50907 réponses à ce sujet

[Noxis6]

Shavon wrote...

@ Noxis6 I just blame Shepard's stoic responses to Miranda's secret control chip. And Miranda? It takes her a bit to come around to things, then she changes her mind/direction. imo.

To me it just seems at times that Shepard can go only two ways angry or apathetic beyond that there is not that much,in any case Shepards writing is overall flawed and lacking
As for Miranda the problem is I dont see her change her mind or direction I see nothing of that she stays the Cerberus cheerleader basicly up until the moment you blow up the base,she might have some symphaties for Shepard for dealing with her sister or she loves him in case of romance,but really I see nothing that tells me that she starts thinking that Cerberus way might be the wrong one to go
Also its not like you can really discuss Cerberus crimes that much with her she basicly gives you her rationalisations of them and Shepard goes

At least with Mordin you could discuss the genophage

[Ecael]

Shavon wrote...

Cartims wrote...

@Ecael.........you talk a lot!

Seriously, though, their recruitment would not have been that difficult. If they are going to blame it on costs and resources, then turn around and say the ME2 sales are going very well, they could have easily justified the cost. So, that's a fail, sorry Ecael.

Cartims wrote...

Ecael wrote...

 BioWare doesn't have a vendetta against Liara either. There are valid reasons for doing what they did, although we won't see until Mass Effect 3 is completed.

So, you seem to know why BW did what they did............tell us!

Very well. I've discussed all three topics in the past, after all.

(Statement 1 - Complications due to Romance)

Consider the plot flag possibilities that may or result JUST for Liara if Liara could join the squad in ME2:

MaleShepard:
-Liara not romanced in ME1/not romanced in ME2/not romanced in ME3
-Liara not romanced in ME1/not romanced in ME2/romanced in ME3
-Liara not romanced in ME1/not romanced in ME2/cheated on Tali with Liara in ME3
-Liara not romanced in ME1/not romanced in ME2/cheated on Jack with Liara in ME3
-Liara not romanced in ME1/not romanced in ME2/cheated on Miranda with Liara in ME3
-Liara not romanced in ME1/not romanced in ME2/cheated on Kelly with Liara in ME3
-Liara not romanced in ME1/romanced in ME2/romanced in ME3
-Liara not romanced in ME1/romanced in ME2/broken up in ME3
-Liara not romanced in ME1/romanced but cheated-on with Tali in ME2/not romanced in ME3
-Liara not romanced in ME1/romanced but cheated-on with Miranda in ME2/not romanced in ME3
-Liara not romanced in ME1/romanced but cheated-on with Jack in ME2/not romanced in ME3
-Liara not romanced in ME1/romanced but cheated-on with Kelly in ME2/not romanced in ME3
-Liara not romanced in ME1/romanced but cheated-on with Tali in ME2, but Tali dies/made up in ME3
-Liara not romanced in ME1/romanced but cheated-on with Miranda in ME2, but Miranda dies/made up in ME3
-Liara not romanced in ME1/romanced but cheated-on with Jack in ME2, but Jack dies/made up in ME3
-Liara not romanced in ME1/romanced but cheated-on with Kelly in ME2, but Kelly dies/made up in ME3
-Liara not romanced in ME1/romanced but cheated-on with Tali in ME2, but Tali dies/not romanced in ME3
-Liara not romanced in ME1/romanced but cheated-on with Miranda in ME2, but Miranda dies/not romanced in ME3
-Liara not romanced in ME1/romanced but cheated-on with Jack in ME2, but Jack dies/not romanced in ME3
-Liara not romanced in ME1/romanced but cheated-on with Kelly in ME2, but Kelly dies/not romanced in ME3
-Liara not romanced in ME1/romanced in ME2/cheated-on with new character 1 in ME3
-Liara not romanced in ME1/romanced in ME2/cheated-on with new character 2 in ME3
-Liara romanced in ME1/romanced in ME2/romanced in ME3
-Liara romanced in ME1/romanced in ME2/broken up in ME3
-Liara romanced in ME1/still romanced but cheated-on with Tali in ME2/not romanced in ME3
-Liara romanced in ME1/still romanced but cheated-on with Miranda in ME2/not romanced in ME3
-Liara romanced in ME1/still romanced but cheated-on with Jack in ME2/not romanced in ME3
-Liara romanced in ME1/still romanced but cheated-on with Kelly in ME2/not romanced in ME3
-Liara romanced in ME1/still romanced but cheated-on with Tali in ME2, but Tali dies/made up in ME3
-Liara romanced in ME1/still romanced but cheated-on with Miranda in ME2, but Miranda dies/made up in ME3
-Liara romanced in ME1/still romanced but cheated-on with Jack in ME2, but Jack dies/made up in ME3
-Liara romanced in ME1/still romanced but cheated-on with Kelly in ME2, but Kelly dies/made up in ME3
-Liara romanced in ME1/still romanced but cheated-on with Tali in ME2, but Tali dies/not romanced in ME3
-Liara romanced in ME1/still romanced but cheated-on with Miranda in ME2, but Miranda dies/not romanced in ME3
-Liara romanced in ME1/still romanced but cheated-on with Jack in ME2, but Jack dies/not romanced in ME3
-Liara romanced in ME1/still romanced but cheated-on with Kelly in ME2, but Kelly dies/not romanced in ME3
-Liara romanced in ME1/romanced in ME2/cheated-on with new character 1 in ME3
-Liara romanced in ME1/romanced in ME2/cheated-on with new character 2 in ME3

FemaleShepard:
-Liara not romanced in ME1/not romanced in ME2/not romanced in ME3
-Liara not romanced in ME1/not romanced in ME2/romanced in ME3
-Liara not romanced in ME1/not romanced in ME2/cheated on Garrus with Liara in ME3
-Liara not romanced in ME1/not romanced in ME2/cheated on Thane with Liara in ME3
-Liara not romanced in ME1/not romanced in ME2/cheated on Jacob with Liara in ME3
-Liara not romanced in ME1/not romanced in ME2/cheated on Kelly with Liara in ME3
-Liara not romanced in ME1/romanced in ME2/romanced in ME3
-Liara not romanced in ME1/romanced in ME2/broken up in ME3
-Liara not romanced in ME1/romanced but cheated-on with Garrus in ME2/not romanced in ME3
-Liara not romanced in ME1/romanced but cheated-on with Jacob in ME2/not romanced in ME3
-Liara not romanced in ME1/romanced but cheated-on with Thane in ME2/not romanced in ME3
-Liara not romanced in ME1/romanced but cheated-on with Kelly in ME2/not romanced in ME3
-Liara not romanced in ME1/romanced but cheated-on with Garrus in ME2, but Garrus dies/made up in ME3
-Liara not romanced in ME1/romanced but cheated-on with Jacob in ME2, but Jacob dies/made up in ME3
-Liara not romanced in ME1/romanced but cheated-on with Thane in ME2, but Thane dies/made up in ME3
-Liara not romanced in ME1/romanced but cheated-on with Kelly in ME2, but Kelly dies/made up in ME3
-Liara not romanced in ME1/romanced but cheated-on with Garrus in ME2, but Garrus dies/not romanced in ME3
-Liara not romanced in ME1/romanced but cheated-on with Jacob in ME2, but Jacob dies/not romanced in ME3
-Liara not romanced in ME1/romanced but cheated-on with Thane in ME2, but Thane dies/not romanced in ME3
-Liara not romanced in ME1/romanced but cheated-on with Kelly in ME2, but Kelly dies/not romanced in ME3
-Liara not romanced in ME1/romanced in ME2/cheated-on with new character 1 in ME3
-Liara not romanced in ME1/romanced in ME2/cheated-on with new character 2 in ME3
-Liara romanced in ME1/romanced in ME2/romanced in ME3
-Liara romanced in ME1/romanced in ME2/broken up in ME3
-Liara romanced in ME1/still romanced but cheated-on with Garrus in ME2/not romanced in ME3
-Liara romanced in ME1/still romanced but cheated-on with Jacob in ME2/not romanced in ME3
-Liara romanced in ME1/still romanced but cheated-on with Thane in ME2/not romanced in ME3
-Liara romanced in ME1/still romanced but cheated-on with Kelly in ME2/not romanced in ME3
-Liara romanced in ME1/still romanced but cheated-on with Garrus in ME2, but Garrus dies/made up in ME3
-Liara romanced in ME1/still romanced but cheated-on with Jacob in ME2, but Jacob dies/made up in ME3
-Liara romanced in ME1/still romanced but cheated-on with Thane in ME2, but Thane dies/made up in ME3
-Liara romanced in ME1/still romanced but cheated-on with Kelly in ME2, but Kelly dies/made up in ME3
-Liara romanced in ME1/still romanced but cheated-on with Garrus in ME2, but Garrus dies/not romanced in ME3
-Liara romanced in ME1/still romanced but cheated-on with Jacob in ME2, but Jacob dies/not romanced in ME3
-Liara romanced in ME1/still romanced but cheated-on with Thane in ME2, but Thane dies/not romanced in ME3
-Liara romanced in ME1/still romanced but cheated-on with Kelly in ME2, but Kelly dies/not romanced in ME3
-Liara romanced in ME1/romanced in ME2/cheated-on with new character 1 in ME3
-Liara romanced in ME1/romanced in ME2/cheated-on with new character 2 in ME3

Now include the possibility that Liara could have a death flag if included in Mass Effect 2. Then include how Ashley/Kaidan would interact if they were included as well, considering they have a death flag in Mass Effect 1.

You can see the logistical nightmare they set up by ever including any romances in the first game and connecting that game to the next.

The simplest way to have solved this in Mass Effect 2 was to instead kill Liara and Ashley/Kaidan in the first Collector attack at the beginning of the game, and only resurrect Shepard. Thus, these plot flags won't get complicated and BioWare can introduce new romances without worry. (I can only imagine the reaction that would result from that -- I'm glad they didn't take that route!)

The best way to have solved all this in Mass Effect 1 was to never make any squadmates romanceable at all - only NPCs instead. Then carry over Kaidan, Ashley and Liara to ME2 where they can then be romanceable from ME2 to ME3. However, they didn't know if and when they would be making two more games at that time; they only set up the save file and plot in the event that Mass Effect 1 was successful - which it was.

BioWare loves to introduce new characters each game - it's their nature. And they love to develop popular characters even further. However, they know people will prefer one over the other and thus include romances for the ones that make sense to be romanceable (notice you can't romance Salarians, Krogans, or DLC characters).

If you do believe that there should have been fewer squadmates or fewer romances, then go into that character's support thread and tell them that their character shouldn't have ever existed.



(Statement 2 - Easy to write in without those complications)

If they really wanted to make Ashley/Kaidan and Liara playable squadmates but have them survive, all they needed to do was three things:

1. Have Kaidan/Ashley and Liara stay on the Normandy to help test the IFF with Joker
2. Kaidan/Ashley get kidnapped because they're human, Liara gets kidnapped because she helped destroy Sovereign (plus, she's the only other person who knows everything like Shepard does from the mind-melding)
3. Give the squadmates Dr. Chakwas-like immunity to liquefaction (they already have immunity to seeker swarms anyway...) and have them automatically escort everyone else back to the ship.

That means Dr. Chakwas, Ashley/Kaidan AND Liara are all guaranteed to survive for ME3, and they get to play significant roles in ME2 at the same time.



(Statement 3 - ME's writers don't like writing too much about romance)

To be fair, romance is - unfortunately - a very small and superficial part of the game. It's optional and has no effect on the main plot. BioWare seems to treat it as a minor side quest with an extra set of dialogue wheels. I've never bothered to complete a romance with any of my main characters, partly because of that.

In order to really satisfy fans of romance in Mass Effect 3 (or what they could have done in Mass Effect 1 or 2, they'll need to improve a couple of things:

1. Extra romance-related dialogue outside the mission (not the Normandy), especially when that squadmate is in danger
2. Some kind of stat, upgrade, ability or synergy bonus when that squadmate is in the group
3. Dialogue choices that actually affect how well the relationship is going (instead of just ON/OFF)
4. Being able to buy gifts to further the relationship (like, say, artifacts for Liara or meds for Thane)
5. Special cutscenes and/or landscapes that unlock on planets/hubs for dates/getaways as the relationship continues
6. Arguments/fights that come up between you and that squadmate that require Paragon/Renegade skill usage

...Just what I can think of right now. Also, it would be nice if we could choose to develop a better bonding with a single character - without romance involved. For example:

1. "Bromance" with Jacob
2. Shepard reciprocating Legion's feelings by worshiping the geth
3. Calibrating with Garrus
4. Becoming Mordin's lab assistant

If they can do (or did) at least some of those things, then we can be assured that the love interests in this game actually matter to BioWare. As it stands, none of the romances have any more useful dialogue throughout the game than a first date.

(Disclaimer: First date assuming that the other person doesn't elect to go to the movies - why do people always pick movies? You don't even get a chance to talk to them...)

Modifié par Ecael, 19 mai 2010 - 05:07 .

[Jack Package]

jlb524 wrote...

Jack Package wrote...

Yes, I wasn't sure if it was from this interview or from the forums. Asheer just said that it was in the interview...
It's not only disrespectful, ridiculous or sad, most of all it does not make any sense.<_<

It makes no sense to me since all my Shepards are lesbians.

I guess Jacob is that awesome he can turn lesbians straight.

No regardless of orientation. If you were dead and you have been conscious only for a brief amount of time and you still have to figure out what happenend with you and your mind then smexey time with Jacob is certainly NOT the first thing you desire when you are back on your feet.

The sleaze of the Jacob dialogue is a shame, apart from this he actually is awesome in my opinion.

[Pacifien]

Asheer_Khan wrote...
Sorry to burst your bubble but ME games are NOT TRILOGY!

After ME 2 introduction those games become no more no less but STAND ALONES  connected ONLY by name Mass Effect in title.
*snip*

But if you view the game as being Shepard's story and how he handles the Reaper threat, and that all reaches a conclusion with ME3, then you kinda do have a trilogy there. Especially if they don't make a game about Shepard and the Reapers again.

Not saying Bioware wouldn't make other games based on the ME universe, just think they specifically want to tell Shepard's war against the Reapers in three parts.

[Erinlana]

Can Femshep Romance Kelly... O_O

[jlb524]

Erinlana wrote...

Can Femshep Romance Kelly... O_O

Depends on how you define, 'romance'.

[Erinlana]

jlb524 wrote...

Erinlana wrote...

Can Femshep Romance Kelly... O_O

Depends on how you define, 'romance'.

I am "assuming" Light Flirting ..

[Pacifien]

Noxis6 wrote...
*snip*
As for Miranda the problem is I dont see her change her mind or direction I see nothing of that she stays the Cerberus cheerleader basicly up until the moment you blow up the base,she might have some symphaties for Shepard for dealing with her sister or she loves him in case of romance,but really I see nothing that tells me that she starts thinking that Cerberus way might be the wrong one to go

Unfortunately, any evidence of her changing views on Cerberus are entirely dependent on you bringing her to certain missions to hear her comments. For instance, she doesn't approve of what they did at the Teltin Facility, but she's adamant that the Teltin cell has gone rogue. Implies that she believes the only way a Cerberus cell could do such atrocious experimentation is if they were working against Cerberus ideals.

But probably the biggest moment that shows Miranda's faith in Cerberus, and the Illusive Man in particular, is if you take her to the Collector ship and she hears EDI say there is no way the Illusive Man wouldn't know the ship was a trap. She gets flustered and says the Illusive Man wouldn't do that to them, but of course, Shepard's conversation with him after the mission does prove the Illusive Man would do that to them.

[jlb524]

@Ecael



So, one point you make is that the logistics of carrying over romanceable characters is too much to handle, but then you say the writers don't like writing romances that much? I am aware that there would have been many possible combos just with Liara, but what if it only affected one or two conversations? That doesn't seem too bad to me. It's not like the romance is integrated throughout the entire game.



Beside, in ME3, there are now 9 total LIs (plus Kelly if you want to count her). How are they going to handle it any better in ME3 when they couldn't handle 3 in ME2?

[bjdbwea]

jlb524 wrote...

Erinlana wrote...

Can Femshep Romance Kelly... O_O

Depends on how you define, 'romance'.

I think it's more romantic than the "real" romances in ME 2. For the most part, that is. At the end it's all thrown away with one of the worst examples of writers disgracing their own characters I've ever seen.

[jlb524]

Erinlana wrote...

I am "assuming" Light Flirting ..

That, and dinner, 'dancing'.

[jlb524]

bjdbwea wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Erinlana wrote...

Can Femshep Romance Kelly... O_O

Depends on how you define, 'romance'.

I think it's more romantic than the "real" romances in ME 2. For the most part, that is. At the end it's all thrown away with one of the worst examples of writers disgracing their own characters I've ever seen.

That's true...it would have been a great romance if Kelly had a nice little scene like the others received.  Instead, we got the...

SPOILERZ





Strippin'

[jlb524]

Cartims wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Erinlana wrote...

Can Femshep Romance Kelly... O_O

Depends on how you define, 'romance'.

Oh.......please define it for me.

Well, in game terms, the Kelly romance has no bearing on anything.  You can complete it, and still stay 'faithful' to your old LI.  It's not a romance on par with the others, as far as for the devs taking it seriously.

[ratzerman]

jlb524 wrote...
That's true...it would have been a great romance if Kelly had a nice little scene like the others received.  Instead, we got the...

SPOILERZ

Strippin'

But da strippin wuz hawt.

[bjdbwea]

jlb524 wrote...

Well, in game terms, the Kelly romance has no bearing on anything.  You can complete it, and still stay 'faithful' to your old LI.  It's not a romance on par with the others, as far as for the devs taking it seriously.

I don't know about the "taking it seriously" part. The only things missing were the (playable) dinner scene, and an appropriate scene at the end (a fade to black would have sufficed). The rest certainly felt more real and alive to me than any of the actual romances. It's obvious they invested effort into her character.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 19 mai 2010 - 05:27 .

[Nozybidaj]

jlb524 wrote...
Beside, in ME3, there are now 9 total LIs (plus Kelly if you want to count her). How are they going to handle it any better in ME3 when they couldn't handle 3 in ME2?

Agreed, BW couldn't even manage to carry over 3 romances from ME1 to ME2.  I think there is going to be tons of disappointment for everyone come ME3.

[Ecael]

Cartims wrote...

@Ecael........this is just YOUR theory, with no bases in fact from Bioware, then speak for yourself, and don't try to imply you are on the inside track. Opinions.......we all have them!

Yeah, but when I complain, I try to find a reason to justify what happened or find a solution to the problem.

On these forums, people complain, and find a reason to complain some more. No initiative to investigate why they might have done it or a way to improve things - just pleading for the moderators to answer their questions for them and saying either "Make it just like ME1!" or "Make it just like ME2!" as feedback.

I may not be a moderator and I may not like how the writers treated some of the characters, but the last thing I want the forum to become is this:

jlb524 wrote...

Beside, in ME3, there are now 9 total LIs (plus Kelly if you want to count her). How are they going to handle it any better in ME3 when they couldn't handle 3 in ME2?

They don't have to worry about a Mass Effect 4 - and if they did make one, it won't have any of the characters from the trilogy.

Simplest solution for BioWare is to make the resulting fight like the Tali/Legion or Jack/Miranda arguments - but that would be rather disappointing.

Who knows what they have in store... it's not like they can disclose that information beforehand without spoiling the game (and EA hates that most of all).

[Noxis6]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

Aren't there a ridiculous amount of flags for the ME1 and 2 LIs anyway? Liara has to have a unique confrontation scene with every single ME2 LI, or a possible confrontation with Shepard if the ME2 LI died. The ME2 LI will have to react differently based upon Shepard's actions. There will need to be an altered romance path afterwards if you have cheated. Then you throw Kelly into the mix...

I'm not sure how their execution in ME2 has made it any easier at all. It's still just as complicated, with as many different permutations. The effects on Liara's romance alone are vast.

Frankly if they shove all ME2 squadmates into meaningless cameos in ME3 and "saving" Liara,Ash/Kaidan just meant they get a even bigger cameo its an easy way out since there is no possibilty of conflict so no reason to make confrontation scenes
And I have a feeling that will be sort of the way to go

On a sidenote concerning romances in general I still think the Baldurs Gate2 ones were never really surpassed and even some of the player made ones for that are not that bad