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[screwoffreg]

The very notion that Liara is "not darker" or innocent because "she had to do it" or "she doesn't like it so it doesn't count" is a convenient way to hold onto a more naive image of a character we like.

The universe, and the ME universe in particular, is presented as a very harsh and oftentimes ugly place. Whether through environment or choice, the pernicious ways of "the world" cannot be ignored. Do people get a pass because they "have to do it"? The Shadow Broker "has to" maintain his/its business which took so long to build, so is working with the Collectors/Reapers something it can be judged for that harshly? What of Saren? If MOST of his actions were the result of indoctrination, does that give him a pass? The Genophage was justified as a "necessity" and has devastated the Krogan, etc, etc, etc.

Whether Liara "likes" being an info broker is irrelevent. The nature of the work, at its core, is full of cloak and dagger. It cannot be said to be outright evil, if one even believes in such a thing, but to pretend it allows one to maintain a virginal form is foolish.

The moment we start asking questions is the moment we lose our innocence. The fact Liara admits to not liking what she does, the fact she questions her own work, is sign enough that it is of an unsavory nature whether we want to admit it or not. The final question is then do we accept Liara, as a symbol of the galaxy itself, for what she is now, not what we want her to be? Or do we rage against the unfairness of life itself?

Modifié par screwoffreg, 06 mai 2010 - 10:07 .

[OrbitalWings]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

Nah, I'm the same. If they flub up Liara's character completely, it's not a case of moving on to a new LI and growing attached to other characters. I'll just switch off the console and be done with Mass Effect. I'd then go and play Metal Gear or Zelda or something, but would still be extremely pissed off over what happened.

I know that when I finish ME3 - whether it's due to the end of the game or the ruining of characters - the first thing I'll do is a drawing.

What that image will show, who knows?

[screwoffreg]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

That's kind of a point I was trying to make, screw. What I'm saying is that Garrus seems to get a free pass, despite the fact that he's even worse than Liara supposedly is, and that Liara gets all of this flak and mud thrown at her when her actions are not even half as bad as what Garrus' are.

I'm not questioning that Liara is in a bad predicament at all, that much is obvious. She's having to act like a person she clearly isn't, and hates being. The old "an inherently good person in an inherently bad situation" arc is in effect here. Liara is obviously alot more jaded and cynical, and has lost alot of her naivette and worldliness. I think that's pretty much indisputable. I happen to feel though that she's maintained her core personality of compassion and empathy, and that she hasn't allowed herself to compromise her own morals and principals in order to accomplish what she sees as a necessity.

Interestingly enough, it makes it difficult to judge the Shadow Broker harshly.  In ME 1, he is presented as largely neutral and even "helps" a few people "good" people with their problems.  If all he was considering was business and profit, and had no ideas of the Reapers true intentions, then he is amoral, yes, but hardly a great evil that has to be purged from the galaxy.  If he is indoctrinated, which is a possibility, then that reduces him to the status of a mere puppet, a tool.  Liara's quest is then robbed of a lot of its nobility unless it is shown that the SB is TRULY doing something out of sorts.

[bjdbwea]

screwoffreg wrote...

The final question is then do we accept Liara, as a symbol of the galaxy itself, for what she is now, not what we want her to be? Or do we rage against the unfairness of life itself?

No, but against the unfairness of BioWare. I don't get this desire for "dark" stories or "grey" characters. Of course life is complicated, and often there is no happy end, but what's wrong with having it in a book / movie / game? You can always argue that trashing a character is "only realistic", but what's wrong with not doing it? What's wrong with wanting an ME 2 where Shepard continues the quest for stopping the reapers, with his/her "true" LI at his/her side? Of course you can still add some "rockyness" to the relationship, but you don't need to obliterate the characters for that.

That said, I could live with the change in Liara's character and role, if - and it always comes back to this - the writing were at least halfway decent. It isn't though. And if you can't be bothered to invest the necessary effort, then rather stick with the established character design, as that reduces the required effort.

[screwoffreg]

bjdbwea wrote...

screwoffreg wrote...

The final question is then do we accept Liara, as a symbol of the galaxy itself, for what she is now, not what we want her to be? Or do we rage against the unfairness of life itself?

No, but against the unfairness of BioWare. I don't get this desire for "dark" stories or "grey" characters. Of course life is complicated, and often there is no happy end, but what's wrong with having it in a book / movie / game? You can always argue that trashing a character is "only realistic", but what's wrong with not doing it? What's wrong with wanting an ME 2 where Shepard continues the quest for stopping the reapers, with his/her "true" LI at his/her side? Of course you can still add some "rockyness" to the relationship, but you don't need to obliterate the characters for that.

That said, I could live with the change in Liara's character and role, if - and it always comes back to this - the writing were at least halfway decent. It isn't though. And if you can't be bothered to invest the necessary effort, then rather stick with the established character design, as that reduces the required effort.

Your last point I absolutely agree with.  I think any sort of shift in Liara's personality would be far easier to take if it was well justified.  I imagine we will get some emotional scenes in DLC/Expansion/ME 3, but overall the entire affair might just be glossed over as Bioware moves steadily onward.  The handling of ME 1 characters in general was just badly done, outside of Wrex perhaps.

[OrbitalWings]

To be honest, I'd find Liara's personality shift much easier to swallow if there was at least SOME evidence that she still wants to be with Shepard - and as we've said many times before, this is due simply to the handling of the ME1 LIs.

It's much easier to hear "I've become an information broker - I'm involved in very shady goings on and I've had to kill a fair few people, but I still love you and want to be with you."

Than hearing "I've become an information broker - I'm involved in very shady goings on and I've had to kill a fair few people, and no I won't go with you on the Normandy."

And I think a lot of people attack Liara's apparant personality shift because they blame that for her coldness towards Shepard, rather than the game's writing.

Modifié par Metal-Dragon-Kiryu, 06 mai 2010 - 10:37 .

[bjdbwea]

I agree, but I see Liara's general personality and her romance as two different things. Her shift in personality was badly and lazily written and presented. The ignoring of the romance is a second failure. That's not reduced to her, you also get no acknowledgement from Joker or TIM, like you get in the case of the Virmire survivor. It's two separate big and in my opinion inexcusable mistakes the writers made.

[Noxis6]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

That's kind of a point I was trying to make, screw. What I'm saying is that Garrus seems to get a free pass, despite the fact that he's even worse than Liara supposedly is, and that Liara gets all of this flak and mud thrown at her when her actions are not even half as bad as what Garrus' are.

I think the difference between Garrus and Liara is,well how do I put this,what Garrus does is basicly still more or less true to his character I would also say that in case you paragoned him,you could still say hes trying his best to live up to Shepards example while doing it in a very screwed up way,but then again he was always hotheaded and may lack some qualities a paragon has so overall as I said it feels natural
As for Liara well there are basicly the points that come up very often in this thread,the lack of explaination of her change,the fact that it seemingly comes out of nowhere and that if just feels unnatural to what we had in ME1
And also if you compare their jobs Garrus is pretty lets say straightfoward with his work he killed a bunch of [pick a color] mercs thats that,while Liara seems a lot more lets say shady,always hiding something,blame the writing for it but she does come across relativly unsympathetic,might be because they wanted to push the old Lis aside but I guess there lies the problem

[OrbitalWings]

Thing is......it's very easy to turn Liara's personality shift into a good thing...

[Noxis6]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

Noxis6 wrote...

Liara seems a lot more lets say shady,always hiding something,

Not really, if there's one thing that Liara is to Shepard in her ME2 scenes, it's that she's very honest and forthright about what she's doing, why she's doing it, and how she's doing it. She tells you that she's been working as an information broker, she tells you that she's trying to off the Shadow Broker and with some persuasion on an emotional level, she tells you exactly what happened between her and the Shadow Broker. She never keeps this information secret from Shepard, but only hopes that Shepard trusts her as a friend that what she is doing is right.

She's never secretive to Shepard, Liara tells her exactly what the situation is.

Maybe it wasnt the right choice of words,but I guess my point is compared to Garrus she comes across really unsympathetic,I mean we all know the Liara scene it starts with her quoting her mother and mostly goes downhill from that point on,thats the problem
Overall we all know its a complete mess and some stuff in the comic even contradicts the game,like she says she barely escaped the SB and then you see her plowing through the SBs base with her biotics and not even getting a scratch and also her motives for revenge are kind of weak,yeah I get Feron and yes selling Shepards corpse wasnt a nice thing to do,but starting an all out Vendetta just for that

[Fiannawolf]

I got that dialog on my first playthru with Kristina Shepard, cause she cares, she cares alot!

[Noxis6]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...
Yep, Liara comes across as vague and confusing, until you get that magical, incredibly easy to miss dialogue. Then everything becomes alot clearer, and you're given alot of insight into her suffering.

Have you seen the comments section for the YouTube video "Reason why Liara is hardened"? So many viewers watch the video and then say "Oh crap, I never got this dialogue choice before! Now I feel bad for what I did to her..."

I think that dialogue path helps to shine some light on just what is really going on with Liara, and is probably the most important piece of dialogue you can have with her in the game.

I agree that dialogue helps somewhat,but doesnt change the main issue that the whole change overall seems so unnatural,while with the rest of the ME1 squad you can still say "Yes,thats Wrex/Garrus/Tali" while in Liaras case the initial reaction is more like "Who is this person?",I would admit in Ash/Kaidans case it is kind of a similar reaction although at least the retained their loyality to the Alliance for what its worth and beyond that they are somewhat saved by their short screentime
But to come back to the Liara problem,as said it feels unnatural and it feels so uncalled for,there were other ways to have this character develop and grow that were more natural,like the Ilos scenario I posted a few pages ago,you could still show off more confindence or determination in that,while I dont consider myself a good writer it at least would have felt more natural to me
But maybe the whole Prothean archealogist thing just had to go,because well the whole Cypher thing was also thrown out of the window so why not everything else<_<