43796 réponses à ce sujet

[shinobi602]

Morning everyone. What's...going on here? Something happen that I miss? Looks like a couple people are upset.


Edit: Kraidy, yea I finished the video. It's here: www.youtube.com/watch

[Prudii Aden]

jtav wrote...

I just had the weirdest plot bunny. Objectively speaking, Shepards's pick up lines are not that great, and Renegade Shep should frighten small children. What if Samara decided s/he wasn't a good choice to entrap Morinth, and Miranda went instead? I don't know why I find the idea so appealing, but I suspect it has something to do with wanting to see more of her femme fatale side..

Interesting idea jtav. I'm not sure Miri would have quite the same 'spark' as Shepard. She can be a bit too logical and emotionally guarded, and whether that would mess things up, I don't know.

[KalenNighteyes]

Blasphemy! If Tali got stickied then its because SOMEONE at BioWare likes Tali!!! How dare he!



I agree with Darth! We must Assemble! We must be stickied as well!!

[kraidy1117]

shinobi602 wrote...

Morning everyone. What's...going on here? Something happen that I miss? Looks like a couple people are upset.


Edit: Kraidy, yea I finished the video. It's here: www.youtube.com/watch

Lets just say something happened and alot of peopel are pissed and even left this thread. Anyways good job with the video

[Andysilv]

Valmy wrote...

Wait the Tali thread got stickied? Why does it need to be stickied? It certainly never had any problem staying on the front page.

Yeah, WTF? I hadn't even noticed until now.

[Prudii Aden]

shinobi602 wrote...

Morning everyone. What's...going on here? Something happen that I miss? Looks like a couple people are upset.


Edit: Kraidy, yea I finished the video. It's here: www.youtube.com/watch

Good video Shin - having seen the film you took it from, I can see it happening.

[kraidy1117]

andysilv87 wrote...

Valmy wrote...

Wait the Tali thread got stickied? Why does it need to be stickied? It certainly never had any problem staying on the front page.

Yeah, WTF? I hadn't even noticed until now.

I think Bioware isp laying favs

[DarthReavus]

Hang on Mavi...



What the hell? Seriously mate can we not divide this thread even more than it already is? We need to be striking a blow for Mirimaniac unity and not parting ways over what is, in the grand scheme of the universe, an insignificant argument.

[Annjul666]

Yeah Mav, i am leaving too, for a while.. if they want to discuss only Miri as they did over 900 pages, i think im done here. No fun, means no fun.



Find even one little thing we hadnt talked about her... id really like to see that.

Well, if you are now want to stay only on topic, i guess i will be off. Nothing for me here to add about her.

See ya later. maybe.



ps. So, who is eager to create OT group? it can be the most interesting group then, if this topic now is going to stay serious and discussitive..

[Lareit]

Valmy wrote...

Wait the Tali thread got stickied? Why does it need to be stickied? It certainly never had any problem staying on the front page.

I presume it less to do about Tali and more to due to test how large the thread can grow before it disrupts the forum.

The first tali thread newly blew up at the 700 post mark. Double posts, triple posts, invis post, phantom pages, exceedlingly long delays before access to new pages was allowed, to name a few of the things that started to occur around then. Yet the new one has been smooth the entire time.

[DarthReavus]

shinobi602 wrote...

Morning everyone. What's...going on here? Something happen that I miss? Looks like a couple people are upset.


Edit: Kraidy, yea I finished the video. It's here: www.youtube.com/watch

Morning shin.  The family has had a bit of a falling out while you've been away.  Your new video is also now in the OP.

[kraidy1117]

Annjul666 wrote...

Yeah Mav, i am leaving too, for a while.. if they want to discuss only Miri as they did over 900 pages, i think im done here. No fun, means no fun.

Find even one little thing we hadnt talked about her... id really like to see that.
Well, if you are now want to stay only on topic, i guess i will be off. Nothing for me here to add about her.
See ya later. maybe.

ps. So, who is eager to create OT group? it can be the most interesting group then, if this topic now is going to stay serious and discussitive..

wow you do know there is so much we can say about Miri right? The tali boards are worse then this.

[Annjul666]

Valmy wrote...

Wait the Tali thread got stickied? Why does it need to be stickied? It certainly never had any problem staying on the front page.

WTF.... **** them!    BW just crossed the line....

[KalenNighteyes]

... Do I need to post this again? I think I do. We MUST unite!

[kraidy1117]

Kalen it's no point, hell I even think the 600 page party is not even going to happen now.

[Valmy]

Ieldra2 wrote...

It's long ago that I posted a wall of text. That has to be remedied. This is an attempt to elaborate on my hypothesis that Miranda’s detached demeanor is, as a rule, not a mask.

Why the "ice queen melting" stereotype does not apply to Miranda

The meaning of "I’m not looking for a friend"

There can be no doubt that Miranda is neither incapable of emotionally connecting to people, nor is she unwilling to do so on rare occasions. She loves her sister, she cares about Niket and eventually comes to care about Shepard. But I still think when she says "I’m not looking for a friend", this is her genuine attitude, her first reaction to someone she doesn’t know. As a rule, she prefers to keep her distance, and when she does not, it’s a notable exception. To substantiate that, I’ll have to elaborate a bit.

We’re all motivated by emotions. In fact, what we feel constitutes our will, and if we didn’t feel anything we would be completely unable to act. At any time, there are different emotions at work in us, and they sometimes conflict. Here are a few things I can see driving Miranda:

(1) Test herself and her limits. Achieve the seemingly impossible.
(2) Keep control of her life, and herself.
(3) Protect the people she loves.
(4) Prove herself as a human being.
(5) And eventually, explore her relationship with Shepard.

All of these present interesting aspects of her personality. Yes, she eventually comes to love Shepard, but that is not what defines her. All of these aspects together define her.

Well she openly admits and sees both her connection to her sister and her connection to Niket as mistakes and weaknesses.  I don't, I actually think they are the source of her strength but she bends over backwards to try to keep herself free of any personal connections which people can then use to control her potentially.

The problematic "Ice Queen" designation

In most of the arguments promoting the hypothesis that her detached demeanor is a mask, I see the underlying assumption that some of these drives are more valid than others, in particular, the assumption that the drive to connect to people is more valid, more valuable, than whatever drives you to keep your distance. I challenge that assumption. From here, I argue from the assumption that there’s no one emotion, no one drive more valid than another (against our intuitions, this does extend to “negative” passions, but since the explanation would go too far OT and it isn’t important for the issues, I’ll omit that aspect here).

Looking at the drive to keep your distance from someone, two immediate reasons come to mind why you might want to do so: you fear to make yourself vulnerable, and you don’t want to deal with the complications inevitably resulting from any closer connection. I really shouldn’t have to say this, but making yourself vulnerable is not a virtue as such. With regard to love, it’s a necessary evil, but it’s completely reasonable to limit the number of people who can cause you emotional pain. As for complications, given the list above, it should come as no surprise that Miranda doesn’t need any more complications than she already has. Also, the wish, the preference to avoid emotional complications is no less valid than any other drive.

For these reasons, I reject the “Ice Queen” designation and all its inferred meanings and value judgments. Instead, I’ll be talking about keeping one’s distance and a generally detached attitude with regard to people, exceptions notwithstanding.

Perhaps we should then talk about what exactly an Ice Queen is.  To me the very definition of an Ice Queen is somebody who protects herself through masking her emotions.  Miranda's decision to do this are perfectly reasonable, even if I disagree with the primary motivations, but that does not make her less of an Ice Queen to me.  She avoids personal connections because she regards them as weaknesses that compromise her mission....but on the flipside she needs those connections to keep her grounded enough to be effective.  That is why she works so hard to protect the ones she has and protect herself from gaining new ones.  Likewise why she begs Shepard not to die later on as she falls for him.

Why I think Miranda is, as a rule, at peace with her detached attitude

In short, I think so because that in those cases when there is a conflict, we get to see it if we pay close attention. Sometimes not even that is needed. We see a conflict, for instance, when she watches her sister – she wants to keep apart, but she also wants to connect. It doesn’t even need the conversation options to make you see that, just watch her face and you know what’s going on. You see the same in the romance conversations – she admits that she’s attracted to Shepard, and it’s also clear that it’s on more than one level, but you still see the drive to keep her distance at work.

As opposed to that, consider her confrontation with Jack. She appears confident and composed, completely unruffled by Jack’s insistence and unmoved by her threats. It’s quite the same when she rebuffs Shepard in Lazarus Station. When she admits that she was the one who leaked the information about the Hugo Gernsback after Jacob’s loyalty mission, it appears that she’s severing an old connection by discharging her promise, whatever that was.

Lastly, consider the situation when you speak with her about her optimizations and how it makes her feel she hasn’t achieved anything by herself. She trusts Shepard with that, but she still talks calmly and composedly about it. It becomes clear that it’s something she’s in the process of dealing with, and quite capable at dealing with it on her own, even while appreciating the help Shepard gives her. This means she’s not only detached from others, but can also detach herself from her own emotions in order to deal with them. This "dealing with them" might include following them, but then again, it might not.

I conclude that for Miranda, in most cases the advantages of keeping her distance outweigh any possible benefits of an emotional connection (I’m tempted to say “entanglement”). She’s neither uncaring nor a walled up container waiting to explode in a paroxysm of passion, she’s just very selective in her connections ("I settle for nothing but the best" is a good indicator for this attitude) and otherwise driven by another passion: the passion to keep control of her own life. This is a valid and reasonable attitude, not a flaw. I think she acknowledges that to herself, just as she acknowledges her attraction to Shepard quite readily – she is smart, she knows what she’s feeling and deals with in one way or the other. I have written in what’s become known as the "Miranda Manifest" that the love between her and Shepard is not about need. I stand by that. Miranda would say "Look, I may be drawn to you like on a rubber band, but I still decide. It’s not fate. I would be able to live without you, and one decision is not better or worse than the other." This quality is what makes her interesting and admirable, and makes her decision to explore her relationship with Shepard all the more valuable.

I tend to agree basically.  I do think she was a bit taken aback by the intensity of her attraction to Shepard and her fear of it...as it would make her vulnerable if something were to happen to him.  However, yes she could live without him.  In fact I think she, on some level, hopes Shepard will reject her and spare her the baggage.  She admits to loving him while at the same point pointing out why it is a bad idea.  Telling her you will love her anyway breaks down the last of her defenses.

At least that is my view.

Nice post by the way.

[DarthReavus]

There'll be a party of a different kind I think - a funeral.

[Prudii Aden]

Here's a suggestion guys - how about we take 24 hours, step away from the situation and chill. Right now it seems emotions are overpowering common sense.

[shinobi602]

DarthReavus wrote...

Morning shin.  The family has had a bit of a falling out while you've been away. .

Whoa whoa, who is leaving? What is going on here and why. Someone fill me in, we can not have people leaving the thread Darth...guys....

We have always stuck together.

Modifié par shinobi602, 08 mars 2010 - 04:38 .

[Valmy]

Maviarab wrote...

Its very insignificant I agree completely....but when its been dropped and certain individuals can't leave it dropped....whats the feckin point...seriously...the very people maoning baout it are the ones staying OT talking about whatn they are moaning about...I mean...can you see the irony there?

Some dont want sillyness...
Some dont want Chuck...
Some dont want something else...

If its Miranda and nothing but, this thread willl be dead by the middle of the week. I'm happy to stay, just seems a very hostile place at the moment and ultimatly, its a discussion thread on a game forum, not someones personal site.

/rant over....had enough of it.

We have a great little community in this thread full of people I really respect and enjoy.  Frankly I would have a good time talking to you guys about anything.  It would be a shame to throw the proverbial baby out with the bathwater.

[Annjul666]

Maviarab wrote...

Its very insignificant I agree completely....but when its been dropped and certain individuals can't leave it dropped....whats the feckin point...seriously...the very people maoning baout it are the ones staying OT talking about whatn they are moaning about...I mean...can you see the irony there?

Some dont want sillyness...
Some dont want Chuck...
Some dont want something else...

If its Miranda and nothing but, this thread willl be dead by the middle of the week. I'm happy to stay, just seems a very hostile place at the moment and ultimatly, its a discussion thread on a game forum, not someones personal site.

/rant over....had enough of it.

same here.
maybe tomorrow will be better day for us... i ve got enough for now ....  go play AC2. see ya around... somewhere.
PM me sometimes, Mav, key?

[Prudii Aden]

@Ieldra - very well thought out post. Not much I can say, to counterbalance/oppose it, really.

[KalenNighteyes]

Good god guys. I was trying to help bury this matter and get us to move on. I'll come back on the thread when this discussion has died down. I didn't want to open the wound again. Drama is NOT a good thing. I'll come back in here later and see if this has been dropped. I'm sorry, but I despise drama.



See you guys a little later...

[kraidy1117]

Sigh I say we just take a break guys, we all need to chill out.