avatar - that thread is a strange place. I feel creeped out just looking into it for a few minutes.

Perhaps we need a Miranda picture to restore our sanity.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 29 mai 2010 - 07:08 .

[jtav]

Aw, thanks Ieldra. To be fair, I'm pretty sure I got some odd looks when I started posting here. But it depresses me how hard it is to explain that you can like a character without finding them attractive. Including Miranda.

[Collider]

Alpha Protocol may not be the best spy RPG, but I appreciate what it tried to do. I think I'll pick the game up for a rent, because I still very much like moral choices in games, and I hear that this game has plenty of replay value - if one can stomach the broken gameplay.

[kraidy1117]

Ieldra2 wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

snfonseka wrote...
"Oriana is Miri's twin".... well I didn't remebmer that  !
Anyway if that is the case, they are non-identical twins...

Miranda says Oriana is her twin sister, and she can only be her genetic twin, because the usual definition of twin doesn't apply. That Oriana looks like one the ME universe generic women instead of like a 19-year-old Miranda is probably a modelling issue. Bioware didn't want to make an extra model for a character you see for about five seconds, and used one of the game's standard models instead, tweaked here and there for a little individuality.

Twins does not mean you have to look alike, it means you have the same DNA. I have met brother-sister twin pair, I have met twins who look nothing alike ect, it all comes to uder the skin, not what we see. Maybe her father wanted to make Oriana less sexy and make her look more bland, I don't know what the moron thinks.

You didn't get my meaning: in our present world, twins are twins because they come from the same pregnancy. That does not apply to Miranda and her sister, so they can't be that kind of twins. These standard twins, while born together, do not share more DNA than regular brothers and sisters. The only remaining definition of a twin applicable to Miranda and Oriana is the genetic twin, which is the identical twin, for were it otherwise, they wouldn't be twins at all but normal sisters. If, then, Miranda and Oriana are twins at all, they must be genetically identical twins. If they are, then they should look at least somewhat similar. Which they do not. And that needs an explanation.

BTW:
You can watch with your fake eye? That's quite an accomplishment. Or do the events you watch only occur in your imagination....

Not realy, they could have the same genes and still not look alike. It's poseable Mr.Lawson used the same genes he used for Miri to make Oriana but made her look diffrent. Thats what I got out of it my self. I think we will have to agree to disagree Ieldra

And yes, my fake eye see's everything. It is magical like the sisters of Fate.

[kraidy1117]

Ieldra2 wrote...

jtav wrote...
I've just spent the last fifteen minutes trying to explain on the Tali thread that I find her interesting now, but don't find her attractive, nor am I particularly interested in her romance. Pretty sure they think I'm an idiot or a troll.

They certainly didn't take you seriously. And hit on you because of your Miranda avatar - that thread is a strange place. I feel creeped out just looking into it for a few minutes.

There is some nice people there, but some are way too crazy for my liking, not to mention I got flamed when I think of Tali as a sister, that was a fun night.

Modifié par kraidy1117, 29 mai 2010 - 07:49 .

[Collider]

Good to see you unbanned Kraidy.

[kraidy1117]

Collider wrote...

Good to see you unbanned Kraidy.

I was unbanned yesterday but I was playing alot of Galaxy 2 so I did't get really get on here yesterday expect for late this morining whioch was at around 4 I beleive.

[jtav]

kraidy, I'm reasonably certain biology doesn't work that way. Miranda and Oriana are identical twins.



As for the Tali thread, I don't think I'll post there often. Maybe I should field my theory in the character discussion group.

[kraidy1117]

jtav wrote...

kraidy, I'm reasonably certain biology doesn't work that way. Miranda and Oriana are identical twins.

As for the Tali thread, I don't think I'll post there often. Maybe I should field my theory in the character discussion group.

I take it as meaning they are indenical underneth the skin, not what they look like.

[Collider]

As for the Tali thread, I don't think I'll post there often. Maybe I should field my theory in the character discussion group.

Good idea.

I was unbanned yesterday but I was playing alot of Galaxy 2 so I did't get really get on here yesterday expect for late this morining whioch was at around 4 I beleive.

I heard it was a pretty good game. Not sure if it could compare to Mario 64 though.

[Ieldra]

kraidy1117 wrote...
Not realy, they could have the same genes and still not look alike. It's poseable Mr.Lawson used the same genes he used for Miri to make Oriana but made her look diffrent. Thats what I got out of it my self. I think we will have to agree to disagree Ieldra.

There's nothing to agree to disagree about. You are wrong. While identical twins are not exactly identical, they are always very similar. It's not possible that two people with identical genes look very different except through environmental influences like lifestyle or age. And even then you'd notice some similarity. Which is why I discount Oriana's appearance as a result of Bioware saving the costs of an extra model.

[kraidy1117]

Ieldra2 wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...
Not realy, they could have the same genes and still not look alike. It's poseable Mr.Lawson used the same genes he used for Miri to make Oriana but made her look diffrent. Thats what I got out of it my self. I think we will have to agree to disagree Ieldra.

There's nothing to agree to disagree about. You are wrong. While identical twins are not exactly identical, they are always very similar. It's not possible that two people with identical genes look very different except through environmental influences like lifestyle or age. And even then you'd notice some similarity. Which is why I discount Oriana's appearance as a result of Bioware saving the costs of an extra model.

Again we have not really seen her that much, we only saw her face and she was wearing a dress. It is poseable that her body looks like Miri's but not her face. If I was Mr.Lawson I would have made a diffrent face for Oriana, it just makes sence. She could have the same birthmarks like Miri does for crying outloud. We have only seen her face, nothing else. I have seen twins in my life who don't have the same face but many things of there body are indenical (birthmarks on the same place, same big toe shape, same structure ect)

Modifié par kraidy1117, 29 mai 2010 - 08:05 .

[Ieldra]

kraidy1117 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...
Not realy, they could have the same genes and still not look alike. It's poseable Mr.Lawson used the same genes he used for Miri to make Oriana but made her look diffrent. Thats what I got out of it my self. I think we will have to agree to disagree Ieldra.

There's nothing to agree to disagree about. You are wrong. While identical twins are not exactly identical, they are always very similar. It's not possible that two people with identical genes look very different except through environmental influences like lifestyle or age. And even then you'd notice some similarity. Which is why I discount Oriana's appearance as a result of Bioware saving the costs of an extra model.

Again we have not really seen her that much, we only saw her face and she was wearing a dress. It is poseable that her body looks like Miri's but not her face. If I was Mr.Lawson I would have made a diffrent face for Oriana, it just makes sence. She could have the same birthmarks like Miri does for crying outloud. We have only seen her face, nothing else. I have seen twins in my life who don't have the same face but many things of there body are indenical (birthmarks on the same place, same big toe shape, same structure ect)

You can't just "make" faces to your specification from just any genetic profile! That's not how developmental biology works! You can only let the whole organism grow from a genetic template. Once the process (i.e. a pregnancy) is set in motion, you have very little influence on the details. Except if you apply cosmetic surgery while growing up, and I think we can discount that.
And if you have seen twins with very different faces, well, were they identical twins? Or just twins? Regular twins can have any level of similarity. Or not. Miranda and Oriana are genetically identical. And genetically identical twins look very similar and only grow different from environmental influences. Period. That's a biological fact. There's no arguing with it.
Now, Miranda and Oriana are 16 years apart, but otherwise they seem to have lived relatively healthy lifestyles. Oriana looks much too old to be Miranda's 19-year-old sister, especially considering that she'd have to look even younger because of their added lifespan.

So, if you want to give an in-world explanation of Oriana looking like she does, do so, but don't try to argue with facts. Facts aren't susceptible to your beliefs.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 29 mai 2010 - 08:27 .

[kraidy1117]

Ieldra2 wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...
Not realy, they could have the same genes and still not look alike. It's poseable Mr.Lawson used the same genes he used for Miri to make Oriana but made her look diffrent. Thats what I got out of it my self. I think we will have to agree to disagree Ieldra.

There's nothing to agree to disagree about. You are wrong. While identical twins are not exactly identical, they are always very similar. It's not possible that two people with identical genes look very different except through environmental influences like lifestyle or age. And even then you'd notice some similarity. Which is why I discount Oriana's appearance as a result of Bioware saving the costs of an extra model.

Again we have not really seen her that much, we only saw her face and she was wearing a dress. It is poseable that her body looks like Miri's but not her face. If I was Mr.Lawson I would have made a diffrent face for Oriana, it just makes sence. She could have the same birthmarks like Miri does for crying outloud. We have only seen her face, nothing else. I have seen twins in my life who don't have the same face but many things of there body are indenical (birthmarks on the same place, same big toe shape, same structure ect)

You can't just "make" faces to your specification from just any genetic profile! That's not how developmental biology works! You can only let the whole organism grow from a genetic template. Once the process (i.e. a pregnancy) is set in motion, you have very little influence on the details. Except if you apply cosmetic surgery while growing up, and I think we can discount that.
And if you have seen twins with very different faces, well, were they identical twins? Or just twins? Regular twins can have any level of similarity. Or not. Miranda and Oriana are genetically identical. And genetically identical twins look very similar and only grow different from environmental influences. Period. That's a biological fact. There's no arguing with it.
Now, Miranda and Oriana are 16 years apart, but otherwise they seem to have lived relatively healthy lifestyles. Oriana looks much too old to be Miranda's 19-year-old sister, especially considering that she'd have to look even younger because of their added lifespan.

So, if you want to give an in-world explanation of Oriana looking like she does, do so, but don't try to argue with facts. Facts aren't susceptible to your beliefs.

 
Mr.Lawson was able to get biotic powers into Miri's system before  biotic powers where even found to be poseable for humans.. This is sci-fi, the ME series is the same seires that has people running around in space with breathing mask, the same series that can have machines melt people into gennetic paste. Mr.Lawson making sure Oriana has a diffrent face is not far fechted in the ME universe. This is Sci-fi we are talking about, yes ME and ME2 are relistic in some areas but some areas are not and this is one of them. Until we see Orianas body we can't say anything, all we have is a face. There is many things that go over biology in the ME series, this is one of them.

It is also poseable Oriana might have changed her face, maybe Miri looked like that when she was 19. We don't know, we are looking at a 19 year old and a 35 year old. There is a gap there.

Modifié par kraidy1117, 29 mai 2010 - 08:37 .

[jtav]

Out of curiosity, does anybody have any pet Miranda theories that you don't believe are canon but nevertheless like anyway? Mine is that Miranda was originally an L2 biotic who suffered from chronic pain for a number of years before upgrading. It's part of the reason she's better at finesse than strength in biotic combat; she had to learn to pull her punches to avoid a cerebral hemorrhage or similar. Zero in the game to support this except that she's a year older than Kaidan, but I really love the idea.



My other is that she spent some time on Omega after running away. Picked up some pickpocketing and small arms skills, as well as an appreciation for how nasty the galaxy can be.

[kraidy1117]

jtav wrote...

Out of curiosity, does anybody have any pet Miranda theories that you don't believe are canon but nevertheless like anyway? Mine is that Miranda was originally an L2 biotic who suffered from chronic pain for a number of years before upgrading. It's part of the reason she's better at finesse than strength in biotic combat; she had to learn to pull her punches to avoid a cerebral hemorrhage or similar. Zero in the game to support this except that she's a year older than Kaidan, but I really love the idea.

My other is that she spent some time on Omega after running away. Picked up some pickpocketing and small arms skills, as well as an appreciation for how nasty the galaxy can be.

I think she was a L2, she is older then Kaidan and was a boitic since she was born. So I would't be surprise if she was, but then decided to get a L3 implant.

As for Oemga that would make sence, tho I think it might be Illuim because of her contacts, but then Omega als has alot of her contacts, I would say it was either of those two places, she could also be a duct rat opn the Citidel.

[TheSixthghoul]

It's still called Warming to Miranda, how unfortunate. Miranda: Mass Effects first and only true heroine is clearly better and rightly deserved. It makes a statement words can no describe of how awesome Miranda is and how she should have been on the cover of Mass Effect 1 regardless, if she was in it.

[Ieldra]

kraidy1117 wrote...
There is many things that go over biology in the ME series, this is one of them.

You have just posted a rant trigger. I will not resist it.

Sorry kraidy, you just don't "go over" biology. You may influence its processes, but not ignore them. I could tell you something about the speculative procedures you would have to use to make a child's face different from the one programmed in its genes. Genetics alone can't do it, not even in an SF universe. You'd have to influence the growth process. Maybe by pharmaceuticals, by surgical procedures, maybe even by biotics in the ME universe. Well OK, Miranda's father could have done that if the knowledge existed, and we don't know. But conservative as the ME universe is with regard to life sciences, I very much doubt it.

In more general terms, any explanation that just posits something without any evidence going for it is equal to saying "It's magic. Just accept it". That's, for instance, why I am unable to "just accept" inter-species romance. I will not stop ranting about its implausibility until I am given a plausible in-world explanation. I've said this before: an SF universe can go anywhere and be incredibly fantastic in any area of science we know little about - dark matter, dark energy, black holes etc., all that's up for the grabs to explain technological miracles. But when it comes to areas we actually know something about, then you can't just blithely ignore facts. And before you quote advancements in science at me: new theories do not ignore older facts. They incorporate them into a bigger system.

And now we'd better go back to Miranda. Ah yes...Miranda, an expert in the life sciences, does not approve of your line of reasoning:

[jtav]

She would have been too old to be a duct rat. And Omega is exactly the kind of place--different species mingling, the activity--that a teenager who is still sheltered in some ways would find romantic in theory.



She was almost certainly an L2 at some point, though I freely admit that the chronic pain is a bit of Mary Sue-ing on my part.

[Ieldra]

Sixth Goul wrote...
It's still called Warming to Miranda, how unfortunate. Miranda: Mass Effects first and only true heroine is clearly better and rightly deserved. It makes a statement words can no describe of how awesome Miranda is and how she should have been on the cover of Mass Effect 1 regardless, if she was in it.

You might PM DarthReavus and try to convince him. 
You'd have to do it without my support, though, because I think your title is too over-the-top.

[jtav]

I can accept the interspecies romance. Mostly because I regard the series as something closer to Star Trek than a serious attempt at hard SF. Time worn genre convention, so I go with it.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
Out of curiosity, does anybody have any pet Miranda theories that you don't believe are canon but nevertheless like anyway? Mine is that Miranda was originally an L2 biotic who suffered from chronic pain for a number of years before upgrading. It's part of the reason she's better at finesse than strength in biotic combat; she had to learn to pull her punches to avoid a cerebral hemorrhage or similar. Zero in the game to support this except that she's a year older than Kaidan, but I really love the idea.

My other is that she spent some time on Omega after running away. Picked up some pickpocketing and small arms skills, as well as an appreciation for how nasty the galaxy can be.

My pet theory is actually somewhat supported by lore: I think Miranda can use her biotics to influence her own mass with the result that she can jump and levitate like we see Samara doing in her recruitment mission. My reasoning for this is that biotic power is basically a unified power with different effects, and it's based on influencing the mass/gravity of objects. There are basic abilities like pull and throw you might call telekinetic powers, and advanced abilities like Warp, which I explain as a gravitational disintegration effect, a sort of micro-tide. The ability to make yourself lighter or heavier, thus, is an instance of a basic ability similar to pushing things (we see Miranda do that), which any biotic can learn to some degree. In my mind, Miranda has had this ability from an early age but concealed it until she ran away. It's strong enough that she can fall any distance, jump extremely high and let herself float for a few seconds at the high point of a jump..
 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 29 mai 2010 - 09:29 .

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
She would have been too old to be a duct rat. And Omega is exactly the kind of place--different species mingling, the activity--that a teenager who is still sheltered in some ways would find romantic in theory.

She was almost certainly an L2 at some point, though I freely admit that the chronic pain is a bit of Mary Sue-ing on my part.

I like the idea that she spent some time on Omega. It fits seamless into my image of her. But I do not think she's had any implants that could be described in the usual system. I think she has had unique highly experimental implants. But I have no idea what she has now.

Edit:
Regarding biology - I did try the Thane romance. Even so, I've not made peace with the idea. Biotics are so much easier to "just accept", in spite of the absolute ridiculousness of the idea of using a gravitational singularity as a weapon in personal combat.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 29 mai 2010 - 09:35 .

[TheSixthghoul]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Sixth Goul wrote...
It's still called Warming to Miranda, how unfortunate. Miranda: Mass Effects first and only true heroine is clearly better and rightly deserved. It makes a statement words can no describe of how awesome Miranda is and how she should have been on the cover of Mass Effect 1 regardless, if she was in it.

You might PM DarthReavus and try to convince him. 
You'd have to do it without my support, though, because I think your title is too over-the-top.

I assume you mean Emailing him/her, I so did like Thursday night. I think Darth is dead killed by Jar Jar or maybe kidnapped by some fantical support group:? or maybe s/he hasn't seen it yet.

And thank you its suppost to be over the top,making everone else jealousy and over time humble.