50907 réponses à ce sujet

[Nozybidaj]

General Stubbs wrote...

Even the best writers in the world would have a hard time explaining the Liara reunion in ME3 without an expansion in ME2. All BioWare needs to think about is that it is their best interest to create a Liara expansion, one that breaks free of the shooter style ME2 gameplay and gives us a deep emotional story.

Totally agree with this.  There is really not much of a reason to play up the combat portions of any DLC/expansions at this point.  They have a lot of things to set right and loose ends to tie up prior to ME3.  They already drew in their shooter crowd with the core game.  Use the expansion to fulfill the story telling part which is the reason people play BW games in the first place.

[Debi-Tage]

WilliamShatner wrote...

That would be the optimistic way of looking at it. If ME2 taught me anything it's never get my hopes up for anything ever again.

BioWare killed my inner child.

BioWare must notice how hard it would be to even think about writing ME3 properly without fixing everything that was wrong with ME2.

But to fix something you must first recognise that it is broke. Do BioWare realise this? Are they happy with what they did? We are in the minority sadly. The game has received universal praise from critics and the critics that did complained about the carry overs from ME1 were not too passionate about that fact and still gave the game an excellent review.

I imagine ME3 will be the same as ME2. The priority will be making the game self contained and carry overs from the previous games will be on the back page.

I sure hope not! Though it is not my style to be pessimistic, in this regard you may be right. Do any of the devs realize how pissed we are, and do they care? Secondly, I (along with everyone else here) am hoping (beyond hope) for Liara dlc and theorizing over its content, but do we even really know that this will ever happen?
Not to be a downer....

[Driveninhifi]

Certainly the interaction with Liara is the weakest part of the game. By a large margin, I'd say.

There's an old adage I've mentioned before: Show, don't tell.

They don't do this - they _tell_ the player "Liara is angry now," but they don't show her character development. And that's not acceptable - it's never good. The reasons she gives in game don't stand up to analysis for more than like 10 seconds as well.

The second major problem is limiting the player's responses. When writing a novel, you can have conversations flow a certain way to limit what the reader knows. However, this is a role-playing game: you can't justify removing natural conversation options because it never works. It never feels genuine, it always feels forced. Not allowing Shepard to broach the subject of the relationship is a perfect example of this - it simply does not work.



Really, the issue here is that they didn't want to spoil the comics, and they wanted the players to explore the new LIs. It's probably as simple as that. Was it handled well? No.



However, that said, there is a lot of good writing in ME2 as well. I do think that BioWare's marketing machine overstates things a lot, but that's the industry. You should see what it's like where I work, heh.

[Nozybidaj]

Driveninhifi wrote...

Certainly the interaction with Liara is the weakest part of the game. By a large margin, I'd say.
There's an old adage I've mentioned before: Show, don't tell.
They don't do this - they _tell_ the player "Liara is angry now," but they don't show her character development. And that's not acceptable - it's never good. The reasons she gives in game don't stand up to analysis for more than like 10 seconds as well.
The second major problem is limiting the player's responses. When writing a novel, you can have conversations flow a certain way to limit what the reader knows. However, this is a role-playing game: you can't justify removing natural conversation options because it never works. It never feels genuine, it always feels forced. Not allowing Shepard to broach the subject of the relationship is a perfect example of this - it simply does not work.

Really, the issue here is that they didn't want to spoil the comics, and they wanted the players to explore the new LIs. It's probably as simple as that. Was it handled well? No.

However, that said, there is a lot of good writing in ME2 as well. I do think that BioWare's marketing machine overstates things a lot, but that's the industry. You should see what it's like where I work, heh.

There are a few examples of good writing.  Tali I thought was done well right up until they beat you over the head with all the "interspecies" stuff and try and make you feel like crap for romancing her at all.  I thought Mordin was done well, obviously.  I liked Grunt even if it needed more to it.  What I get to see of Jack without romancing her was at least interesting.  In the end though, none of that mattered at all to me because the emotional ties I have to the game are completely absent.  I could care less if Mordin sings till his throat is sore, neglecting such a large part of the first game and the things people are obviously so attached to is an over (or under as the case may be) sight of staggering proportions.

Sorry, but BW blew it, simple as that.  I'll be making sure I am much more wary of their products in the future.  I can guarantee you I won't be getting any Liara related expansion until I know for sure it is going to be worth getting, which means doing the one thing I hate to do more than anything else.  I'm going to have the whole story spoiled for me before I even see it.  I hate having someone spoil a movie or a book or a game for me before I get to experience it myself, but unfortunately that is exactly what I will be doing with BW for now on.

[StinkyNelkin]

Haven't posted in a few days. Just an update:



Liara is still the best ever.

[Srslydude01]

StinkyNelkin wrote...

Haven't posted in a few days. Just an update:

Liara is still the best ever.

you are correct sir:wizard:

[bjdbwea]

Debi-Tage wrote...

I sure hope not! Though it is not my style to be pessimistic, in this regard you may be right. Do any of the devs realize how pissed we are, and do they care?

They know that their game sold very well, and that is the most important thing.

However, today even the worst crap can be sold to the masses (and often it sells best), so being financially successful is far from equal to creating a good game. This is still BioWare, and while I have no idea many of the developers from the old days since BG are still there, I'd think it should be some. They MUST be able to see what works and what doesn't from a storytelling perspective. I also refuse to believe that they'd never read their own forums. Thing is, they can't do anything about it. Everything has to be approved from above, and they have to implement or remove what is decided for them, and in the time that is set for them. And of course they can't just speak their mind either. The gaming industry was different in this once, but today it's professional business and everyone has to fall and stay in line. Especially of course once you've lost your independence as a studio. It's also not as easy as it used to be to leave and join / start a new studio, even less so in the current economic situation, so even if you're unhappy, there's little you can do.

Bottom line: The developers must know how bad the Liara scene is, but if the decision to outsource vital content into a comic or DLC was made, they simply have to cope with it. Likewise, if they are given a tight time limit, they have to make hard decisions of things to cut.

While I can understand this all, I will of course act accordingly and refuse to pay for the result, should it not be appealing enough to me anymore.

But to be fair: If you're looking for good stories and depth, the gaming industry is in a very sorry state anyway. BioWare games are still pretty much the only choice to get a bit more than flashy graphics, huge explosions and cool action.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 04 mars 2010 - 12:45 .

[Nozybidaj]

/shrug Guess I just don't have much to be rosey and cheery about. If they can't take negative criticism along with positive reinforcement and use both of them to make their games better then they are deliberately missing half the picture. Anybody that works on a major project has to have some sort of post release roundup where you examine both the positive and the negative things that you did to try and make it better the next iteration.



If BW looks at anything they did and simply pats themselves on the back and says "Yep good job all around, wouldn't change a thing." and anyone that has a negative opinion is instantly disregarded then there isn't much hope to be had anyway.

[Debi-Tage]

General Stubbs wrote...

In regard to the devs realizing if we are pissed with the Liara reunion.
I realize that Casey Hudson and Mac Walters may never read these boards, but there is probably someone scanning through some of the threads and reporting back on a regular basis.

I guess you can look at it this way: people will almost always get their backs up if they think you are attacking them.
If there are pessimistic discussions going on, the person scanning the threads will report back and just say, "These guys hate what you did in the game". In turn the devs will say "F**k them, we did our best".

If there is optimistic or realistic discussion going on, the person will report back and say, "These guys did not like such and such about the game and are thinking about ways we could fix it". Which may get a reply (or something like it), "Really? What didn't they enjoy about the game?". Which may lead to BioWare actually doing something.

So thinking talking positively is not always for nothing in my experience, people will almost always give a better response or try and fix a problem if they can see that you are trying to help and find ways to contribute yourself.

Just my opinion, I am not trying to say that the devs should not be held accountable for screwing up the Liara reunion, but since the expansion is the only way we will get our Beautiful Blue Goddess back, I am looking for any way to help the process (as is everyone else).

Good point, keep positive and hopeful! Maybe we are just suffering from a little post Redemption 3 depression. Another 5 weeks for anymore Liara news!

[Driveninhifi]

You will always get a better response by being reasonable than by saying "BioWare sucks!"

If you were a developer, you'd probably be mad that people are jumping to conclusions without reading all the comics. They may feel we're being unfair by jumping all over them without all the info.

Maybe the comics do explain things better in the end. Maybe they don't.



I do agree that moving important character development out of the medium of the original story and its sequel was a bad choice. Selling the comic is fine, but the information should have also been in the game. It feels like a cop-out to make the player buy something else to get key info.



I'm also pretty freaking sure that the developers are aware of what is being said on these boards, but keep in mind that it can also be pretty intimidating to wade into super long threads filled with criticism. This thread is pretty reasonable, but other, like the Tali thread, are kind of nuts.



Lastly, I'll say I've been involved with a lot of big projects in the corporate world, and you ALWAYS have to cut stuff, or not implement it. It really sucks, but there are ALWAYS things you wish you'd done better.

[Driveninhifi]

General Stubbs wrote...
Oh, all I meant was pessimism may not get the best response.
You can still point out all the flaws in the game with optimism, but the difference is you would say: "I hate BioWare so much for doing this, they should go F**k themselves". with a pessimistic response.
With optimism you would detail what you thought was wrong with the game and look for reasons it was done and how they could fix it (like everyone here has been doing, good job supporting The Beautiful Blue Goddess ).
Optimism doesn't mean you have to be happy 24/7, it just means you look for ways to solve problems instead of giving up.

Right. Give specifics:
It does not feel natural for someone who is in love with Liara to respond to her apology with "My mission is important" A far more genuine response is "Thank you. I love you." or "Thank you, I didn't know you felt so strongly" (if not a love interest).
As for the presentation:
In ME1, Liara is shy, awkward and outright says she does not know how to interact with people. In ME2 she is presented as a savvy businesswoman who threatens people that do not pay her. This is very hard to believe without seeing how she developed that skillset, as she is the character in ME1 that is LEAST suited to the business end of the world of intrigue. She is likely to be good at disseminating information, but the business end of that world should probably eat her alive. Perhaps she is emulating Shepard and her mother because she has seen that they know how to get things done. Still, it is important to show that this is the same character, and Liara probably would not enjoy nor be good at that sort of thing.

Not trying to attack you or anything Nozy, just sharing my thoughts + experiences.

Modifié par Driveninhifi, 04 mars 2010 - 01:16 .

[Nozybidaj]

Well I think we've all done a pretty good job of that. If the devs do read these threads they have already taken out of it what they want and I doubt they are bothering to read through the entire thread. I don't see much point in just rehashing the same stuff over and over again at this point. /shrug



Nothing wrong with it, gives us something to talk about but I don't really expect any "official" people are still reading or taking notes from these threads.

[Debi-Tage]

Yeah, I get the sense that the Liara in ME2 is trying to be stronger than she really is (deep down) for her own, and Shepard's, sake. They are still crazy over eachother but neither one is sure what the other is feeling and they are not meeting in the middle at the same time, especially with all of the distractions going on for the both of them (and behind the scene issues we can only speculate about).

[Debi-Tage]

Maybe Shepard needs to trust that Liara knows what the right thing to do is!

[vigna]

screwoffreg wrote...

How does Shepard end up with so many socially dysfunctional people?

Garrus: Presumed dead, admits no friends.
Liara: Shy loner, no friends
Tali: Nerd, possibly hot. Lady in the streets, freak in the sheets syndrome.
Jack: Wow, what do you even say here?
Miranda: Im rich and hate my father.
Mordin: I contributed to genocide
Samara: I must kill my daughters.
Kelly: Three way? No problem! Let me just zip into my bondage suit...

If Zaeed is the most normal member of your crew, then Jesus you have a problem.

Dude, where is chapter 3?

[vigna]

You have problems? I just watched 2012...I could have been playing a game. I thought I'd give ME1 a break, but I just sat through the worst movie I've seen in forever.....



It looked like they stole a scene from mass effect1 whne the intercom interrupted a kiss the first kiss...pretty damn close.

[Nozybidaj]

justinnstuff wrote...

Debi-Tage wrote...

Yeah, I get the sense that the Liara in ME2 is trying to be stronger than she really is (deep down) for her own, and Shepard's, sake. They are still crazy over eachother but neither one is sure what the other is feeling and they are not meeting in the middle at the same time, especially with all of the distractions going on for the both of them (and behind the scene issues we can only speculate about).

There's so much going on behind the scenes that we don't know about yet. It's wrong to say it's unsalvageable.

Oh I definitely think it is salvagable.  The overall direction they took, while it isn't what I would have done, isn't a bad one.  We just need to SEE it, like Drivein said, not just be told about it.  

Shepard also needs to not act like he is not deaf, dumb, and blind through the whole thing.

If they do intend to bring out a Liara expansion and they do all the things we are talking about I think things will be fine moving forward.  If they just bring out a mission pack where Liara sends you out to shoot stuff and there is only minimal dialogue between them it'll be a waste.

They can still save what they did in ME2 they just need to not hold back on anything at this point.

[sapphyreelf]

vigna wrote...

You have problems? I just watched 2012...I could have been playing a game. I thought I'd give ME1 a break, but I just sat through the worst movie I've seen in forever.....

It looked like they stole a scene from mass effect1 whne the intercom interrupted a kiss the first kiss...pretty damn close.

That movie hurt my head. Seriously.

Boyfriend decided to drag me to see it, and one of my friends who teaches astronomy and astrophysics to college students was there next to me in the theater. He could do nothing but giggle insanely at the "science" of some of what they were proposing.