50907 réponses à ce sujet

[bjdbwea]

Driveninhifi wrote...

I think it would have been kind of cool to have your ME1 LI be the one who gets the body. Of course, they need to cover the case where there is no LI, and Liara is definitely at least enamored with Shepard, if not totally in love.

Yeah, very good idea. Then later let them be abducted by the collectors, with the chance to rescue them in the end of course. There you go: Found a proper reason to keep them out of the crew, and added a great deal of personal involvement for Shepard and in extension the players. And if their promise is true that the ME 1 LIs will be back with an important role in ME 3, you have already set the ground for that too. You would of course lose the chance to portray a "rocky relationship", but that idea was always unnecessary anyway, even more so of course when done as short and unbelievable as it is now.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 03 mars 2010 - 11:10 .

[JPfanner]

Yeled wrote...

Driveninhifi wrote...

I do think they probably need to give players an option to romance Liara in ME3 even if she wasn't the ME1 love interest. She pretty obviously would be open to it happening.

As much as I agree, they'd have to go in and write new dialogue for such to occur.  Which means that the rest of us who romanced her in ME1 will very likely get a much more shallow romance.

I'm thinking that she will be available as a new romance.  Tali is available for people just starting with ME2. With that precendence, with Liara having the comics role, and her having a fundamental and central role as a squadmate right from the opening credits of ME3 (praying for it be so), I imagine they'll make her available for ME2 and ME3 people.
It would definitely be annoying if the "reward" for remaining faithful ended up being LESS dialog with Liara than someone who hadn't though.

[WilliamShatner]

Sakhalin wrote...

I think Liara can only be "romanced" if she was already romanced to begin with. And maybe she will have a special power only available to those who were faithful to her too, as a "reward".

To be honest, I'm hoping our "reward" for staying faithful is a lot more than one power to be used in combat!

[Sakhalin]

WilliamShatner wrote...

Sakhalin wrote...

I think Liara can only be "romanced" if she was already romanced to begin with. And maybe she will have a special power only available to those who were faithful to her too, as a "reward".

To be honest, I'm hoping our "reward" for staying faithful is a lot more than one power to be used in combat!

Oh yeah DEFINITELY, but I can see the extra loyal only power as a reward in ADDITION to some...other stuff. XD

[WilliamShatner]

bjdbwea wrote...

Driveninhifi wrote...

I think it would have been kind of cool to have your ME1 LI be the one who gets the body. Of course, they need to cover the case where there is no LI, and Liara is definitely at least enamored with Shepard, if not totally in love.

Yeah, very good idea. Then later let them be abducted by the collectors, with the chance to rescue them in the end of course. There you go: Found a proper reason to keep them out of the crew, and added a great deal of personal involvement for Shepard and in extension the players. And if their promise is true that the ME 1 LIs will be back with an important role in ME 3, you have already set the ground for that too. You would of course lose the chance to portray a "rocky relationship", but that idea was always unnecessary anyway, even more so of course when done as short and unbelievable as it is now.

The consensus of speculation before ME2 was really was just that - that Ashley and Kaidan at least would have been collected by the collectors.  Yeah, it would have still stank that they were relegated to cameos but at least it would have given Shepard even more personal motivation!  That was the least they could do, and they didn't do it.

[Blameless77]

WilliamShatner wrote...

Sakhalin wrote...

I think Liara can only be "romanced" if she was already romanced to begin with. And maybe she will have a special power only available to those who were faithful to her too, as a "reward".

To be honest, I'm hoping our "reward" for staying faithful is a lot more than one power to be used in combat!

Given how important the romance aspect is to so many on these forums, I would hope Bioware would try to flesh out romance interaction in ME3. Unique dialogue (especially to those who stayed faithful), bonuses for taking your LI with you on missions, maybe some kind of interaction that happens off the Normandy for once. I realize Mass Effect isn't a dating sim (and I wouldn't want it to be), but the "six brief conversations followed by intimate scene" formula could be improved upon I think.

[WilliamShatner]

Blameless77 wrote...

WilliamShatner wrote...

Sakhalin wrote...

I think Liara can only be "romanced" if she was already romanced to begin with. And maybe she will have a special power only available to those who were faithful to her too, as a "reward".

To be honest, I'm hoping our "reward" for staying faithful is a lot more than one power to be used in combat!

Given how important the romance aspect is to so many on these forums, I would hope Bioware would try to flesh out romance interaction in ME3. Unique dialogue (especially to those who stayed faithful), bonuses for taking your LI with you on missions, maybe some kind of interaction that happens off the Normandy for once. I realize Mass Effect isn't a dating sim (and I wouldn't want it to be), but the "six brief conversations followed by intimate scene" formula could be improved upon I think.

Unfortunetly it's be a long time since BioWare's relationships have gone beyond "boy meets girl" (or girl meets girl, and sometimes boy meets boy) - BGII to be precise.  It's fine in regards to JE, NWN and DA as they weren't never announced as an ongoing trilogy, but playing ME1 you see what you are doing as the first steps in something larger, and by did ME2 drop the drop in that regard.  By planning this out as a trilogy from the go BioWare really had a chance to develop these relationships in to something that blows everything else, even BGII, out of the water, which is was makes it so disappointing.

After completing ME1 for the first time one of the conversations I was anticipating early in ME2 was a "we do we go from here" conversation with Liara.  Sadly that will never be.

Modifié par WilliamShatner, 03 mars 2010 - 11:28 .

[Azint]

I liked Liara, so I will support this.

[Nozybidaj]

bjdbwea wrote...

Driveninhifi wrote...

I think it would have been kind of cool to have your ME1 LI be the one who gets the body. Of course, they need to cover the case where there is no LI, and Liara is definitely at least enamored with Shepard, if not totally in love.

Yeah, very good idea. Then later let them be abducted by the collectors, with the chance to rescue them in the end of course. There you go: Found a proper reason to keep them out of the crew, and added a great deal of personal involvement for Shepard and in extension the players. And if their promise is true that the ME 1 LIs will be back with an important role in ME 3, you have already set the ground for that too. You would of course lose the chance to portray a "rocky relationship", but that idea was always unnecessary anyway, even more so of course when done as short and unbelievable as it is now.

Agreed all around there were plenty of opportunities to make sure they survived while including them in the story.  The "rocky relationship" part was not only BS to start with (there is no relationship in ME2) but uneccessary anyway.  Its just something to fall back on when you aren't creative enough to come up with an actual continuation and progression of the romance.

Really no matter what they do with expansions and dlc not including the LI's in the sequel will always be a black mark for BW.  They used to be one of the few companies I would always pre-order for without question.  I've lost enough respect for their ability as story tellers at this point though that anything they produce in the future I think I'll wait for reviews and fan feedback first.

[Driveninhifi]

Actually, I think the most interesting thing would be seeing how the crew reacts to the love interest. Say Liara rejoins: the crew obviously knows Shepard loves her, and also knows she was the one who recovered the body. They'd know Shepard would go to great lengths for the entire crew, but they'd also have to realize the the two lovers probably mean more to each other than the crew means to each of them.

Certain characters might resent that. Other ones would be cool with it. Who reacts, and how? That would be a cool thing to explore. Have the LI move into the Captain's cabin. Have the generic crew members make comments and suddenly freeze up once Shepard walks nearby.

More personal interactions on missions would be neat as well. Rage when the LI falls in combat? (I dunno, that's kind of cheesy, actually.)

[JPfanner]

Blameless77 wrote...

WilliamShatner wrote...

Sakhalin wrote...

I think Liara can only be "romanced" if she was already romanced to begin with. And maybe she will have a special power only available to those who were faithful to her too, as a "reward".

To be honest, I'm hoping our "reward" for staying faithful is a lot more than one power to be used in combat!

Given how important the romance aspect is to so many on these forums, I would hope Bioware would try to flesh out romance interaction in ME3. Unique dialogue (especially to those who stayed faithful), bonuses for taking your LI with you on missions, maybe some kind of interaction that happens off the Normandy for once. I realize Mass Effect isn't a dating sim (and I wouldn't want it to be), but the "six brief conversations followed by intimate scene" formula could be improved upon I think.

Seriously, the whole "sex before climatic battle" scenario has gone beyond cliche.  I want a relationship that celebrates the future and sharing that with someone special.  Not another "We might die in two hours, so let's get it on." near the end of the game.
As much as I enjoyed the intimate encounter with Liara in ME1, I felt so bad for her.  Joker says, "Five minutes until the Mu Relay." and Liara is still lying in bed naked while you're sitting on your desk dressed and ready to go.  If they're going to put in something like that then they can at least have some snuggly cuddling dialog at the end rather than, "Ready, Go, Stop."

[Nozybidaj]

Yeled wrote...

JPfanner wrote...

Debi-Tage wrote...
Yes, and do you notice that nobody aknowledges your relationship if Liara is your LI on the new Normandy? Both TIM and Kelly ask your "personal relationships" and your feelings about either Ash or Kaiden after Horizon, which really annoyed me because it was almost like I was forced to aknowledge something that was never there for me with them (I have always been with Liara)

Yeah, this is really why I hold off on trying to figure out the Liara scene too deeply except as an intellectual exercise. There is NOTHING in the entire game about the relationship except a kiss and a picture on your desk. People come up with creative and consistent theories to explain things and they do a really good job. A much better job than what came on those two dvds.
Ultimately everyone is hoping that the DLC fixes what was broken. DLC should be about additional optional content that expands on the world or offers new and interesting playstyles. It shouldn't be like buying a novel and then months later getting chapters of the story that were just plain torn out of the book.
What in game explanation is there for Liara, Tali, and Garrus not saying anything to each other? There just isn't one. I use that and the "only kiss and picture" as my benchmark for how much creative thought and development time went into the scene on Illium.

I think that's pretty fair, to be frank.  A story should stand on its own merit, not need endless speculation to figure out how to fill in the holes they left.

At the very least Tali or Garrus should say something about Liara, Ash, or Kaiden if you romanced one of them in ME1 and are now romancing Tali or Garrus.  Wouldn't they have noticed your previous relationship?  Do they not care at all?

Agreed, all this speculation and theorycrafting is great and all, but none of it is actually in the game.  The devs really failed to tell any sort of story in regards to any of this.  It is all made up in out heads, even if it is good.

[WilliamShatner]

JPfanner wrote...

Blameless77 wrote...

WilliamShatner wrote...

Sakhalin wrote...

I think Liara can only be "romanced" if she was already romanced to begin with. And maybe she will have a special power only available to those who were faithful to her too, as a "reward".

To be honest, I'm hoping our "reward" for staying faithful is a lot more than one power to be used in combat!

Given how important the romance aspect is to so many on these forums, I would hope Bioware would try to flesh out romance interaction in ME3. Unique dialogue (especially to those who stayed faithful), bonuses for taking your LI with you on missions, maybe some kind of interaction that happens off the Normandy for once. I realize Mass Effect isn't a dating sim (and I wouldn't want it to be), but the "six brief conversations followed by intimate scene" formula could be improved upon I think.

Seriously, the whole "sex before climatic battle" scenario has gone beyond cliche.  I want a relationship that celebrates the future and sharing that with someone special.  Not another "We might die in two hours, so let's get it on." near the end of the game.
As much as I enjoyed the intimate encounter with Liara in ME1, I felt so bad for her.  Joker says, "Five minutes until the Mu Relay." and Liara is still lying in bed naked while you're sitting on your desk dressed and ready to go.  If they're going to put in something like that then they can at least have some snuggly cuddling dialog at the end rather than, "Ready, Go, Stop."

Another reason to hate Jackass.

[Driveninhifi]

Nozybidaj wrote...

Really no matter what they do with expansions and dlc not including the LI's in the sequel will always be a black mark for BW.  They used to be one of the few companies I would always pre-order for without question.  I've lost enough respect for their ability as story tellers at this point though that anything they produce in the future I think I'll wait for reviews and fan feedback first.

That's kind of harsh. I agree that the ME1 LIs were handled poorly. They could have handled it much better - make Ash/Kaidan incapacitated by the attack. Actually do Liara's character development in game + give Shep natural responses.
It does feel like they got too caught up on the "rocky relationship!" angle at the expense of making things feel natural and genuine (though I do feel Ash/Kaidan's initial reactions are good. It's just the excuse to keep them off the normandy that sucks).

As a whole though, there's a ton of very good stuff in ME2. Mordin is very well done, for example. There's a LOT of stuff that calls back to your actions previously. Think about all the permutations - they did a pretty impressive thing here, something that no one has really done before. I was much more disappointed with Dragon Age than ME2, as really the ME1 LIs are the only weak part of the game.

[WilliamShatner]

Nozybidaj wrote...

Yeled wrote...

JPfanner wrote...

Debi-Tage wrote...
Yes, and do you notice that nobody aknowledges your relationship if Liara is your LI on the new Normandy? Both TIM and Kelly ask your "personal relationships" and your feelings about either Ash or Kaiden after Horizon, which really annoyed me because it was almost like I was forced to aknowledge something that was never there for me with them (I have always been with Liara)

Yeah, this is really why I hold off on trying to figure out the Liara scene too deeply except as an intellectual exercise. There is NOTHING in the entire game about the relationship except a kiss and a picture on your desk. People come up with creative and consistent theories to explain things and they do a really good job. A much better job than what came on those two dvds.
Ultimately everyone is hoping that the DLC fixes what was broken. DLC should be about additional optional content that expands on the world or offers new and interesting playstyles. It shouldn't be like buying a novel and then months later getting chapters of the story that were just plain torn out of the book.
What in game explanation is there for Liara, Tali, and Garrus not saying anything to each other? There just isn't one. I use that and the "only kiss and picture" as my benchmark for how much creative thought and development time went into the scene on Illium.

I think that's pretty fair, to be frank.  A story should stand on its own merit, not need endless speculation to figure out how to fill in the holes they left.

At the very least Tali or Garrus should say something about Liara, Ash, or Kaiden if you romanced one of them in ME1 and are now romancing Tali or Garrus.  Wouldn't they have noticed your previous relationship?  Do they not care at all?

Agreed, all this speculation and theorycrafting is great and all, but none of it is actually in the game.  The devs really failed to tell any sort of story in regards to any of this.  It is all made up in out heads, even if it is good.

Don't forget Dr. Chakwas.  At the very least she could have said "I prefered when there was an asari living in the back of my medilab" after you recruit Legion.

[Nozybidaj]

Yeled wrote...

Driveninhifi wrote...

I do think they probably need to give players an option to romance Liara in ME3 even if she wasn't the ME1 love interest. She pretty obviously would be open to it happening.

As much as I agree, they'd have to go in and write new dialogue for such to occur.  Which means that the rest of us who romanced her in ME1 will very likely get a much more shallow romance.

Very much agreed.  They already have 9 romances to cover.  If we start throwing different variations into the mix it just becomes too much.  With the number of characters in the game now they are all going to suffer further development.

If I thought BW could pull it off, I'd be all for it, but as it is now you should only get to romance in ME3 whatever romance you have active at the end of ME2.  If you didn't romance Liara in ME1 and/or started a new romance in ME2 you shouldn't be able to romance her in ME3.

If you have no romance by the end of ME2 maybe one of the new characters will be available.

If each romance starts having to have 3 or 4 different variations to it none of them are going to be any good.

[Nozybidaj]

Driveninhifi wrote...

Yeah, but how do you logically allow that? Obsessively searching for someone's body and giving them to terrorists for a chance to see them again is pretty intense. It would be kind of disingenuous to ignore the fact that she's either a creepy stalker or feels something pretty close to love for the Commander. I suppose you could argue that Shepard really is her only friend, but that's the level of friendship that tends to develop into something more.

Well they pretty much threw logic out the window in ME2 already, no reason to turn back now.

[WilliamShatner]

Based on their "stand alone works of fiction" and not wanting to punish new players malarky I'd say there's a 90% chance that there will be new romances in ME3.

[screwoffreg]

How does Shepard end up with so many socially dysfunctional people?

Garrus: Presumed dead, admits no friends.
Liara: Shy loner, no friends
Tali: Nerd, possibly hot. Lady in the streets, freak in the sheets syndrome.
Jack: Wow, what do you even say here?
Miranda: Im rich and hate my father.
Mordin: I contributed to genocide
Samara: I must kill my daughters.
Kelly: Three way? No problem! Let me just zip into my bondage suit...

If Zaeed is the most normal member of your crew, then Jesus you have a problem.

Modifié par screwoffreg, 03 mars 2010 - 11:49 .

[Nozybidaj]

Driveninhifi wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

Really no matter what they do with expansions and dlc not including the LI's in the sequel will always be a black mark for BW.  They used to be one of the few companies I would always pre-order for without question.  I've lost enough respect for their ability as story tellers at this point though that anything they produce in the future I think I'll wait for reviews and fan feedback first.

That's kind of harsh. I agree that the ME1 LIs were handled poorly. They could have handled it much better - make Ash/Kaidan incapacitated by the attack. Actually do Liara's character development in game + give Shep natural responses.
It does feel like they got too caught up on the "rocky relationship!" angle at the expense of making things feel natural and genuine (though I do feel Ash/Kaidan's initial reactions are good. It's just the excuse to keep them off the normandy that sucks).

As a whole though, there's a ton of very good stuff in ME2. Mordin is very well done, for example. There's a LOT of stuff that calls back to your actions previously. Think about all the permutations - they did a pretty impressive thing here, something that no one has really done before. I was much more disappointed with Dragon Age than ME2, as really the ME1 LIs are the only weak part of the game.

I don't think it is harsh at all.  BW likes to toot their own horn about how great story tellers they are and how great their characters are and how attached people get to them, then in the sequel they take those characters and emotional attachments and throw them out the window?  "Oh sorry, just wait two more years and you'll see them again, lolz."

Total amateur hour if you ask me.  BW deserves every bit of critism they get for this.

[Debi-Tage]

speedy111280 wrote...

screwoffreg wrote...

I just wrote two chapters for my Liara story. I am not real confident of them, I am kind of torn as to whether to continue. Let me all know what you think. The title is "The Distance Between Two Stars"

http://www.fanfiction.net/~kanelam

I like it a lot. Great job and you hit on one of my reasons to explain why Shepard is so emotionally dead in ME2. I'd love to read more.

Agreed! Loved it, loved it!

[AndroLeonidas]

Nozybidaj wrote...

Driveninhifi wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

Really no matter what they do with expansions and dlc not including the LI's in the sequel will always be a black mark for BW.  They used to be one of the few companies I would always pre-order for without question.  I've lost enough respect for their ability as story tellers at this point though that anything they produce in the future I think I'll wait for reviews and fan feedback first.

That's kind of harsh. I agree that the ME1 LIs were handled poorly. They could have handled it much better - make Ash/Kaidan incapacitated by the attack. Actually do Liara's character development in game + give Shep natural responses.
It does feel like they got too caught up on the "rocky relationship!" angle at the expense of making things feel natural and genuine (though I do feel Ash/Kaidan's initial reactions are good. It's just the excuse to keep them off the normandy that sucks).

As a whole though, there's a ton of very good stuff in ME2. Mordin is very well done, for example. There's a LOT of stuff that calls back to your actions previously. Think about all the permutations - they did a pretty impressive thing here, something that no one has really done before. I was much more disappointed with Dragon Age than ME2, as really the ME1 LIs are the only weak part of the game.

I don't think it is harsh at all.  BW likes to toot their own horn about how great story tellers they are and how great their characters are and how attached people get to them, then in the sequel they take those characters and emotional attachments and throw them out the window?  "Oh sorry, just wait two more years and you'll see them again, lolz."

Total amateur hour if you ask me.  BW deserves every bit of critism they get for this.

YEAH!!! What he said! I would have used a lot more colorful metaphors!!

[WilliamShatner]

That would be the optimistic way of looking at it. If ME2 taught me anything it's never get my hopes up for anything ever again.

BioWare killed my inner child.

BioWare must notice how hard it would be to even think about writing ME3 properly without fixing everything that was wrong with ME2.

But to fix something you must first recognise that it is broke. Do BioWare realise this? Are they happy with what they did? We are in the minority sadly. The game has received universal praise from critics and the critics that did complained about the carry overs from ME1 were not too passionate about that fact and still gave the game an excellent review.

I imagine ME3 will be the same as ME2. The priority will be making the game self contained and carry overs from the previous games will be on the back page.

Modifié par WilliamShatner, 04 mars 2010 - 12:05 .